email sent to Stan Friedman

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email sent to Stan Friedman

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat May 20, 2006 5:05 pm

DearStan,

A new site has been developed by some refugees from ATS and Openmind Serpo threads. And of course there has developed the usual Stan Friedman food fight. http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... ?p=320#320

Pasted from above thread:

------Begin Paste------
Shawnna said-

Stanton Friedman - Per Brad Sparks, Mr. Friedman agreed with Bill Moore that creating fake documents (i.e Majestic 12 Documents) was a good idea and a way to 'open doors'.

The above is from my timeline posted in the Majestic 12 thread on this forum which is produced from data found here:

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm
--------End Paste---------

To which I replied:

cartoonsyndicate wrote:

------Begin Paste------
Stan Friedman may well have been misled by Doty and Moore but he is in no way an intentional agent of disinformation. He's a serious researcher and and advocate for ufology in general and the Roswell incident in particular.
-----End Paste-------


To which Shawnna replied:

------Begin Paste------
However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

Always,
Shawnna
------End Paste------


To which the moderator replied:

------Begin Paste------
You both bring up excellent points. The various researchers in the field of ufology could be categorized as "solid researchers" or "disinfo/poor researchers" for many reasons.

Looks like we may need to develop a criteria to help seperate out the weeds, and come up with a good list of researchers who have repeatedly produced solid results in their research. Probably a criteria that involves how close to the proven "disinfo" documents/people they have come in contact with - as well as the quality of their writing/research.

I'm still up in the air about Mr. Friedman - we'll need to have a criteria that we can measure him (and the rest of the researchers) up against....

-Ry"
-------End Paste--------

And so... I'd love to see you either post a reply in the thread or point me to a link to your rebuttal of the Brad Parks statement and I'll post it myself.

I've long admired your research, your ethics and your committment to the cause of disclosure.

Best regards,

Kim

Kim Walker
xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx Construction, LLC
xxxx Elm St., Ste C
Denver, Colorado 80207
303.xxx.xxxx
303.xxx.xxxx Fax
303.xxx.xxxx Cel


*****Mod(Ryguy): Edited for easy readability & to remove personal contact info.*******
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Postby Shawnna » Sat May 20, 2006 5:47 pm

Hi Kim - thanks for taking this initiative and I will look forward to the reply!

It will be great to get more insight into all of this.

Always,
Shawnna
Last edited by Shawnna on Sat May 20, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ryguy » Sat May 20, 2006 6:02 pm

I agree - it's great to see that kind of initiative. I'd love to hear Mr. Friedman's points in his own words.

I just "prettied up" your post Kim - hope you don't mind. Also, I censored some of your personal contact info. We do get a lot of "views" here every day and the last thing I want to see is you get on some mailing list or spam list that you never signed up for!

Thanks again - hope you get a response!

-Ry
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat May 20, 2006 7:03 pm

ryguy wrote:I agree - it's great to see that kind of initiative. I'd love to hear Mr. Friedman's points in his own words.

I just "prettied up" your post Kim - hope you don't mind. Also, I censored some of your personal contact info. We do get a lot of "views" here every day and the last thing I want to see is you get on some mailing list or spam list that you never signed up for!

Thanks again - hope you get a response!

-Ry


hey ry,

thanks to you and zep there's a place to do it!
k
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon May 22, 2006 12:47 pm

email rec'd from stan friedman:

Brad is flat out wrong. I never agreed it would be a good idea to fake MJ-12 documents. I even complained that when Bill Moore first released the documents in a censored form.. ostensibly to see if anybody else had copies of the same thing-- that it was wrong to do so without saying that it was what was done. I do not believe it is right to make hoaxed documents.. period. Now or ever. How in the world anybody can think I am a disinformation agent or working for the CIA etc ad nauseum, I cannot understand. Proclamation is not the way to do research. Investigation is. What are thes pecific charges about things I have actually said or done? Or is that too much to ask? Can they site chapter or verse?
I hate wasting my time on this sort of stuff but suppose I should be aware. I could, but won't, spend all my time refuting the silly things people have said about me.Google recently said 80,000 hits which is really ridiculous.
Thanks for letting me know, I think.
Stan
----- Original Message -----
From: Kim
To: xxxxxx@rogers.com
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:02 PM


