Stan Friedman et al

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Stan Friedman et al

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat May 20, 2006 1:15 pm

Shawnna says:

"Also - the following is an excerpt from the link provided below. It makes for a very interesting read.

Quote:

All so-called leaks are intentional misinformation projects designed to promote the alien threat scenario while allowing for complete deniability on the part of government. The antics of Vicki (Cooper) Ecker (CIA), Donald Francis Ecker III (Dupe), William Moore, Jaime Shandera, Stanton T. Friedman, Bruce Maccabee (CIA, ONI), Barry Taff PhD.(Pneuropsychiatric Institute of UCLA worked with recently deceased Dr. Louis Jollyn "Jolly" West), Whitley Strieber, Bud Hopkins (CIA), John Lear (CIA), Linda Moulton Howe Order of the Eastern Star and American Federation of Human Rights (American co-masonry), Art Bell (Freemason), Glen Campbell, George Knapp (Freemason), Colonel Philip Corso (CIA, a monumental liar now Deceased), Richard Hoagland and his Face on Mars, the so-called alien autopsy film, NASA and the Apollo Moon Missions, the so-called Mars Meteorite which was fraudulently promoted as containing fossil evidence of life on Mars, the War Of The Worlds, and many other people and events are projects of this type. Some (very few) of these People are unwitting accomplices in the charade and truly believe in the extraterrestrial threat."

This is an interesting read (rant) only for the abject paranoia that it displays. It questions the integrity of the ufologists cited on the basis of 'freemasonry,' purported CIA involvement- everything except involvement with the 'illuminati' and Luciferian cults!

The author even denies the moon landings. On what basis does being a mason automatically disqualiy one's theories? What evidence is there that Bud Hopkins, Vicky Ecker Cooper, Bruce Maccabee, John Lear and the late Phil Corso are CIA agents? Or that Corso was a 'monumental liar?'

To me, this is nothing more than a broad-brush smear based on no evidence at all.

Stan Friedman may well have been misled by Doty and Moore but he is in no way an intentional agent of disinformation. He's a serious researcher and and advocate for ufology in general and the Roswell incident in particular.
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Re: Stan Friedman et al

Postby Shawnna » Sat May 20, 2006 3:24 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:The author even denies the moon landings. On what basis does being a mason automatically disqualiy one's theories? What evidence is there that Bud Hopkins, Vicky Ecker Cooper, Bruce Maccabee, John Lear and the late Phil Corso are CIA agents? Or that Corso was a 'monumental liar?'

To me, this is nothing more than a broad-brush smear based on no evidence at all.

Stan Friedman may well have been misled by Doty and Moore but he is in no way an intentional agent of disinformation. He's a serious researcher and and advocate for ufology in general and the Roswell incident in particular.


I said it was an interesting read - that's all. I like to look at all information available.

However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

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Re: Stan Friedman et al

Postby ryguy » Sat May 20, 2006 3:50 pm

Shawnna wrote:However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

Always,
Shawnna


You both bring up excellent points. The various researchers in the field of ufology could be categorized as "solid researchers" or "disinfo/poor researchers" for many reasons.

Looks like we may need to develop a criteria to help seperate out the weeds, and come up with a good list of researchers who have repeatedly produced solid results in their research. Probably a criteria that involves how close to the proven "disinfo" documents/people they have come in contact with - as well as the quality of their writing/research.

I'm still up in the air about Mr. Friedman - we'll need to have a criteria that we can measure him (and the rest of the researchers) up against....

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Re: Stan Friedman et al

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat May 20, 2006 4:30 pm

ryguy wrote:
Shawnna wrote:However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

Always,
Shawnna


You both bring up excellent points. The various researchers in the field of ufology could be categorized as "solid researchers" or "disinfo/poor researchers" for many reasons.

Looks like we may need to develop a criteria to help seperate out the weeds, and come up with a good list of researchers who have repeatedly produced solid results in their research. Probably a criteria that involves how close to the proven "disinfo" documents/people they have come in contact with - as well as the quality of their writing/research.

I'm still up in the air about Mr. Friedman - we'll need to have a criteria that we can measure him (and the rest of the researchers) up against....

