Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:18 am

DARPA (I have the names) ...

P.S. re: the experiment, Chiao writes:

The quantum approach taken here is in stark contrast to the classical, test particle approaches being taken in contemporary, large-scale gravity-wave experiments,which are based solely on classical physics. The back-actions of classical measuring devices such as Weber bars and large laser interferometers upon the incident gravitational fields that are being measured, are completely negligible.

Hence they can only detect gravity waves from powerful astronomical sources such as supernovae [1], but they certainly cannot generate these waves.

Specifically, I would like to explore here the quantum physics of Planckmass–scale “Millikan oil drops” consisting of electron-coated superfluid helium drops at milli-Kelvin-scale temperatures in the presence of Tesla-scale magnetic fields, as a means to test whether some of these back-action effects really exist or not.

I am in the process of performing some of these experiments with my colleagues at the new 10th campus of the University of California at Merced in order to test some of these ideas. These experiments have become practical to perform because of advances in ultra-low temperature dilution-refrigerator technology.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Access Denied » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:14 pm

LOL you clearly didn’t read the ESA study Gary… either that or you know you’re simply way out of your league here and grasping at straws again by blindly recycling Chaio’s arguments.

Let me try to explain it for the benefit of others one last time…

Chiao For Dummies [like me]

[from the ESA Study]

3.2.2 General remarks about the (classical) interaction strength of gravitational waves with quantum fluids

In [55, 56], it is argued heuristically that gravitational waves should couple more strongly to quantum fluids than to classical materials because, due to the macroscopic phase coherence, the length scale of the material is (in principle) not limited to an acoustic wavelength λs = vsT of the material, where vs is again the speed of sound and T the period of the gravitational wave. Due to the classical coupling via acoustic waves, classical matter used as an antenna for gravitational waves is restricted to roughly the size λs. In the quantum coupling, this restriction may not apply. Since the macroscopic quantum coherences in quantum fluids can in principle be of the same length scale as the gravitational wavelength λ, it is suggested that one could in principle, because the length restrictions do not apply in quantum fluids, replace the speed of sound vs in the material by the speed of light c.

[snip technical stuff]

Furthermore, it is suggested that through ‘impedance’ matching of the gravitational wave to the quantum fluid, an enhanced conversion between the two fields can be obtained.

[snip technical stuff]

These expectations are, however, based on heuristic considerations and not on detailed calculations.

From the above arguments, one could expect that couplings between gravitational fields and quantum fluids be enhanced compared to the coupling to classical matter. However, even with the increase of the efficiency, as argued by Chiao, it is questionable whether this leads to effects which are large enough to be detected. Furthermore, it is important to note that the arguments are based on the classical efficiency formula derived by Weinberg [44]. Since this derivation is based on classical properties of the detector such as sound waves in the material, it is not clear whether these arguments can be applied to quantum fluids. Generally, a theory regarding the quantum nature of the (macroscopic) coherences would have to be considered. It should be noted that (classical) Weber bars have been studied in the quantum regime by using quantum nondemolition measurements (see e.g. [65, 66]). A quantum measurement analysis is also crucial for the detection of gravitational-wave signals in current interferometer experiments [67].

And…

3.2.3 Quantum-mechanical coupling considerations

Now we want to discuss the quantum-mechanical arguments used to explain the coupling between the electromagnetic and gravitational fields. Again, these are based on the existence of macroscopic phase coherence that leads to the generation of electromagnetic radiation and, by means of time reversal, to the detection of electromagnetic waves by generating gravitational waves [55].

[snip technical stuff]

It is now argued by Chiao et al. [55] that in the presence of a gravitational wave, the electron wave function should also pick up a Berry-type phase which, due to its spin, would lead to a macroscopic electric current which, in turn, would produce electromagnetic waves. Assuming time-reversability, the opposite process of the conversion of electromagnetic waves into gravitational waves should also be possible.

[snip technical stuff]

On algebraic grounds, it could certainly be possible that the resulting coupling terms between the electromagnetic and gravitational fields vanish due to the properties of the γ-matrices. It is, however, highly recommended that this derivation be performed in order to gain insight into the possibility of such a coupling as well as its strength.

[snip technical stuff]

It should be noted here that in a conversion process between electromagnetic and gravitational fields described by (47), momentum conservation must be obeyed, either by the addition of momentum as supplied by the medium (e.g. strong magnetic fields in the quantum Hall fluid) or by considering electromagnetic quadrupole fields (e.g. in the conversion processes involving superconductors) [57].

