January 21, 2009

Bruce Maccabee Interviews Ernie “Hawk” Kellerstrass


2007 Mufon Symposium According to the publication, "An Estimate of the Situation: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis," presented at the 2007 MUFON International UFO Symposium, allegedly an AF Colonel (possibly former) and Rick Doty contacted Moore initially in September of 1980.  Taking this date into consideration, it’s important to dig further back into the ongoing activities of these individuals prior to 1980, before they started interfacing more often with UFO researchers.  The important clues in tracing back the activities of Rick Doty and any other individuals involved in the MJ12 scam include following where same philosophy might have showed up prior to making its appearance in the materials passed to Pratt, Moore, Howe, and so many other researchers after 1979/1980.

2005 – Bruce Maccabee Releases Hawk Tales

Hawk Tales , a 2005 article written by Bruce Maccabee, was described by Bruce himself as a "supplement" to Robert Collins’ 2005 book Exempt from Disclosure .   This background document was largely forgotten during the aftermath of Exempt from Disclosure and much of the Serpo-related drama that followed.  However, this intriguing document written by Bruce Maccabee provides a great deal of hidden treasures.  In it, Maccabbee writes:

“This article presents a book’s worth of information that was left out of the book , information that provides a historical foundation for Collins’ investigation.”

You can often learn more about the items that are left out , than you do from the items found within.

Not only does Maccabee’s Hawk Tales provide a historical foundation – it also shares a great deal of information concerning Collins (and Doty’s) sources.  This article includes references to names and events that took place at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in 1979 and earlier.  Keeping in mind the identities of Moore’s sources of the bogus Aquarius and MJ-12 information (Rick Doty and other individuals who present themselves as "Air Force"), in Maccabbee’s writeup we learn a little more information about those sources, and what went on in the years just before Moore  and other UFO researchers were contacted and fed regurgitated UFO stories and information.

In the introduction, Maccabee writes:

“One of the main sources of information was a Lt. Col. Of the Air Force, herein referred to by his ‘aviary’ code name, ‘Hawk’ (as explained in the book, pg 8).  Hawk retired from the Foreign Technology division (FTD) at Wright Patterson Air Force Base (WPAFB) in 1979, about 4 years before Collins started working there.  Collins learned about Hawk’s interest in the UFO subject from a mutual acquaintance .  Subsequently, Hawk provided valuable information to Collins’ research activities in the latter half of the 1980’s."

Hawk, as most researchers who are familiar with the famed Aviary as defined by Moore now know, is Ernie Kellerstrass. In the article, Macabbee describes some of the information Kellerstrass shared with him in this interview held in 1985 and 1986.  As Maccabee points out in his introduction, this information Kellerstrauss was sharing with him in this interview was only 5 years after the publication of Moore and Berlitz’s book The Roswell Incident .  Even more significantly, it was also a year before the alleged “MJ-12” documents and information would be released to the general public .  Bruce Maccabee had little idea, at the time of these interviews, that a group of “insiders” were also talking to Moore, Pratt, Shandara, Howe, and others about the same exact ideas and during the same time period.  It appears that by 1985, those responsible for spreading those documents were finally out in full force and interfacing with a whole list of Ufologists in an effort to get the "core story" out into the UFO arena.

However, Macabbee’s document in particular, when placed within the context of other events that were taking place at the Foreign Technology Division at Wright AFB during this same exact time period mentioned in the document (1975 through 1979) – reveal striking parallels and lead amazingly close to a revelation regarding the source of this disinformation (MJ12), and possibly the motive.

The Maccabee – Kellerstrass Interview in 1985

The article continues on with a transcript of the conversation Maccabee had with Kellerstrass in 1985.  The conversation goes over a multitude of events and names of sources from many years before this 1985 interview, mostly from the 70’s – and those are the critical points that we want to focus on in order to try to identify where the “core story”, or MJ12 philosophy, first started making an appearance.