-Ry


I've of course read the same stuff about SF's purported support of fabrication. I also read his rebuttal of this charge somewhere. I'll email him and ask for clarification. He ought to be posting on this site anyway.
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Postby Hidden Hand » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:34 pm

as always, it's simpler to just link to someone's good argument than develop th eargument here from scratch

Stan Freidman on Stan Friedman
After quoting SF's defense of MJ-12 docs from UFO Updates,
What is interesting here is that the things Stan says here are all correct...they are facts. They are things he responds with when people claim the MJ-12 documents contain errors that prove they are fake.

However, as a response to someone saying he is not convinced that MJ-12 is real, this is intellectually dishonest. (snip)

So, what does Stan say to that? All he can say is as above...that he has proven that the types face was in use, the paper was in use, the words were in use, the watermark is correct, the classification was in use, etc.

My queston is..."which of these statements proves that the MJ-12 documents are real?".

Well, none of them.


In other words, SF appears to be logically confused - he is using evidence against arguments for MJ-12 docs being fakes as proof of their reality. Bad logic.



More, this time from UFO Updates

Stanton Friedman wrote:> Thousands of abductees and physical trace case witnesses from all over the world describe beings that don't look like Earthlings and vehicles that look and act like no known Earthling produced vehicle. Therefore they were produced somewhere other than earth which means they are of ET origin.

Their presence is the proof. We know they aren't from here so they are of ET origin. that is the logic.


And from Eugene Frison's rebuttal:
Eugene Frison wrote:This is so ridiculous, it isn't even funny! (snip) None of these are 'givens'. There is absolutely no logic in what you are saying - only the very thin appearance of logic. You start off with pure assumptions. Ignore valid research. Then jump to totally unfounded conclusions.

The things you assume as starting points can only be gotten to by roping off a very tiny portion of the UFO picture - ignoring those nuts and bolts flying saucers types that have unusual bizarre characteristics and that don't fit into your perfectly defined spaceship category (the hugh amount of cases in the blur zone) and ignoring all other categories of UFOs - and I'm not talking about IFOs or misperceived mundanes when I mention these other categories. You then also - without any proper justification for doing so - dismiss and/or ignore research that shows other possible explanations may exist for the phenomenon you're focussing on. Finally, you jump to unfounded conclusions without any evidence whatsoever (other than the 'givens' which you can't even properly get to) and call this leap of aith 'scientific deduction'.


'nuff..
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:52 pm

Who the hell is eugene frison? Is this some guy we ought to incline towards? And who are you? Someone with the knowledge and logic of Stanton Friedman? Or just another putz in the wind trying to make a name by debunkinking Stan Friedman? And where is that hidden hand? in your drawyers? eugene frison for president! raise some dough!

k
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:03 pm

you've regaled us with your sophomoric philosophy 101 knowledge. thank you. google is not truth.

actually- you piss me off with your silly pontifications.

i've concluded that you are a petulant child.

keep googling.
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Postby Hidden Hand » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:23 pm

WTF?

Since when was what Stanton Friedman says declared "off limits" from critical examination?

Guess I didn't get that memo.


[[ edited for no good reason at all ]]
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Postby GalacticG » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:32 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:you've regaled us with your sophomoric philosophy 101 knowledge. thank you. google is not truth.

actually- you piss me off with your silly pontifications.

i've concluded that you are a petulant child.

keep googling.


CS, do you have an anger management problem? This is how you respond to another person simply posting contrary information during a discussion? What you've done is personally attack HH which violates the TOS of this site. You seem to have a hard time not flying off the handle when you disagree with another poster here. What's the deal?
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Postby ryguy » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:53 pm

Cartoon,

On this particular topic (Friedman) you seem pretty sensitive. Before you attack any other member in this forum, please PM me so we can discuss whatever gets you angry about people countering Friedman's claims. Consider this a last and final warning - I enjoy your posts and humor in this forum but we can't tolerate such attacks on fellow members.

-Ry
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Postby dragonfire » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:04 am

Geee, kind of reminds you of someone that sticks up for GW.

Sorry cartoon but geezzz.....
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Postby Almeirhria » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:09 am

Could a link be posted to the article as originally stated - I could not find one?
The view sounds like that which William Lyne holds.
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Postby Shawnna » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:19 am

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Postby Hidden Hand » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:03 pm

Whoa!!!

I just realized that "cartoonsyndicate" is anagram for "Stanton Friedman Jr"!!
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Postby Shawnna » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:40 pm

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