Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Access Denied » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:00 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:I just cannot understand how you guys (the RU3) continue to allow Gary to change the subject, avoid questions, and continue to allow him to play his commercials for Ron, Dan, & Stargate Co.

Fatigue... :)

(which, by the way, is why I don't debate politics with you anymore) :lol:

You're right, Gary's last (third?) permanent ban should have been permanent.

Feel free to challenge him on his claims and I'll moderate it. I just have too many other things on my plate at the moment to get into it with him...
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:18 pm

AD, exactly what are 'my' claims?

This needs to be clarified, given the history of RU members fabricating 'my claims' and affiliations, etc.

But first, to the question Ryan raised about Dan's 'Ron comment' ...

I answered this a while back in this thread. When the CIA was ordered by the Senate AP to report on the twenty-plus year history of American I.C. paranormal research, they noted the existence of one known Navy effort, that "DIA is not the home of record for results obtained by DoD service organizations," and added, "no additional information is on file regarding the Navy program."

Ron's alleged statement is consistent with the above, is it not? Is there a problem with this interpretation, Ryan?

But I suggest you present any questions about my alleged claims one at a time, for examination in the context of the historical record.

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:25 pm

But first, a quick review of what the government sees as a 'phenomenology problem' ...

[From the Gale report]

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:27 pm

And note the suspicions referenced on this page about suspicions Navy had a 'black' paranormal program and that they "attended all DoD meetings" and were "literally silent."

Again, this appears to be consistent with Dan's statement that Ron was unable to access information concerning Navy's involvement with phenomenology.

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby dan » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:32 pm

AD, Gary, et al.,

Is anyone contending that Gary has failed to demonstrate that, quite apart from the Aviary, various departments of the USG have, in the past, been actively interested in the potential use of parapsychology?

Ron, however, states that he did an in-depth investigation of the most highly touted cases, and determined that the claims were without merit.

Is this the end of the story? I doubt it, but, no, we don't yet have a smoking-gun to prove that, post-Ron, the parapsychology effort went into the black. And, yes, Gary and others are following leads that may provide substantial evidence of an on-going program.

So the situation remains uncertain. Do any of us have a problem with this non-conclusion?

.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:13 pm

Ah, but not so fast Dan ... there are more clues to explore.

Like this JUNE 2002 UK MoD document on their POST 9/11 remote viewing experiments.

Note UK MoD S27 EXEMPTION: INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS: This exemption has been used to withhold information concerning our working relationship with another nation.

And note this line: "...they HAVE a group working for them."

One might ask, "Who are they? This foreign nation with a working relationship to UK."

http://www.starpod.org/MoD%20RVing%20157%20500x650.jpg
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:14 pm

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby ryguy » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:47 pm

Gary wrote:And note the suspicions referenced on this page about suspicions Navy had a 'black' paranormal program and that they "attended all DoD meetings" and were "literally silent."

Again, this appears to be consistent with Dan's statement that Ron was unable to access information concerning Navy's involvement with phenomenology.


Yet Gary writes just a few posts up:
RU is micro-focused on insignificant and irrelevant details (like Ron's off-hand remark to Dan that ONI's proven (documented) paranormal program was not in CIA's file base).


Actually, Mr. Strawman, we're calling all of the things Dan says Ron says as insignificant and irrelevant, since we have no evidence that Ron actually said them. It appears from your conflicting comments above that you like to pick and choose whatever alleged quotes suit your needs at the moment.

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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:09 pm

Actually Ryan, Dan's comment was useful as it directed my attention to look for US Navy involvement in paranormal research in the STAR GATE and other files.

And as I have PROVEN there is supporting evidence to support the claim made by Dan, regardless of the source.

RU, on the other hand, would simply shove their collective bird-necks into the sands of the Avian Coast! ;-)
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby dan » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:39 pm

Ryan,
Actually, Mr. Strawman, we're calling all of the things Dan says Ron says as insignificant and irrelevant, since we have no evidence that Ron actually said them. It appears from your conflicting comments above that you like to pick and choose whatever alleged quotes suit your needs at the moment.

How did Isaac Newton ever manage to come up with his first law of motion......?
Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion (constant velocity) unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force.

Can you show me one fact that substantiates this law, which happens to be the most important law in all of Science!!

You go around like Inspector Hound, and you have not the slightest clue.

Also, Ryan, I am under the impression that you take the existence of God as a very serious matter, a matter upon which you might stake your life.

Would you care to show us the solid facts that support this essential life-choice of yours?

Just wondering........

.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Access Denied » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:29 am

Gary wrote:And as I have PROVEN there is supporting evidence to support the claim made by Dan, regardless of the source.