I will highlight the critical parts of the series of Maccabee/Kellerstrass conversation here:

Bruce Maccabee In the first part of the interview, Kellerstrass describes his only two eye-witness accounts of UFO’s.  One was witnessing some models of experimental aircraft at Wright AFB that matched stereotypical descriptions of UFO’s (cigar and saucer), as well as witnessing an event where a jet that had been scrambled to intercept a UFO over Japan got shot down.  Other than those two “eye-witness” events – he admits that everything else he "knows" about Aliens and UFO’s were told to him through 1st and/or 2nd hand accounts.

By the third conversation – Kellerstrauss provides the name of one of his central sources, who turns out to be none other than “this one fellow in 1978” – Dale Graff .  The comical part of this interview is that Kellerstrass assumes that Dale Graff didn’t know that Ernie’s "other source" was also in touch with him (Ernie).  He is completely oblivious to the possibility that Graff and the other source could actually not be “independent from the other” at all.  Ernie claims that the matching information from two sources proves it’s true…overlooking the possibility that matching information from two sources could indicate collaboration.

Interview Excerpts:

H – Ernie Kellerstrass, B – Bruce Maccabee

“December 19, 1985

H:    Everything I have relayed (regarding Bob) is from that one visit, what, 1963 or 4, sometime in there.
B:    Yeah, you said 1964.
H:    Yeah, when I was there in ’64. So all I do is relate that plus things that were confirmed by this one fellow (Dale Graff) in 1978 .  So my information is only until 1978 or early ’79, that time frame.  And what it was is that in ’78-79 the conversations were with somebody (Dale) completely independent from the other (Bob. H)…(DG) who did not know that I knew the other information (from Bob.H. ).”

A little further down in the conversation, Graff gets mentioned again, and this time Maccabee, hearing the name for the first time, asks for more specific information about him.

Interestingly, Kellerstrass attempts to brush off the name as “Just a fellow who was in the office.” However, it becomes quite apparent before long that Dale Graff is actually a central source of most of the more sensational parts of the story.  In particular, the parts that we now recognize today (in 2009) as making up much of the core of what exists in the MJ12 documents, and serves as a central philosophy of the documents – as well as the central philosophy for almost all related releases that would eventually come from Rick Doty and his group down the road – including Project Serpo in 2005.

“B:    Oh.  So he probably didn’t need any clearance to tour the FAA facility.
H:    Right,  He didn’t do the other part.  But he took the tour.  It was all planned back then.   Although Dale Graff told me in the spring of ’79 that everything was as I had said.  He told me (what he knew), and then later on I told him what I knew, and he said, “Yes, it’s still there.”
B:    Hmmmm.   And, uh, who is that?
H:    Just a fellow who was in the office.  He’s super, super, super sensitive, but he’s the guy….
B:    A guy who was in the office where you worked?
H:    Yeah, where I worked.  He’s the guy that… We were talking one day and he said “You should have read the book. Then you’d get some really interesting information.”
B:    Oh, yeah.  OK.
disclosure-alien H:    And then he told me about this book (a reference to the “Yellow Book”?).  He said there were about 40 copies but they were all controlled.  I asked if it was possible to see the book and he said “No, it was just sent back six months ago.”
B:    That was in ’79?
H:    That was early ’79.  So that means the book was sent back sometime in ’78, like either 3 or 6 months before.  So, does that match in with the other book?  (I think this is a reference to the Project Aquarius report.)
B:    We don’t really know the….
H:    …..the publication date?
B:    No, we don’t know that.
H:    Well, he (Graff?) told me the publication was either ’76 or ’77.
B:    Oh, yeah.  Right.  That would agree..
H:    It was what he told me at the time.  Anyway, thing that is interesting is that he told me the name of the people, the race, where they were from and a whole bunch of other little things.  And when RC was talking the other day about a report he had, and he didn’t tell me much about it because told him I didn’t want to know, uh, it turned out that ¾ of what he said was the same .  And the other guy (Dale Graff, referred to herein as DG) said he had read the book.  He said it was about a 100 page book.  In fact, he said it was over that.  He said it was about…let me get back my memory…he said it was a couple if inches thick, hard bound.  Now the thing that is interesting is that he said Dr. Cacciopo (referred to herein as Dr. C ) got the book.  It was sent to him.
B:    Who is that?
H:    He’s the Chief Scientist.  (Dr. Anthony Cacciopo, at that time Chief Scientist at FTD, herein called “C”.)”
B:    Uh, huh!   (Note:  Collins knew Dr. C but had not yet approached him on this subject.)
H:    And, when I talked about the committee meeting, or what have you, (i.e., the committee in charge of UFO/AFC research mentioned above as meeting in a lodge at the northern edge of Albuquerque near the tramway; MJ-12?),  he (DG) said he had accompanied him (Dr. C) out there to these meetings.
B:    This guy you are talking about DG had accompanied Dr. C….?
H:    Dr. C.  And he said Dr. C had attended these meetings.  So what that tells me is, I suspect that Dr. C is a member or a chief advisor to the committee.  Because that is the only way DG knew all of that information that matched with what I had known. "