DearStan,

A new site has been developed by some refugees from ATS and Openmind Serpo threads. And of course there has developed the usual Stan Friedman food fight. http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... ?p=320#320

Pasted from above thread:

Shawnna said-

Stanton Friedman - Per Brad Sparks, Mr. Friedman agreed with Bill Moore that creating fake documents (i.e Majestic 12 Documents) was a good idea and a way to 'open doors'.

The above is from my timeline posted in the Majestic 12 thread on this forum which is produced from data found here:

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm

To which I replied:

cartoonsyndicate wrote:


Stan Friedman may well have been misled by Doty and Moore but he is in no way an intentional agent of disinformation. He's a serious researcher and and advocate for ufology in general and the Roswell incident in particular.





To which Shawnna replied:

However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

Always,
Shawnna


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To which the moderator replied:

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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Stan Friedman et al


Shawnna wrote:

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.

Always,
Shawnna




You both bring up excellent points. The various researchers in the field of ufology could be categorized as "solid researchers" or "disinfo/poor researchers" for many reasons.

Looks like we may need to develop a criteria to help seperate out the weeds, and come up with a good list of researchers who have repeatedly produced solid results in their research. Probably a criteria that involves how close to the proven "disinfo" documents/people they have come in contact with - as well as the quality of their writing/research.

I'm still up in the air about Mr. Friedman - we'll need to have a criteria that we can measure him (and the rest of the researchers) up against....

-Ry"


And so... I'd love to see you either post a reply in the thread or point me to a link to your rebuttal of the Brad Parks statement and I'll post it myself.

I've long admired your research, your ethics and your committment to the cause of disclosure.

Best regards,

Kim





Kim Walker
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Construction, LLC
xxxx xxx St., Ste C
Denver, Colorado 80207
...

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my response

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon May 22, 2006 1:34 pm

Hi Stan,

I posted your reply in the forum thread.

Let me just say this- I have never entertained any doubt as to your integrity concerning your research.

It pisses me off that this field is so suffused with paranoia that anyone with a scholarly contribution is suspected of being an agent of disinformation.

During many years of advocating for, and defending your work I've come under the same suspicion!

All the best,

Kim
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Postby ryguy » Mon May 22, 2006 3:00 pm

I would say that if Stan can defend against the current statements that he had a part in hoaxing the docs, then we should place his name in the list of respectable ufologists who's work we can follow and trust (in the "Best Evidence" forum.)

Shawnna/Zep - where are the docs again that make the allegation that Stan has a hand in the hoaxing of these documents. It's nice to have direct communication with him so we can finally put any incorrect assumptions about him finally to rest.

Thanks for getting in touch with him Kim - nice work! Hope you don't mind being a laison of sorts, maybe we can help him clear his name once, right here, and anywhere we see the incorrect information spread about him, we can correct those who are wrong. But first we have to prove those allegations are wrong, by double-checking those sources that make such claims.

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Mon May 22, 2006 6:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Shawnna » Mon May 22, 2006 3:18 pm

As much as I hate to say this but all we have is Kim's word that this response did indeed come from in email from Stan Friedman. Is there any way we can authenticate it?

To answer Ry's questions, the information that Brad Sparks sought out Stanton Friedman's input on Moore's idea to create documents came from this website:

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm

It is about half way down the page, and states:

Then in 1983, Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to a plan of his to create counterfeit government documents. Moore told Sparks he believed that counterfeit documents could be used to induce former military officers to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFOs and the cover-up. Sparks suggested strongly that Moore not do this. Sparks was so upset that he called Stanton Friedman and found, to his shock, that Friedman thought that the hoaxing of such documents was a good idea.