How?

All I see is the Navy and AF had active research programs between 1975 and 1978. Keyword “had”…

Ron had a “need to know” by Congressional mandate so if they (or anybody else) had any useful data to support continued research they would have made it avaible to justify their own past expenditures… instead they canceled their programs nearly two decade earlier. Go figure…

The UK program naturally would have consulted those involved in past US government sponsored research and current private efforts… no surprise or evidence there.

All I see as “evidence” for an ongoing paranormal program is the anecdotal claims of three named "sources", two of which are proven frauds citing anonymous sources and one who’s a certifiable nut case who fancies himself the second coming.

Present your independently verifiable evidence of an ongoing government sponsored paranormal research program in your very next post or this thread will be closed and any further discussion of this topic will off limits here at RU until you do. We have no use for your endless idle speculation and disingenuous spin so you can take your sales pitch elsewhere...

Put up or shut up.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby dan » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:49 pm

Gary,

I'm virtually certain that you and your sources are correct concerning the USG's ongoing involvement with the paranormal, as I will elaborate, below.

BUT, please, don't burn your bridges here. AD and Ryan would only be too happy for you to provide them with an excuse to pull your plug.

Keep your powder dry..... live to fight another day!

The fat-lady is not quite ready to sing. Patience, my lad.

Look, you have done and are doing a very big job wrt disclosure, but this is a team effort, and we are still only taking baby-steps.

The RU-3 also have an important role to play in this effort, so let us not begrudge them that fact. They are also a lonely voice of sanity in the rising chaos. This was just posted on that other venue....... http://www.cfnews.org/lostsociety.htm

.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:06 am

AD wrote, "Ron had a 'need to know' by Congressional mandate."

Read the language more carefully. The request is specific to DIA and CIA files; only information already in those files would connect to the other programs. The INSCOM program became a DIA program; Jake Stewart ONI was working on a plan for the Undersecretary of Defense.

In the 1970s, there was a joint paranormal physics working group that met many times to share information under GRILL FLAME (all of this is documented in the files). Navy remained silent. As noted to the Senate AP, DIA was not home to those files. Since I have more files on hand than anyone in the programs had access to at the time they were active (or were ever seen by AIR, although I did provide Michael Schermer www.michaelshermer.com with copies a few years ago) it seems clear that CIA (at least claimed) they had no access to paranormal efforts run by other documented parties involved (NSA, USAF/FTD, Navy, etc.).

The UK files (2002) refer to an active group since they are "working for them" in the present tense.

AD wrote: "...anecdotal claims of three named "sources", two of which are proven frauds citing anonymous sources and one who’s a certifiable nut case who fancies himself the second coming."

The primary source is not Robinson, who has been partially vetted, and certainly not Gary E.R. Schwartz, Ron, Kit, Dan, etc. The source(s) are unknown to anyone in this forum, to the best of my knowledge. The writer for the Washington Post has been calling and asking questions, but there is another unrelated and highly sensitive pending issue.

There is another institution involved besides Johns Hopkins, according to 'Source One' ... this might connect to other investigations that have been of interest to the RU crowd. However, RU has never proven to be trustworthy with confidential sources, and thus they are cut off from the information.

This is not speculation: this is my reporting of a claim given to a known D.C. journalist (not Gus Russo) from a source known to this person, and this has recently come to the attention of a Washington Post writer, who has made some inquiries.

As mentioned previously, I do not know if anything will come of this. I also suspect a possible 'cut-out' role at NSA for another entity.

From the historical perspective, which is my primary interest, the Jack Anderson / Washington Post pre-declassification of STAR GATE and related programs is of interest, since history tends to repeat itself. Andersons's articles landed in the STAR GATE files, as he was being monitored. Jim Schnabel was also closely watched.

Keep in mind this is not about the validity of the science of the program, but rather the numerous claims (including Jon Ronson's unnamed source) about on-going or 'reactivated' paranormal programs post-9/11. Clearly the Brits were interested.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:14 am

And AD, I started this thread as "beyond the Aviary" because of the false belief that all of the paranormal stuff was conducted by Puthoff, Green, and company. The involvement of the highest levels of DoD and Congress have been clearly demonstrated in the files archive. You have only seen a handful of the 89,000 total pages.

Thus, whether or not anyone reading this wishes to accept the existence of an on-going US paranormal program at NSA or elsewhere, the thread remains valid concerning the historical record.
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Re: Beyond the AVIARY: US government paranormal activity

Postby Gary » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:58 am

AD: State each item in question one at a time and I will attempt to address them here, if you wish.
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