The next segment of the conversation outlines more of the details which we’ve finally come to recognize.  But the important part of this statement is that the information was coming from Dale Graff in 1979 – around the same time Doty was starting to build up his own activity within Ufology (upcoming reports will detail that activity), as well as the year (1979) when Bruce Maccabee started interfacing with CIA (Kit Green), and it was also the year Bruce noticed that there was an "intersection" between the parapsychology research and Ufology.

The interview as published in Hawk Tales is quite long, but any researcher interested in the history of the MJ12 releases and the source of those documents should carefully read through this interview.  The discussions are too long to outline here, but the following important points were raised in the remainder of the interview.  According to Ernie Kellerstrass:

  • Dr. Dr. Anthony Cacciopo allegedly let Dale Graff read "the book" in 1978, and Dale told Ernie in 1979 what was in the book.
  • The Air Force had 5 (types of) aliens, and "some live ones," and were hiding one
  • Provided early history from 10,000 years ago up to the time of Christ
  • The planet they came from had a double sun
  • Dale Graff and Dr. Cacciopo went to Davis-Monthan AFB to a "major meeting on UFOs"
  • An "OSI fellow" took Dale and two other Army folks Southwest of the AFB to a vault where they "had ‘em (aliens) in pictures and they had ‘em in tanks"
  • The U.S. had bodies or parts of bodies of three of the five types of aliens
  • An "Arizona group" consisting of 3 males, 2 females (captured in Utah) were originally alive
  • Alien bodies had no nose, round mouth, no ears, no hair, elliptical eyes, and looked like stereotypical alien
  • They (aliens) were vegetarians (based on food found in a tray in the craft)
  • Everyone called the aliens EBE1, EBE2, etc…

Dale Graff

Allegedly Dale Graff described "the book" to Ernie as being about two inches thick, with just under 40 copies available, brown in color and "coded."  Ernie continues to describe his conversations with Dale Graff during the late 1970′s as follows:

"Every once in a while we’d talk at the end of the day and he used to like to talk about the whole paranormal field and all the exotics.  I won’t elaborate but we use to talk for hours on end;  Out of body experiences and all that sort of thing, and he knows that I’ve had some of those experiences ever since I was little and tiny.  So, he used to feel real comfortable talking with me.  And every once in a while he would bring out these oddities related to UFOs.  And he brought out both of those incidents (B52 and trip to Arizona base).  He didn’t elaborate much on them other than that they occurred and the essence of them."

The above interview, if we are to assume that Kellerstrass is passing on an honest version of stories that he was allegedly told, reveals that Dale Graff, as early as 1978, was privately discussing the same exact themes and ideas (the “Philosophy”) that would eventually make its way into the early 80’s versions of the MJ-12 documents, and eventually, Project Serpo.  In 1978, we have Dale Graff discussing:

(1)    A secret book containing information about “EBE”, multiple alien races
(2)    Early history from 10,000 years ago to the time of Christ
(3)    Captured Alien Craft and Bodies/Prisoners
(4)    Aliens as vegetarians
(5)    Their star-system having a double-star, or double-sun.