That darn Newton raises his ugly head again... i.e. it could go either way.

And finally re: Chaio’s experimental “results”…

3.2.4 Experimental and quantitative theoretical results

We know of only one experiment which has been carried out in a laboratory framework where a quantum fluid is supposed to act as a transducer between gravitational and electromagneticwaves. In this experiment [57], superconducting yttrium barium copper oxide (YBCO) was used as a transducer. Two probes were used, one as a generator and the other as a detector of gravitational waves. Electromagnetic quadrupole radiation with a frequency of 12 GHz is shone upon the first transducer, producing gravitational radiation which falls upon the second superconductor, where the generated electromagnetic quadrupole radiation is detected. In order to prevent direct electromagnetic coupling, the two superconductors are enclosed by Faraday cages.

At least in this relatively simple setup, there has been no detection of generated gravitational waves, which, according to Chiao et al. [57], gives an upper conversion efficiency of η < 1.6 × 10−5 (if one assumes equal conversion efficiencies from one form of wave to another). Chiao et al. argue that this negative result may be due to

• possible high residual microwave and far-infrared losses in YBCO, or
• generally large ohmic dissipation arising from high temperatures; this could be reduced at lower temperatures.

It is possible that the experimental conditions could be improved for this situation. However, since there is as yet no evidence for a coupling of such strength as to be detectable, it would be preferable first to investigate that matter theoretically.

As I said before this amounts to putting the cart before the horse…

Far be it for me to disagree with Ron but I’m afraid it’s back to the drawing board for Chaio for the foreseeable future. There’s really nothing more to discuss until…

a) a theoretical basis is established and
b) this theory is tested experimentally and
c) the experimental results are independently verified


Good luck to Dr. Chaio but again, even if he succeeds, developing a “gravity radio” for use by the military [or aliens] would still be incredibly impractical for reasons apparently beyond Gary’s ability to comprehend.

I realize this “debate” has been and will continue to be a colossal waste of time… I can only hope that my efforts will serve as a guide for others wishing to separate the scientific wheat from the pseudoscientific chaff promoted by people like Gary and Co.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:15 pm

To keep this as simple as possible, it comes down to the following:

A full working theory of quantum gravity does not exist, despite the best efforts of string theory and other lesser known approaches.

Chiao has shown there are experimental situations where this uncertainty in our knowledge can be tested using currently available technology.

New data can dramatically alter current working theory: A current example is the discovery of dark energy which was discovered from observations, and was NOT predicted by theory.

AD continues to point to the CLASSICAL arguments, whereas most would argue for the fundamental nature of quantum theory.

The "G" in the equations for gravity has only been tested to scales of about a tenth of a millimeter. It might be different at smaller scales (it could approach 10^40 times Newton's G!).

The paper cited by AD states:

To knowledge, there exists no general non-relativistic derivation of the coupling of an electron to both eletromagnetic and gravitational fields, neither in the post-Newtonian approximation nor in the background of a
gravitational wave. Thus, it is not possible to make predictions about the coupling strengths. It is highly
recommended that this derivation be performed in order to gain qualitative as well as quantitative results.


They summarize with:

Yet, as stated before, we recommend that, even though these effects are interesting in their theoretical origin and should be investigated further, this should be done in a theoretical context to arrive at quantum coupling mechanisms which could lead to experimental results.


Clearly, this is not the wisest approach, as shown by dramatic discoveries such as dark energy, which theory failed to predict.

When considering effects with dramatic national security implications, it is even more important not to examine every possible lead, especially those that can be readily tested under existing laboratory conditions.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:58 am

Gary wrote:A full working theory of quantum gravity does not exist, despite the best efforts of string theory and other lesser known approaches.

For once we agree on something… progress!

Gary wrote:Chiao has shown there are experimental situations where this uncertainty in our knowledge can be tested using currently available technology.

I wouldn’t get my hopes up… Chaio hasn’t shown anything yet other than efficiency <</≪ 1.

Gary wrote:New data can dramatically alter current working theory: A current example is the discovery of dark energy which was discovered from observations, and was NOT predicted by theory.

Not quite… at this point new data isn’t likely to "dramatically alter" anything and dark energy is looking more and more like the cosmological constant.

"A lot more testing is needed, but so far Einstein's theory is looking as good as ever."

