The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby ryguy » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:57 pm

Okay -that's cool, but what do you propose "non-normal" research means one should use to learn more about those connections? If official documents were allegedly destroyed - what evidence exists that makes you think they ever existed in the first place?

-Ry
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby mavn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:31 am

Well, I would go into a little more detail but I keep getting timed out when I submit my response then everything I have written goes away. So the short answer is normal research locations such as public libraries.
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby mavn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:37 am

And not normal research would include family histories/anthologies, myths, legends, legacies and of course rock art.
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby ryguy » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Mavn, I'm not sure why you keep getting timed out - unless it takes you a very long time to type up posts? Try typing it in notepad first, then log into RU just to paste the post and submit, that way you won't get timed out. I'd hate to see you keep losing quality posts!

As for using myths and legends in research, one has to be very careful doing that because picking and choosing which parts of myths to call "fact" and which are elaborations can muddy up research to the point of making the entire research project completely useless. To many myths and legends are created by groups and communities to further their particular belief systems, factually based or not. This means that while local legends and myths are certainly fascinating and very entertaining (I love writing about them), they should never be seriously integrated into a historical study about the historical facts about a religion. Written family histories or journals, however, I'd definitely agree are very valuable historic records!

Of course, as I'm sure you know, the problem with Native American history is that the culture is very much based on an oral history, not a written one. Which leaves a researcher with only legends and myths, unfortunately. Leaving much of the true Native American past a real mystery, revealed with only glimmers of vague facts through an intriguing mist of storytelling.

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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby mavn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:36 am

Yes, I agree with you that in most cases that probably would be true. However, when a society engages in continual warfare for extended periods of time and it's people are reduced to the mere cries of children because the adult males and females have been killed or taken into captivity then the stories of these young ones might seem simple and child-like but in reality are based on truth just the same.
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby ryguy » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:39 pm

True, but no one knows what parts of the stories are based on truth, and what parts are elaboration. Sometimes not even the storyteller who's passing on the story knows.

A good example is the Native American creation story retold by Navajo (and other tribal) storytellers. Those have to be the most beautiful and symbolic stories I've ever heard - the Trickster, "first man" and "first woman", and the many levels through which humanity has passed through...these stories put many modern-day sci-fi authors to shame with creativity and imagination. But to interpret those stories literally is dangerous - it would be like reading the Christian bible literally. A lot of people do that - but those folks are headed down a path of confusion and self-deception, convinced about alleged "truths" that simply don't really exist. The same is true about many of the writings from the groups (orders) that you mentioned in your posts above. Proverbs and prophecies are obscure and heavily symbolic for a reason, and folks who offer their interpretations as a "truth" are fooling themselves.

This is, in fact, how cults are born.

-Ry
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:22 pm

ryguy wrote:True, but no one knows what parts of the stories are based on truth, and what parts are elaboration. Sometimes not even the storyteller who's passing on the story knows.


Which includes the storytellers espoused by the Catholic Church.

But to interpret those stories literally is dangerous - it would be like reading the Christian bible literally. A lot of people do that - but those folks are headed down a path of confusion and self-deception, convinced about alleged "truths" that simply don't really exist. The same is true about many of the writings from the groups (orders) that you mentioned in your posts above. Proverbs and prophecies are obscure and heavily symbolic for a reason, and folks who offer their interpretations as a "truth" are fooling themselves.

This is, in fact, how cults are born.


Which is precisely why I maintain that the Catholic Church is one of the most successful cults the world has ever seen. Virgin birth? Death & resurrection? I have pointed out before that these, and other claims that are part of the Nicene Creed, were myths borrowed from cults that existed prior to the Catholic Church.

It certainly is everyone's inherent right to believe whatever myths they want. But it is sad when they believe myths are true just because a group says you have to in order to be a "true" member of their group.

Religion has just about worn out its welcome on this rock, IMO. Obviously, it has caused bigger problems than it has solved.
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby ryguy » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:52 pm

I agree completely Ray. As I said, many Christians (Catholics included, obviously) have literally interpreted the bible for years. Many church leaders aren't excluded from that.

But that doesn't mean the cults of today provide a better alternative. They simply represent more of the same wrapped up in ribbons and bows made more appealing to the contemporary masses.
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Re: The Imperfections & Failings of The Catholic Church

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:05 pm

ryguy wrote:But that doesn't mean the cults of today provide a better alternative. They simply represent more of the same wrapped up in ribbons and bows made more appealing to the contemporary masses.


I totally agree. That was why, after a brief "taste" of the OTO, I decided I did not need to be part of them to study the Tree Of Life. Science is the only "cult" that I would willingly be part of. :lol:

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