Other than discussing Aliens with Kellerstraus back in 1978, as outlined in our last article , Dale Graff was acting as a civilian physicist with the Air Force FTD division, and had given a small contract to the SRI research team in order to test the Soviet hypothesis that psi was transmitted via ELF (extremely low frequency) electromagnetic waves.

As outlined in our previous articles, 1978-1979 was clearly a very important year in Remote Viewing research for many reasons.  Additional events of note that took place within this time frame included:

  • DIA took over funding and tasking for the government’s overall RV research.
  • Kit Green began communicating with Maccabee for as much UFO information as possible.
  • Maccabee recognizes this date as signifying the sudden interested of the “RV” folks in the field of ufology.
  • Dale Graff, scientist with Air Force FTD RV program, has been working closely with SRI (Hal Puthoff) on a secret  RV project since 1975.
  • Dale Graff and Dr. Anthony Cacciopo were both involved in the AF Blue Book investigations that took place at Wright AFB.

All of the information listed above, which was supposedly being discussed privately as early as 1978, examined within the context of everything else going on during the same time period, suggests a significant series of events and the beginning of a "movement," which would eventually involve a number of prominent UFO researchers, and turn into one of the longest-running and most significant UFO hoaxes of all time.







4 Comments

  1. avatar

    [...] we previously reported, the 2005 article Hawk Tales by Bruce Maccabee was written as a supplement to Robert Collins’ 2005 book Exempt from [...]

    Pingback by The Philosophy Within the MJ-12 Documents « Reality Uncovered — March 10, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

  2. avatar

    This information is useful and important, on the face of it. As a seeker of truth, not invested in any belief system, and one who acknowledges the problems inherent with the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis, I welcome attempts to uncover hoaxes and misinformation. But I ask myself, “who are the people behind Reality Uncovered?” I don’t see any bios, credentials, e-mail and other expected info when I looked at “about us” on your menu bar. Forgive me for not knowing who you are, as I have not been immersed in the UFOlogy community. My recent forays into various Forums caused me to be dismayed at the level of belief-based thinking and arguing, bickering, back-stabbing, slander, presumption, and downright poor thinking…so I backed out pretty quick. But you guys (and/or gals), and the UFO Iconoclasts, stand apart from the crowd, and seem a little more objective. Where on this site can I learn more about who you are, and what motivates you? Thank you for enlightening me.

    Comment by Michael — March 11, 2009 @ 3:13 am

  3. avatar

    Hi Michael – thank you very much for your kind words about our work and our forum, and also for your question, it’s a very good one. As you can see, we’ve spent most of our efforts on investigation and research, and probably not enough time putting together those important pieces of our site, like the bio area. Stephen Broadbent and I (Ryan Dube), started RealityUncovered in 2006 to house our Serpo investigations. Since then it’s expanded into wider Ufology. We also have a new third admin/investigator named Tom who lives on the West Coast and currently works in a research lab. Steve lives in the UK and his expertise is network administration, as well as linguistics. I live in the Eastern U.S. and my expertise is Electrical Engineering and writing.

    We plan to create full bios on this site soon, but until then you can at least see at least *my* full bio at http://topsecretwriter.blogspot.com, a parallel blog I used to comment on these stories as we move forward. We’re three regular guys who have gotten into Ufology research for the same reasons most other people do – but we’ve decided to take a more straightforward, scientific and balanced approach. The mission of RU is to bring credibility back to the field…and part of that is destroying the misinformation and disinformation that’s been distributed by many groups. Thanks again for your comment and I hope this helps!

    Comment by RyanDube — March 11, 2009 @ 5:28 pm

  4. avatar

    [...] why we’re here folks. That’s why we’re here. Ernie Kellerstrass – Read this interview he offered Bruce Maccabee barely a year before the MJ-12 scam was released upon the UFO crowd. Need [...]

    Pingback by Top Secret Writers : Another Round of Disclosures, Shall We? — May 6, 2009 @ 1:09 am

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