[ref. Einstein's “Greatest Blunder”]

Gary wrote:AD continues to point to the CLASSICAL arguments, whereas most would argue for the fundamental nature of quantum theory.

So says the man who just acknowledged quantum theory is incomplete.

Gary wrote:The "G" in the equations for gravity has only been tested to scales of about a tenth of a millimeter. It might be different at smaller scales (it could approach 10^40 times Newton's G!).

Or not… either way it doesn’t change the macroscopic world we live in.

[though one would be wise to avoid getting too close to a black hole]

Gary wrote:Clearly, this is not the wisest approach, as shown by dramatic discoveries such as dark energy, which theory failed to predict.

Confucius say man who think too far outside box have phenomenological problem.

Gary wrote:When considering effects with dramatic national security implications, it is even more important not to examine every possible lead, especially those that can be readily tested under existing laboratory conditions.

If you replace dramatic with imaginary that sentence might actually make sense.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:52 pm

AD failed to point out that the cosmological constant IS the energy of empty space (the vacuum energy):


http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_accel.html

What is a Cosmological Constant?

Einstein first proposed the cosmological constant (not to be confused with the Hubble Constant) usually symbolized by the greek letter "lambda" (Λ), as a mathematical fix to the theory of general relativity. In its simplest form, general relativity predicted that the universe must either expand or contract. Einstein thought the universe was static, so he added this new term to stop the expansion. Friedmann, a Russian mathematician, realized that this was an unstable fix, like balancing a pencil on its point, and proposed an expanding universe model, now called the Big Bang theory. When Hubble's study of nearby galaxies showed that the universe was in fact expanding, Einstein regretted modifying his elegant theory and viewed the cosmological constant term as his "greatest mistake".

Many cosmologists advocate reviving the cosmological constant term on theoretical grounds. Modern field theory associates this term with the energy density of the vacuum. For this energy density to be comparable to other forms of matter in the universe, it would require new physics: the addition of a cosmological constant term has profound implications for particle physics and our understanding of the fundamental forces of nature.

The main attraction of the cosmological constant term is that it significantly improves the agreement between theory and observation. The most spectacular example of this is the recent effort to measure how much the expansion of the universe has changed in the last few billion years. Generically, the gravitational pull exerted by the matter in the universe slows the expansion imparted by the Big Bang. Very recently it has become practical for astronomers to observe very bright rare stars called supernova in an effort to measure how much the universal expansion has slowed over the last few billion years. Surprisingly, the results of these observations indicate that the universal expansion is speeding up, or accelerating! While these results should be considered preliminary, they raise the possibility that the universe contains a bizarre form of matter or energy that is, in effect, gravitationally repulsive. The cosmological constant is an example of this type of energy. Much work remains to elucidate this mystery!

There are a number of other observations that are suggestive of the need for a cosmological constant. For example, if the cosmological constant today comprises most of the energy density of the universe, then the extrapolated age of the universe is much larger than it would be without such a term, which helps avoid the dilemma that the extrapolated age of the universe is younger than some of the oldest stars we observe! A cosmological constant term added to the standard model Big Bang theory leads to a model that appears to be consistent with the observed large-scale distribution of galaxies and clusters, with WMAP's measurements of cosmic microwave background fluctuations, and with the observed properties of X-ray clusters.
WMAP and the Cosmological Constant

By characterizing the detailed structure of the cosmic microwave background fluctuations, WMAP is able to accurately determine the basic cosmological parameters, including the cosmological constant, to better than 5%.
Further Reading:

* Donald Goldsmith, "Einstein's Greatest Blunder? The Cosmological Constant and Other Fudge Factors in the Physics of the Universe", (Harvard University Press: Cambridge, Mass.) A well written, popular account of the cosmological constant and the current state of cosmology.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:37 pm

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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:20 am

Here are some excerpts from an excellent read on the "problem of the cosmological constant":

"Physics thrives on crisis....Unfortunately, we have run short of crises lately. The 'standard model' of electroweak and strong interactions currently faces neither internal inconsistencies nor conflicts with experiment. It has plenty of loose ends; we know no reasy why the quarks and leptons should have the masses they have, but then we know no reason why they should not.

Perhaps it is for want of other crisis to worry about that interest is increasingly centered on one veritable crisis: theorteical expectations for the cosmological constant exceed observational limits by some 120 orders of magnitude." (Weinberg 1989, p.1).

