"The Weird Desk"?

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"The Weird Desk"?

Postby Gary » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:46 am

I found this account by Maccabee in an old email from the 1990s (I don't know if it is still on line):

HOW DID RON PANDOLFI AT THE CIA COME TO BE INVOLVED IN UFO INVESTIGATIONS IN 1984

Well, Kit Green, whom I had met in 1978 when I went to the CIA to talk about the New Zealand sightings, I went there with some fear and trepidation without knowing what the heck was going on. I knew they had radar experts and I thought maybe they could help me with some of the radar and if there was anything TOP SECRET that happened to be flying around in New Zealand at the time. But basically, what it amounted to was that I gave them a lot of information and they gave me nothing.

But I did meet this guy, Kit Green...There was an intersection point between remote viewing and UFOs...But there was this intersection point where the psychics started zeroing in on UFOs and the people in the paranormal side were saying, 'This can't be. UFOs aren't real.'

So they had to start investigating what was going on in the UFO community. Green, as the head of the weird desk at the CIA, was aware of all this in the paranormal and remote viewing and he was part of the intersection with UFOs.

Kit Green left the CIA in the early 1980s and Ron Pandolfi took over what Kit Green was doing. Pandolfi is a very smart guy and he ended up doing a lot of different research. Being in charge of the weird desk was only
part of it. But also he was worried about the laser zapping gap which is why he contacted me in the first place back in 1984.

He started talking to me about UFO stuff. In 1987, we had the MUFON symposium at American University in 1987 and there was a lot of publicity about it. So, Ron Pandolfi invited me to give a talk at the CIA about UFOs. It was to be an open talk, that is in the sense that anybody at the agency could show up from secretaries, case workers and so on. And he told me that the room it was in was the Director's Conference Room. There was a big long table in it and
so many people showed up all the chairs in the room were taken up. People were standing around the outside. And guess what I told them? I told them about their own CIA files.

I went through all the stuff we knew about the CIA and sightings and Pandolfi told me afterward that I created a lot of spies in the agency. People who were trying to dig up stuff that might be buried here and there.

That's sort of how he got involved in this stuff.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby oboe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:59 am

Gary, do you believe everything you read in books? Being a physicist working on communications for national security and being in charge of the weird desk at the CIA are two different things. Ron seems to have an addiction to practical jokes, so it's likely the whole weird desk think is just another practical joke from Ron's quite active and "weird desk" imagination.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:25 pm

oboe wrote:Gary, do you believe everything you read in books? Being a physicist working on communications for national security and being in charge of the weird desk at the CIA are two different things. Ron seems to have an addiction to practical jokes, so it's likely the whole weird desk think is just another practical joke from Ron's quite active and "weird desk" imagination.


Here is what we know about the so-called weird desk:

The "weird desk" is a label for file collection and monitoring of paranormal or UFO-related phenomena.

The "weird desk" is real (or was, at least in the 1970s. Presumably the file collection still exists, somewhere in the archives).

We know the "weird desk" files exist because they are referenced in declassified CIA documents from the DCD -- CIA's Domestic Collection Division, the arm of CIA allowed to collect intelligence inside of the US. Author Howard Blum writes about DCD collection concerning UFO reports in his book Out There.

Maccabee claims Ron took over the file collection from Kit Green. Dan Smith claims Ron eliminated the paper trail: it is suggested that the trail was transferred to a private intelligence operation (Bob Bigelow's efforts come to mind as an example of a funded and organized private collection operation. Kit Green was on the NIDS Science Advisory Board (according to Dr. Eric Davis, Coast to Coast interview with George Knapp, on April 1, 2006).

In addition, it was (apparently) Mark Pesses of the ODNI who was allegedly tasked to make a member list of the DIA TIGER "UFO" team for Ron (according to Sarfatti). I believe this is a reference to the IAS Austin and Hal Puthoff/Eric Davis' work for Meade of the USAF. The $25,000 USAF teleportation study by Davis comes to mind.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:23 am

Reality Uncovered…

[official disclosure of the truth behind the role of Gary’s hero Kit and Dan’s hero Ron at the CIA]

CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... s/ufo.html

[emphais added and attribution annotated in red by AD for the hearing impaired]

The 1970s and 1980s: The UFO Issue Refuses To Die

[…]

