best evidence

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Re: best evidence

Postby murnut » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:35 am

This link was in my inbox this morning

Eight UFO cases that generate buzz

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34940931/ns ... ch_UFOBuzz
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Re: best evidence

Postby Crackajack » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:37 am

I was just a kid but have a vivid memory of the Frederick Valentich case back in my home country of Australia. He was flying a Cessna from Victoria across Bass Strait to King Island and he simply disappeared after reporting an unidentified object buzzing him, to the Melbourne Flight Service. I remember seeing the reports on TV and I think it was the single event that triggered my interest in this subject matter, all the way back in 1978.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentich_disappearance
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case24.htm
http://www.bookorphanage.com/valentich.html (transcript)

Now before you guys rip me a new one, I have never investigated the case in any detail but my understanding is that no trace of plane or body were ever found. Could be pilot hoax, suicide, any number of rational explanations. The recorded transcript which I heard way back then is difficult to track down these days but it was eerie to say the least.

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Re: best evidence

Postby Nemo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:31 am

Access Denied wrote:
As soon I get some time would you be interested in knowing why I don't think any of those cases you listed are the "best evidence" you're looking for?

Tom


ANY of the cases? Pure folderol, surely you jest.
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Re: best evidence

Postby Nemo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:47 am

O.K. for a single observation that should convince the viewer, witnessed by 2:

Mid 1970's, probably about 1973, Northern Illinois, October 31. There was a very strong wind out of the east, gusting, maybe 30mph or more. Clear, dark sky. The conditions should help define the exact year. When walking west with a friend I looked left (south) and at about 45 degrees above the horizon there was a very bright white spherical, or circular shape which was traveling west. It was brighter than Jupiter and probably a bit less bright than venus at its brightest. This was the brightest thing in the sky and I owned a telescope, was interested in astronomy, and was familiar with the appearance of Jupiter and Venus at all times of the year and during varying weather conditions at this location. I was also an aviation and military aviation buff and was thoroughly familiar with the appearance of planes, satellites, military aircraft, their speeds, sound etc. This object produced absolutely no sound and was travelling at a speed that would have been impossible for any man made aircraft. The sherical or circular shape was absolutely clear and there was no scintillation. It was not a star, appeared to be quite distant from me. It moved across maybe 1/4 or 1/3 of the horizon and then did immediate vertical and horizontal 90 degree turns as if it were following the outline of a stair (2 risers), turned upwards (3rd riser) and just blinked out.

Not an aircraft, not a satellite, not a meteor, not a temperature inversion (the air was cold and the wind was high), not ball lighting.

What was this?
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Re: best evidence

Postby Crackajack » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:11 am

Nemo wrote:What was this?


Hi Nemo. While I'm sure it was an interesting experience for you, a witness account with only a written observation cannot convince any third party of anything (although I've been proven wrong at other forums). Any third party comment to your question can only be assumption, conjecture and opinion. "had to be there" sort of thing, if you know what I mean.
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Re: best evidence

Postby Nemo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:15 am

Yes. I was citing it as an example of a single sighting that should rationally be enough to convince the one who had the sighting, especially since it was also witnessed by someone else at the time.
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Re: best evidence

Postby Access Denied » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:42 am

Nemo wrote:Yes, I would, but you would also have to tell me what is the best evidence and why.

Does my own sighting count?
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Re: best evidence

Postby Access Denied » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:15 am

ryguy wrote:To your list, I would also add the 1986 JAL Flight 1628 Over Alaska.

Bet you didn’t see this coming… :)

I wouldn’t, another commercial flight was asked to divert toward to it and didn’t see anything where the pilot said he was seeing something… go figure.

ryguy wrote:Even though the FAA buffoon John Callahan stretched the truth (okay, he pretty much lied) about the FAA/CIA meeting at the UFO press conference a couple of years ago - the case itself is very intriguing because we heard from one source (not yet corroborated) that the Air Force "erased" the tapes of the event (radar readings). I asked the source, "intentionally?" He answered, "I didn't say that, I just said they got erased."

Of course that in itself doesn't mean anything, the tapes are routinely reused…

Meh, sounds like typical “source” kind of stuff. :mrgreen:
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Re: best evidence

Postby ryguy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:09 pm

Crackajack wrote:Now before you guys rip me a new one, I have never investigated the case in any detail but my understanding is that no trace of plane or body were ever found. Could be pilot hoax, suicide, any number of rational explanations. The recorded transcript which I heard way back then is difficult to track down these days but it was eerie to say the least.

Cheers


I don't think anyone would rip you one..lol. There are cases throughout history of pilots reporting strange things like that - in fact I think often those are the most compelling. One of the first questions I would probably ask in the case though was whether or not he reported seeing anything. They do call it "buzzing" for a reason - a lot of guys actually feel and hear a buzzing sound, and a there's a lot of speculation that EM radiation (either naturally occurring at that location on Earth) or artificial could potentially cause those sort of experiences. It is too bad they never found his plane or body though. Probably sitting at the bottom of the sea...