No doubt many would be disappointed if there turns out to be no good reason, after all, to take the zero-point energy seriously.


I'm going to re-post my post from June 2007, after particular Serpo release was published that also promoted a particular solution to the cosmological constant question regarding the Casimir effect. Of course the Serpo release did it in a grammar school sort of way...because the authors believe that the pajama wearin', trailer-livin', general public is too stupid to understand quantum theory dontchyaknow...

***start paste***


Serpo's Love of Zero Point Energy


Well...someone certainly wants to promote Zero Point energy - the ability to suck energy from a vacuum. Is it coincidence that a physicist who is also quite involved in Zero Point research was a member of the now-infamous team of five? Maybe.

Here are some more "coincidences" for your entertainment. Make sure to read all the way down - they get better toward the bottom...

From Serpo relase 24 on June 20th (emphasis mine)

In THIS system things are different. There is an UNKNOWN METHOD by which
the atoms are changed. Instead of ionic or covalent bonds, this new
system creates a THIRD TYPE of bonding principle. This new type of
bonding causes atoms to take on a different form. Atoms go from a normal
state -- and when I say "normal," I mean normal in OUR science -- to a
"multiplexed" form. In other words, the atoms are doubled or
"piggy-backed" onto each other.

The atoms are somewhat mutated, but maintain their original shape. I
KNOW THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND. That is why we still DON'T understand it. I'll give you a simple example.

If you can recall basic chemistry, you will remember that a hydrogen
atom consists of a single proton -- the nucleus -- with one electron in
a captive state. When two hydrogen atoms approach each other, their
combined energy becomes lower
if they SHARE their electrons. Well, in
this new system, a hydrogen atom, subjected to this new system (inside
this propulsion system) changes to a NEW principle.


The following is from an Earthtech International, Inc. report written in 2000 entitled Ground States and the Zero-Point Field by H.E. Puthoff, Ph.D., Scott Little, and Michael Ibison, Ph.D.

We measured the vibrational ground state energy of H2 molecules indirectly by measuring the molecular dissociation energy. If the ground state energy were reduced, the dissociation energy would necessarily increase correspondingly.

The dissociation energy of H2 has been accurately measured[4] by observing the location of the absorption edge that occurs at about 84.5 nm (14.7 eV - EUV). This edge corresponds to photodissociation of the molecule into one ground state H atom and one H atom in the 1st excited electronic state (+10.2 eV). The difference, about 4.5 eV, is the dissociation energy.



From the Serpo Release:

First, when two hydrogen atoms approach each other, their combined
energy level becomes MULTIPLIED through this strange bonding principle.
So, instead of having a lower energy level, the energy is MULTIPLIED by
the number of atoms of hydrogen that is bonded. If we used the QUANTUM
IDEA to understand this, we would conclude that quantum principles do
NOT work in this new system.

Normally, in our system, positively-charged ions attract and bond to
negatively-charged ions to form molecules. This is NOT the case in this
new system. It makes NO difference whether the ions are positive or
negative as they bond together regardless of valence. We do know that
inside this propulsion system, something causes these strange unnatural
phenomena to occur.



From the Earthtech report:

It has been shown[3] that a charged harmonic oscillator immersed in the zero-point field (ZPF) will reach dynamic equilibrium with the ZPF when the oscillator energy is equal to ħw /2, where w is the oscillator frequency. Diatomic molecules have vibrational modes that closely approximate those of a harmonic oscillator at low energy levels. The ground state energy of such molecules is also given by ħw /2, where w is the molecular vibration frequency. We hypothesize that these molecular ground states are not fixed and immutable, as suggested by quantum theory, but are a result of dynamic equilibrium with the ZPF. We tested this hypothesis by measuring the vibrational ground state energy of H2 molecules placed into a Casimir cavity that suppresses the ZPF frequencies at the corresponding molecular vibration frequency (1.32 X 1014 Hz, 2.2 micron wavelength).



From The Serpo Release:

Two plates of metal sit inside a chamber. This chamber is a vacuum. The
chamber is a PERFECT VACUUM, that is, there is no outside air or other
gases inside this chamber.



From Eathtech

We employed a parallel-plate Casimir cavity made from two 1/20 wave optical flats (aluminized for conductivity) placed face-to-face with 1 micron thick spacers to hold them apart. This spacing is slightly less than half the wavelength of the pertinent radiation so it was largely excluded from the cavity interior in two of the three spatial dimensions.