During the late 1970s and 1980s, the Agency continued its low-key interest in UFOs and UFO sightings. While most scientists now dismissed flying saucers reports as a quaint part of the 1950s and 1960s, some in the Agency and in the Intelligence Community shifted their interest to studying parapsychology and psychic phenomena associated with UFO sightings. [i.e. Kit] CIA officials also looked at the UFO problem to determine what UFO sightings might tell them about Soviet progress in rockets and missiles and reviewed its counterintelligence aspects. [i.e. Ron] Agency analysts from the Life Science Division of OSI [i.e. Kit] and OSWR [i.e. Ron] officially devoted a small amount of their time to issues relating to UFOs. These included counterintelligence concerns that the Soviets and the KGB were using US citizens and UFO groups to obtain information on sensitive US weapons development programs (such as the Stealth aircraft), the vulnerability of the US air-defense network to penetration by foreign missiles mimicking UFOs, and evidence of Soviet advanced technology associated with UFO sightings. [i.e. Ron]

CIA also maintained Intelligence Community coordination with other agencies regarding their work in parapsychology, psychic phenomena, and "remote viewing" experiments. [i.e. Kit] In general, the Agency took a conservative scientific view of these unconventional scientific issues. [i.e. Ron] There was no formal or official UFO project within the Agency in the 1980s, and Agency officials purposely kept files on UFOs to a minimum to avoid creating records that might mislead the public if released. (90)

Here’s the source of the above…

(90) See John Brennan, memorandum for Richard Warshaw, Executive Assistant, DCI, "Requested Information on UFOs," 30 September 1993; Author interviews with OSWR analyst, 14 June 1994 [i.e. Ron] and OSI analyst, 21 July 1994. [i.e. Kit] This author found almost no documentation on Agency involvement with UFOs in the 1980s.

There is a DIA Psychic Center and the NSA studies parapsychology, that branch of psychology that deals with the investigation of such psychic phenomena as clairvoyance, extrasensory perception, and telepathy. The CIA reportedly is also a member of an Incident Response Team to investigate UFO landings, if one should occur. This team has never met. The lack of solid CIA documentation on Agency UFO-related activities in the 1980s leaves the entire issue somewhat murky for this period.

Much of the UFO literature presently focuses on contactees and abductees. See John E. Mack, Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1994) and Howard Blum, Out There (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990).

Nice book plug at the end there from Kit.

So yeah, there were two people with an “official” interest in UFOs at the CIA in the 70s and 80s…

Two more than the Air Force.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:36 pm

Access Denied wrote:Reality Uncovered…

[official disclosure of the truth behind the role of Gary’s hero Kit and Dan’s hero Ron at the CIA]

CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... s/ufo.html

[emphais added and attribution annotated in red by AD for the hearing impaired]

The 1970s and 1980s: The UFO Issue Refuses To Die

[…]

During the late 1970s and 1980s, the Agency continued its low-key interest in UFOs and UFO sightings. While most scientists now dismissed flying saucers reports as a quaint part of the 1950s and 1960s, some in the Agency and in the Intelligence Community shifted their interest to studying parapsychology and psychic phenomena associated with UFO sightings. [i.e. Kit] CIA officials also looked at the UFO problem to determine what UFO sightings might tell them about Soviet progress in rockets and missiles and reviewed its counterintelligence aspects. [i.e. Ron] Agency analysts from the Life Science Division of OSI [i.e. Kit] and OSWR [i.e. Ron] officially devoted a small amount of their time to issues relating to UFOs. These included counterintelligence concerns that the Soviets and the KGB were using US citizens and UFO groups to obtain information on sensitive US weapons development programs (such as the Stealth aircraft), the vulnerability of the US air-defense network to penetration by foreign missiles mimicking UFOs, and evidence of Soviet advanced technology associated with UFO sightings. [i.e. Ron]

CIA also maintained Intelligence Community coordination with other agencies regarding their work in parapsychology, psychic phenomena, and "remote viewing" experiments. [i.e. Kit] In general, the Agency took a conservative scientific view of these unconventional scientific issues. [i.e. Ron] There was no formal or official UFO project within the Agency in the 1980s, and Agency officials purposely kept files on UFOs to a minimum to avoid creating records that might mislead the public if released. (90)

Here’s the source of the above…

(90) See John Brennan, memorandum for Richard Warshaw, Executive Assistant, DCI, "Requested Information on UFOs," 30 September 1993; Author interviews with OSWR analyst, 14 June 1994 [i.e. Ron] and OSI analyst, 21 July 1994. [i.e. Kit] This author found almost no documentation on Agency involvement with UFOs in the 1980s.

There is a DIA Psychic Center and the NSA studies parapsychology, that branch of psychology that deals with the investigation of such psychic phenomena as clairvoyance, extrasensory perception, and telepathy. The CIA reportedly is also a member of an Incident Response Team to investigate UFO landings, if one should occur. This team has never met. The lack of solid CIA documentation on Agency UFO-related activities in the 1980s leaves the entire issue somewhat murky for this period.

Much of the UFO literature presently focuses on contactees and abductees. See John E. Mack, Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1994) and Howard Blum, Out There (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990).

Nice book plug at the end there from Kit.