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Re: best evidence

Postby ryguy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:13 pm

Nemo wrote:Yes. I was citing it as an example of a single sighting that should rationally be enough to convince the one who had the sighting, especially since it was also witnessed by someone else at the time.


I think your point is a good one. Even though it's nearly impossible to convince others - the experience was enough to convince you (and it might have convinced a few of us - who knows). It's true though, that all we can offer as a third party is speculation and guessing since we weren't there to make the observation or take other environmental measurements or other tests that would probably be more valuable to our individual knowledge/skill sets than they would be for others (such as your example of being familiar with various aircraft.

I believe that you experienced something real. What that "something" was is anyone's guess. Thank you for sharing!

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Re: best evidence

Postby ryguy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:16 pm

Access Denied wrote:Of course that in itself doesn't mean anything, the tapes are routinely reused…

Meh, sounds like typical “source” kind of stuff. :mrgreen:


Actually - you and the source agree....that's exactly what he said when I asked wtf he was talking about - why the hell would they erase the tapes? lol.

His response almost matched yours word for word... :)

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Re: best evidence

Postby ryguy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:17 pm

Access Denied wrote:Does my own sighting count?


Yes please!

**Ryan jumps into his favorite recliner, picks up his bucket of popcorn and looks at AD expectantly.**

:)
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Re: best evidence

Postby Nemo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:53 pm

Access Denied wrote:
Nemo wrote:Yes, I would, but you would also have to tell me what is the best evidence and why.

Does my own sighting count?


Yes, that would be fine. It would be interesting to read. I'd probably believe you too and then place it in a "tentative good evidence" file. The only thing to question for sightings like these is the credibility of the observer and the possibility of mis-identification. The way some reports read it would seem difficult to assume mis-identification although that is probably the case for most sightings in general.
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Re: best evidence

Postby Crackajack » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:24 am

ryguy wrote:
I don't think anyone would rip you one..lol. There are cases throughout history of pilots reporting strange things like that - in fact I think often those are the most compelling. One of the first questions I would probably ask in the case though was whether or not he reported seeing anything. They do call it "buzzing" for a reason - a lot of guys actually feel and hear a buzzing sound, and a there's a lot of speculation that EM radiation (either naturally occurring at that location on Earth) or artificial could potentially cause those sort of experiences. It is too bad they never found his plane or body though. Probably sitting at the bottom of the sea...

-Ryan


I hear ya re: the buzzing Ry. This guy actually did report seeing something along with unusual flight characteristics. Here's a snip of the transcript:

1908 hours
Valentich: Melbourne, it's approaching now from due east towards me...
Valentich: (open microphone for two seconds)
Valentich: ...it seems to me that he's playing some sort of game... he's flying over me two... three times at speeds I could not identify...

1909 hours
Melbourne: ... roger... what is your actual level?
Valentich: My level is four and a half thousand four five zero zero...
Melbourne: ... and confirm you cannot identify the aircraft...
Valentich: ... affirmative.
Melbourne: roger... stand by...
Valentich: ... it's not an aircraft it is... (open microphone for two seconds)
Melbourne: ... can you describe the... er... aircraft?
Valentich: ... as it's flying past it's a long shape... (open microphone for three seconds)... cannot identify more than that... it has such speed... (open microphone for three seconds)... before me right now Melbourne...

1910 hours
Melbourne: ...roger... and how large would the... er... object be?
Valentich: ... it seems like it's stationary... what I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me... also, its got a green light and sort of metallic like... it's all shiny on the outside...
Valentich: (open microphone for five seconds)... it's just vanished...

1911 hours
Valentich: Melbourne, would you know what kind of aircraft I've got? Is it military aircraft?
Melbourne: ...confirm the... er... aircraft just vanished...
Valentich: ... say again?
Melbourne: ... is the aircraft still with you?
Valentich: ... approaching from the southwest...
Valentich: ... the engine is rough idling... I've got it set at twenty three twenty four and the thing is..



I tend to think the plane and pilot are at the bottom of the sea also.

Cheers

PS: Can I enable bbcode or is that an admin function?
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Re: best evidence

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:37 am

Nemo wrote:Where should I look at the site for the best cases? I think that they should be in one place as tentative best cases with possibly links to the discussions of them.

That would be cool, are you volunteering? :) (we could really use the help)

Probably the best way to do this would be…

a) use the “advanced search” in the menu at the top to find any existing threads dedicated to a “best” case
b) if one doesn’t exist, start a new topic for it
c) start a “best case index” sticky topic with all the links and keep it updated

Any other ideas? I think we should start with the cases you already listed and the ones others have suggested in this thread.

Nemo wrote:As for there being few cases, I think that one excellent case should be enough to establish the reality of the phenomenon.

Should be… :)
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