Serpo:

A tube running from one chamber into another, pushes a gas inside. A third chamber forces still another gas to enter the first chamber. We know that the gases push against these two plates of metal and cause an ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO BE CREATED.


From Earthtech

The cavity was filled with H2 gas via a hole drilled in the center of one of the flats.


Serpo

Lastly, just before the gases are "mixed," there is a form of light that
is focused against the outgoing energy. This light is of a lower
frequency. Normally, in our quantum theory, a small frequency means a
lower energy. However, is this system, the lower frequency of light was
measured to contain an enormous amount of energy exerted upon this
outgoing energy. When I left in 1988, we could NOT understand how the
gases were mixed nor could we determine HOW the light was generated.


From EarthTech

EUV radiation entered the cavity, propagated through the H2 gas there, then through a subchamber behind the cavity and into a scintillation detector. The subchamber, normally kept evacuated, was employed for reference purposes. Using an external valve manifold, it could be filled with H2 gas (and the cavity evacuated) to obtain the ordinary absorption spectrum for comparison to the absorption spectrum of the H2 gas in the Casimir cavity.



Oh...and this part is my favorite...you're going to love this.

From Serpo:

Dr McPherson retired at the Federal Civil Service grade of GS-16. Dr
McPherson was born on April 8, 1920 in Scranton, PA. Dr McPherson served
in the U.S. Army Infantry in Europe from June 1944 until October 1946.
Dr McPherson obtained the military rank of Sergeant at the time of his
discharge. Dr McPherson attended Penn State University, the University
of Pennsylvania and MIT.


From the Earthtech Report:

This photo shows most of the 4 meter normal incidence monochromator on our beamline. The entrance and exit slits are just beyond the edge of the photo to the right.

The grating housing is mounted on a massive granite slab engraved with “McPherson.” Judging by the price of their smaller monochromators, the cost of this massive ultra-high vacuum instrument must have been astronomical.


I bet it was! Anyone thirsty for funding?

Oh...left out the best part:

Unfortunately, our experimental results therefore neither prove nor disprove our hypothesis. The small size of the observed effect seems to tip the scales in favor of disproof…. but we cannot be certain without further experimentation. We are presently engaged in evaluation of new approaches to this experiment.


****end paste***

What we're seeing are basically INFOMERCIALS for this crap constantly distributed throughout Ufology communities.

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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:43 am

ryguy wrote:What we're seeing are basically INFOMERCIALS for this crap constantly distributed throughout Ufology communities.

GREAT analogy Ryan… that’s a keeper! Nice job weeding out the sales pitch from the Serpo material.

I like this slide called “Zero Point Shenanigans” from the last link Gary posted…

http://online.kitp.ucsb.edu/online/cmb0 ... oh/17.html

Beware ZPE perpetual motion!
(Call the Patent Office!)”


[he probably missed that one]

Anyway, no Gary, I haven’t “failed to point out that the cosmological constant IS the energy of empty space (the vacuum energy)”… you’re making a mistake if you think that’s a given at this point.

Positive cosmological constant

Observations made in the late 1990s of distance–redshift relations indicate that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. When combined with measurements of the cosmic microwave background radiation these implied a value of [Omega Lambda] = ~0.7, a result which has been supported and refined by more recent measurements. There are other possible causes of an accelerating universe, such as quintessence, but the cosmological constant is in most respects the most economical solution. Thus, the current standard model of cosmology, the Lambda-CDM model, includes the cosmological constant, which is measured to be on the order of 10^−35 s^−2, or 10^−47 GeV^4, or 10^−29 g/cm^3, or about 10^−120 in reduced Planck units.

The point I was making is the “problem” with “dark energy” is with quantum theory, not general relativity or classical physics…

[they still work]

Cosmological constant problem

A major outstanding problem is that most quantum field theories predict a huge cosmological constant from the energy of the quantum vacuum.

This conclusion follows from dimensional analysis and effective field theory. If the universe is described by an effective local quantum field theory till the Planck scale, then we would expect a cosmological constant of the order of Mpl^4. As noted above, the measured cosmological constant is smaller than this by a factor of 10^120.