So yeah, there were two people with an “official” interest in UFOs at the CIA in the 70s and 80s…

Two more than the Air Force.


AD, although the above is interesting (as a limited SECRET level account from CIA's Studies in Intelligence, the information I am referencing comes from declassified DCD documents (Domestic Collection Division). For the record, Dr. Green was the Senior Division Analyst with the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence (Source: PROPOSAL TO THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION NSF 04-23).

"At the CIA, Dr. Green was the Senior Division Analyst with the Office of Scientific and
Weapons Intelligence. In this role he had multi-disciplinary research and management
experience in medicine, comparative biology, bioengineering, animal and human physiology,
endocrinology and the Life Sciences. Special areas of management experience included the
direction of research of doctoral-level and physician scientists in the above areas as well as
participation as senior analyst."

Green continues as "Member: NAS/NAE/NRC Advanced Technology DIA / Airforce Commission on
Intelligence"

CIA collection within the US, however, falls under the DCD.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:39 pm

And you should NEVER confuse "UFO" with "extraterrestrial aliens."

Some fun 'secrets' now outed from the US government's files (in case anyone here is naive enough to believe AD that it was only Kit and Ron):

Image

Image

Image


More ... http://www.starpod.org/SPECIAL/STAR_GAT ... rgate4.htm

Also see:

Official DIA STAR GATE briefing from 1994:

http://starstreamresearch.com/SPECIAL/S ... fing_1.htm

Briefing for the Secretary of the Army (INSCOM):

http://starstreamresearch.com/SPECIAL/M ... page_1.htm
Last edited by Gary on Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:43 pm

For the record, AD, Kit left CIA in 1985. So your 1990s reference to Kit must be in error.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby murnut » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:14 pm

Gary wrote:For the record, AD, Kit left CIA in 1985. So your 1990s reference to Kit must be in error.



Why did he leave?

Was it voluntary?
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:36 pm

murnut wrote:
Gary wrote:For the record, AD, Kit left CIA in 1985. So your 1990s reference to Kit must be in error.


Why did he leave?

Was it voluntary?


Unknown re: motivation to move into the private sector;in 1985 he took a job with GM, ultimately leading to his position below:

GM Public Policy Center (PPC) & GM Asia Pacific (AP),1999 – 2003
Chief Technology Officer, Asia Pacific

However, he has continued as a high-level private sector consultant to the government.

Note for the record, years after Green left CIA, the Department of Defense was issuing Memorandums concerning psychic spy data targeting the first Gulf War:

Image
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby murnut » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:59 pm

So it is possible Green was fired from the CIA?

How long did he work there?
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:09 pm

murnut wrote:So it is possible Green was fired from the CIA?

How long did he work there?


Unknown: but he does continue to consult to the agency.

He worked at CIA from 1969-1985.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:24 pm

Gary wrote:For the record, Dr. Green was the Senior Division Analyst with the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence (Source: PROPOSAL TO THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION NSF 04-23).

I was informed by an official source in a position to know that Kit’s resume contains “a lot of fiction”.

Gary wrote:And you should NEVER confuse "UFO" with "extraterrestrial aliens."

And you should NEVER confuse "extraterrestrial aliens" with Remote Viewing and Psychokenis…

Gary wrote:Some fun 'secrets' now outed from the US government's files (in case anyone here is naive enough to believe AD that it was only Kit and Ron):

That has nothing do with UFOs and…

“This includes an inventory and analysis of the files held in the CIA, while it adminstered the program, as well as in the DIA.” (past tense)

…is consistent with one CIA person (Kit) that…

“…maintained Intelligence Community coordination with other agencies regarding their work in parapsychology, psychic phenomena, and "remote viewing" experiments.”

Gary wrote:For the record, AD, Kit left CIA in 1985. So your 1990s reference to Kit must be in error.

You mean he disappeared off the planet and couldn’t have been interviewed in 1994?

Gary wrote:Unknown: but he does continue to consult to the agency.

Prove it.

And I notice you didn't really answer Andy's question about Kit being fired from the CIA....
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:03 am

Access Denied wrote:
Gary wrote:For the record, Dr. Green was the Senior Division Analyst with the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence (Source: PROPOSAL TO THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION NSF 04-23).


I was informed by an official source in a position to know that Kit’s resume contains “a lot of fiction”.

Gary wrote:And you should NEVER confuse "UFO" with "extraterrestrial aliens."


And you should NEVER confuse "extraterrestrial aliens" with Remote Viewing and Psychokenis…

Gary wrote:Some fun 'secrets' now outed from the US government's files (in case anyone here is naive enough to believe AD that it was only Kit and Ron):


That has nothing do with UFOs and…

“This includes an inventory and analysis of the files held in the CIA, while it adminstered the program, as well as in the DIA.” (past tense)

…is consistent with one CIA person (Kit) that…

“…maintained Intelligence Community coordination with other agencies regarding their work in parapsychology, psychic phenomena, and "remote viewing" experiments.”