1983, a year before the alleged MJ-12 documents were mailed to Shandera (Moore’s good friend) in 1984!


And I agree, that it is very good to have Mr. Friedman's input into this situation - assuming we can authenticate it as such.

Now we need to get Brad Sparks input. I'll see what I can do to track him down.

If we are to fulfill our mission of stopping the disinformation - in all forms - it is important that we get first hand information whenever possible.

Always,
Shawnna

EDIT BY SHAWNNA - I'll see if I can track down Brad Sparks and get his input.
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Postby ryguy » Mon May 22, 2006 6:59 pm

Shawnna wrote:As much as I hate to say this but all we have is Kim's word that this response did indeed come from in email from Stan Friedman. Is there any way we can authenticate it?


Of course - although Kim's word is probably good enough. You're right, every source should be verified as much as possible. Kim - is there a way you can forward me the actual email with all headers in tact? I'll send my personal email address to you in a PM shortly. Please send as an attachment so I can reference the header info and just verify where it comes from - thanks!


I'll see if I can track down Brad Sparks and get his input.


Excellent! Thank you Shawnna! Hopefully it doesn't turn into a he said/he said scenerio. Maybe time has played enough of a role where these two individuals can agree to a common story. I'm very interested to hear Spark's input...

-Ry
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon May 22, 2006 9:02 pm

ryguy wrote:
Shawnna wrote:As much as I hate to say this but all we have is Kim's word that this response did indeed come from in email from Stan Friedman. Is there any way we can authenticate it?


Of course - although Kim's word is probably good enough. You're right, every source should be verified as much as possible. Kim - is there a way you can forward me the actual email with all headers in tact? I'll send my personal email address to you in a PM shortly. Please send as an attachment so I can reference the header info and just verify where it comes from - thanks!


I'll see if I can track down Brad Sparks and get his input.


Excellent! Thank you Shawnna! Hopefully it doesn't turn into a he said/he said scenerio. Maybe time has played enough of a role where these two individuals can agree to a common story. I'm very interested to hear Spark's input...

-Ry


kim's word will always be good. he is among the few unsnatched in this incipient borg. but in the spirit of 'trust but verify' i've sent the gobbleygook contained in the email 'properties.' our highest priority must always be the Ethical, which to me is the long, elusive basic substance of the universe. i think that a consideration of the totality of the works of stan friedman ought to convince anyone that he shares this view- shares it with ry, zep, shawnna and me. dissembling is the penultimate evil. period. there is no point to deception. i quote here a small treatise called " The Dialectical Concordance: First Principles" that was sent to me many years ago and is worth considering here:

The Dialectical Concordance: First Principles
1. That among all possible forms and actual entities Ecological Equilibrium necessarily exists.
2. That the basic substance of the universe is characterized by Mood.
3. That the basic substance of the universe is Ethics.
4. That the first three principles constitute the Dialectical Process.
5. That each Principle, in itself, contains the Dialectical Process.
6. That, therefore, there necessarily exists an Identity among all possible realities.
7. That this Identity is dichotomized only by relativity;
8. Which dichotomy in itself constitutes Dialectic.
9. That all argument is therefore by nature, spiralar.
10. That the Spiral Continuum is both ascendant and descendant simultaneously.
11. That Abstraction from the Continuum always results in circularity.
12. That the Will is necessarily characterized as Abstraction from the Continuum.
13. Will is therefore alienation from the Process of Reality- Dialectic,
14. And is therefore in opposition to the Ethical.
15. The Order of Conflicting Wills is Morality.
16. Morality is therefore by its very nature unethical.
17. Process/ Ethics is characterized by Love and Free Harmony among all actual entities.
18. Will/ Morality is characterized by conflict and force.
19. Mergence with Process is accorded by the Imagination.
20. Imagination is the Mood of God.

the ideas seem to be a take off from plato and whitehead. and while the reasoning appears to be circular it is in fact spiralar. the beginning never intersects the end. worth considering.

best,

kim
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