Here’s where you’re confused…

Vacuum energy

The existence of vacuum energy is also sometimes used, outside of mainstream physics, as controversial theoretical justification for the possibility of free energy machines. It has been argued that due to the broken symmetry (in QED), free energy does not violate conservation of energy, since the laws of thermodynamics only apply to equilibrium systems. However, consensus among particle physicists is that this is incorrect and that vacuum energy cannot be harnessed to do usable work. In particular, the second law of thermodynamics is unaffected by the existence of vacuum energy.

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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:39 am

Ryan and AD:

Posting SERPO nonsense is not a good substitute for genuine understanding of the problem at hand -- the existence of a cosmological constant -- and acceleration of the expansion of the universe.

And to add to the mystery, dark matter 'particles' have yet to be discovered.

Although it is true that the vacuum energy density prediction from quantum field theory "is the worst prediction in all of physics," to paraphrase mainstream authors of physics books, the existence of a cosmological constant and acceleration of the universe is evidence of new physics outside the standard model.

The situation is not entirely unlike the one faced by classical physicists confounded with the need to explain the atom just prior to the discovery of the quantum theory.

One paper of interest to this discussion is here http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0604062

Vacuum Energy: Myths and Reality
Authors: G.E. Volovik
(Submitted on 14 Apr 2006 (v1), last revised 10 Jul 2006 (this version, v4))

Abstract: We discuss the main myths related to the vacuum energy and cosmological constant, such as: ``unbearable lightness of space-time''; the dominating contribution of zero point energy of quantum fields to the vacuum energy; non-zero vacuum energy of the false vacuum; dependence of the vacuum energy on the overall shift of energy; the absolute value of energy only has significance for gravity; the vacuum energy depends on the vacuum content; cosmological constant changes after the phase transition; zero-point energy of the vacuum between the plates in Casimir effect must gravitate, that is why the zero-point energy in the vacuum outside the plates must also gravitate; etc. All these and some other conjectures appear to be wrong when one considers the thermodynamics of the ground state of the quantum many-body system, which mimics macroscopic thermodynamics of quantum vacuum. In particular, in spite of the ultraviolet divergence of the zero-point energy, the natural value of the vacuum energy is comparable with the observed dark energy. That is why the vacuum energy is the plausible candidate for the dark energy.

Comments: 24 pages, 2 figures, submitted to the special issue of Int. J. Mod. Phys. devoted to dark energy and dark matter, IJMP style
Subjects: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); Astrophysics (astro-ph); Statistical Mechanics (cond-mat.stat-mech); High Energy Physics - Phenomenology (hep-ph)
Journal reference: Int.J.Mod.Phys.D15:1987-2010,2006
DOI: 10.1142/S0218271806009431
Cite as: arXiv:gr-qc/0604062v4
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:32 am

We realize the issue you're discussing is the ongoing cosmological constant debate among quantum physicists. The point here isn't that we take any side on the matter, at least I don't (AD might...lol) - my only reason for posting "Serpo nonsense" is to point out that there's actually real data stuffed into the old text that mirror the side of the debate that certain people promote, in order to further their zero point energy research in a community where their funders spend a fair amount of time and interest.

Gotta give it to you - if I were working on zero point research, I'd definitely want you as my promoter, you're relentless.

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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Gary » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:59 am

Ryan, the main point I am trying to make is that there are REAL (and often subtle) ISSUES in MAINSTREAM PHYSICS concerning vacuum energy, etc.

The REAL ISSUES are often the subject of hotly debated arguments and points of view in a field where specialization often distances various researchers from understanding each other.

It is also true that REAL ISSUES are often confounded by "Not Even Wrong" ideas or incomplete arguments.

Another problem is the disconnect between engineering types and theoretical physicists.

For physics the early 21st century is an exciting time because old models, long suspected to be incomplete, are now confronting solid observational evidence requiring new physical understanding. A similar situation lead to the quantum theory at the beginning of the 20th century and resulted in our modern world of microelectronics and nuclear energy.
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:25 am

Why would CK tell Dan at the recent meeting that you can't be trusted?? Seems like a rather...odd...thing to say?
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby murnut » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:44 am

ryguy wrote:Why would CK tell Dan at the recent meeting that you can't be trusted?? Seems like a rather...odd...thing to say?


Maybe because CK doesn't want Dan talking to Gary?

Or because Gary is wise to the "methods"?
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Re: Pelican 2, Bluejay & Owl 0

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:05 am

murnut wrote:Or because Gary is wise to the "methods"?

What "methods" to accomplish what exactly? Be specific.
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