Gary wrote:For the record, AD, Kit left CIA in 1985. So your 1990s reference to Kit must be in error.

You mean he disappeared off the planet and couldn’t have been interviewed in 1994?

Gary wrote:Unknown: but he does continue to consult to the agency.

Prove it.

And I notice you didn't really answer Andy's question about Kit being fired from the CIA....


AD: Perhaps you didn't notice? The source for Kit's job history was not from Kit's CV but from a National Science Foundation document. But many of the same details are related in various open-source government-sponsored documents.

In any case, you seem to have forgotten all about poor old "Norm," the CIA person who ran operations for remote viewing at CIA in the 1980s. He also appeared on live TV with Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to talk about STAR GATE (ABC News Nightline with Ted Koppel in 1995).

Re: the UFO and alien etc. issue.

It is always helpful to distinguish any unidentified [corrected] object or phenomenon from pop-level sci-fi inspired interpretations.

So on that point I basically agree; however, 'phenomenology' is broad enough to include some UFO/ET claimed phenomena. The ET/paranormal USG connection begins with Ingo Swann and Uri Geller (possibly earlier, but the trail is less clear).

Here is another bio, provided by the National Academies of Science:

Christopher C. Green, Chair, is the assistant dean for Asia Pacific of the Wayne State School of Medicine (SOM) in Beijing, China. He is also a clinical fellow in neuroimaging/MRI in the Department of Diagnostic Radiology and the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neurosciences of the SOM and the Detroit Medical Center (DMC). His medical specialties are brain imaging, forensic medicine and toxicology, and neurophysiology, and his personal medical practice is in the differential diagnoses of neurodegenerative disease. He has served and continues to serve on many government advisory groups and private sector corporate boards of directors. Immediately prior to his current position, he was executive director for emergent technology research for the SOM/DMC. From 1985 through 2004 he was executive director, Global Technology Policy, and chief technology officer for General Motors’ Asia-Pacific Operations. His career at General Motors included positions as head, Biomedical Sciences Research, and executive director, General Motors Research Laboratory for Materials and Environmental Sciences. His distinguished career with the CIA extended from 1969 to 1985 as a senior division analyst and assistant national intelligence officer for science and technology. His Ph.D. is from the University of Colorado Medical School in neurophysiology, and his M.D. is from the Autonomous City University in El Paso, Texas/Monterey, Mexico, with honors. He also holds the National Intelligence Medal and is a fellow in the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. Dr. Green is a current member of the National Research Council’s Standing Committee on Technology Insight—Gauge, Evaluate, and Review (TIGER).
Last edited by Gary on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Gary » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:29 am

From the PBS Secrets of the Dead report:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previou ... rview.html

(His current work, he says, is a logical outgrowth of his service at the CIA -- where he still serves as a consultant. At the CIA, Green studied how the brain responds to chemicals and neurological agents, while also investigating foreign advances in biological terrorism and chemical warfare).

Btw "The series has received ten CINE Golden Eagle Awards, five Gold Camera Awards at the US International Film & Video Festival, three News and Documentary Emmy Award nominations and a Chicago International Silver Hugo, among numerous other honors."

AD, are you claiming PBS has been presenting falsified information? Are you prepared to testify to that point in a court of law? Or are you merely spreading rumors? Your source?
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Re: Saving the world?

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:45 am

Gary wrote:
Access Denied wrote:
Gary wrote:For the record, Dr. Green was the Senior Division Analyst with the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence (Source: PROPOSAL TO THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION NSF 04-23).

I was informed by an official source in a position to know that Kit’s resume contains “a lot of fiction”.

AD: Perhaps you didn't notice? The source for Kit's job history was not from Kit's CV but from a National Science Foundation document. But many of the same details are related in various open-source government-sponsored documents.

[…]

Here is another bio, provided by the National Academies of Science:

Who do you think wrote those bios Gary?

Some homework for you...

1. Google "Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence" in quotes and note ALL the results are circular references to (information provided by) Kit.

2. Now show me an official reference to the "Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence" at the CIA.

[not to be confused with the Office of Scientific and Weapons Research (OSWR), Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI), or the Office of Weapons Intelligence (OWI)]

EXTRA CREDIT: What year were the OSI and OWI merged to form the OSWR?

P.S. That you have failed to provide any independent evidence that “he does continue to consult to the agency” has been duly noted.


ETA: Shades of Lazar's forged W-2 from the "Department of Naval Intelligence" that doesn't exist... however the "Office of Naval Intelligence" does.
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