The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

Hard to debunk

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed May 23, 2007 4:45 pm

Crash/Retrievals?
Underground bases (either sole alien or human/alien)?
MJ-12?
Dark Cabal?
Whistleblower credibility?

I thought we could have a seperate thread where
people post documentation, "exhibits" (ala the courtroom
type), and testimony.
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA


Postby MikeJamieson » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:09 pm

Is 17 days too little time to give us some "beef"?

Woops, forgot about the prions.

How about some "juice" behind the various govt. related
parts of the story?

I could start off by proving that I'm a member of MJ-12.
By simply pointing out the initials of my name. My mom
and dad were senior members, of course, and they
gave me my name simply because of the initials.
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby MikeJamieson » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:19 pm

With the emergence of the original MJ-12 paper (1952 so called Eisenhower briefing document), researchers like Barry Greenwood of the old CAUS
(Center against ufo secrecy) began an exhausting deconstruction of these documents. Concurrently, researchers like Stanton Friedman exhaustively searched for corroborating evidence. This is the start of the MJ-12 story, which "came out" when Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera released news of a film copy (received by Shandera) of this alleged briefing document. Their purpose was to spark such an examination.
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby MikeJamieson » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:15 pm

Any MJ-12 policy "board" would necessarily have to have
compartmentalized operation units that are engaged in things
like crash/retrieval operations, counter-intelligence, field operations
that can quickly respond to UFO sighting waves, etc.

What evidentiary signs exist of the above (or of part of the above)?
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby Serpentime » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:31 am

MikeJamieson wrote:What evidentiary signs exist of the above (or of part of the above)?


Hi Mike,

Just for fun, what about Moondust / Bluefly and the old Air Force Special Activities Center (AFSAC - now absorbed into DIA's Defense HUMINT Service)?


Serp :)
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby MikeJamieson » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:59 pm

Yes! Correct answer. That was based at Fort Belvoir.
Moondust/Blue Fly is confirmed as a retrieval operation
for space debris and the like.

BTW, Bill Moore proposed some time back that
the Air Force Special Activities Center had a counter-intelligence
operation that went around gathering "evidence" of UFOs.
He theorized that they used con-men and experienced criminals
in some of their ops and further adopted the old men in black
mythos that Gray Barker put out in one of his early writings.
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby Serpentime » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:30 am

If I'm correct, one of the declassified "Bluefly" documents from 1961 (that USAF wanted re-classified after State "mistakenly" released it...) specified:

e. Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO): Headquarters USAF has established a program for investigation of reliably reported unidentified flying objects within the United States. AFR 200-2 delineates 1127th collection responsibilities.


1127th Field Activities Group was the successor to the 4602nd Air Intelligence Service Squadron, which was tasked with investigation of UFOB sightings in 1953 - after Robertson. Subsequently, the unit was redesignated as 1006th AISS in 1957, then 1127th FAG. Stationed at Fort Belvoir, Virginia (a focal "node" for highly sensitive intelligence activities), 1127th eventually became AFSAC before being absorbed by Defense HUMINT in 1996 (I think?).

These units were the "field agents" for Foreign Technology's and AFIN's classified investigation of significant UFOB reports - their materials being processed by FTD's technical analysts before being handed "down" to publicly known Project Bluebook, for - ahem - dissemination (?).

As a special unit tasked with collecting domestic "intelligence" within CONUS, AFSAC likely could have called on AFOSI, or other CI elements, to prosecute its special "assignments".

"Groups" and "Centers" often draw on multiple disciplinary resources (and even rival Branches), I believe (?), to accomplish their missions.


~ In at least this one area, perhaps, our hypothetical "MJ-12" could have had real-world access to the appropriate operational "resources" ... (?)


Serp


> Though only my own personal observation, the mentalities of a criminal and of a counterintelligence officer may be very similar in certain circumstances, due to the inherently "deceptive" nature of their respective professions. The boundary (and the defining difference between the two) is only a matter of personal ethics.

~ i.e. Ever need a master forger to "work" some sensitive documents? Hint: go "spring" him from the Federal Pen... ;)
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:25 pm

The identification of those units are what I remember also from
Moore's presentation, in early 90s. I didn't know about the DIA
assuming all of this as a HUMINT operation later in that decade.

We're still worlds away from establishing a MJ-12 type entity.

Maybe we can work on fleshing out whether there are ANY valid
crash/retrieval events (of alien craft)? Leonard Stringefield's database
didn't have sufficient evidentiary foundation, near as I can remember.
(He's gone now, but not his data.) Roswell seems to have collapsed
under the confabulating behavior of many of its elderly witnesses.
If you look really carefully, there doesn't seem to be anything that
really shouts "alien craft and alien entities". (In that case.) Same thing with Kecksburg.....what seems established there is that some acorn shaped
object was retrieved, but nothing that points to it being "extraterrestrial".
Right?
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby Serpentime » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:47 am

Just for the record, Jeffrey Richelson (Senior fellow with the National Security Archive, and a respected authority on U.S. Intelligence affairs) writes:

{From The U.S. Intelligence Community; Westview; 1999. pp. 68 - 69.}

~ In June 1993, in response to discussions with DCI James Woolsey during the annual Joint Review of Intelligence Programs, Deputy Secretary of Defense William J. Perry requested that the ASD (C3I) develop a plan to consolidate the separate human intellignece components of the Defense Department into a single organization.

That Plan, Plan for Consolidation of Defense HUMINT, was approved by Perry in a November 2, 1993, memorandum.

...The Air Force contribution to the DHS came from the transfer of personnel from the former Air Force Intelligence Command's 696th Intelligence Group. The group, which conducted clandestine collection activities and debriefed defectors, was previously known as the Air Force Special Activities Center, the 7612th Air Intelligence Group, and the 1127th Field Activities Group. The 1127th was described as "an oddball unit, a composite of special intelligence groups who 'conducted worldwide operations to collect intelligence from human sources.' The men of the 1127th were con artists. Their job was to get people to talk -- Russian defectors, North Vietnamese soldiers taken prisoner..."



...and according to the Bluefly documents, UFO witnesses. ;)


~ "Con artists" with a talent for creating conversation...

Sounds like Rick Doty would have fit right in. ;)


{Then again, Doty claims that his father and/or uncle WERE assigned to that very unit... :shock:}

---------------------------------------------------------------------


As far as Len Stringfield's research goes, I've got Status Reports VI and VII right here. :)

In my own opinion there are many interesting anecdotes presented (many of them comparatively rare and little-known, too), but - again - nothing (IMO) that rises significantly above the level of unsubstantiated hearsay.

{But I really enjoyed the Alien jawbone at WPAFB story. :)}

There may be useful clues here - or not (Sorry "Jim" :() - but my (hypothetical / working) assumption will suggest that USG (or others) would likely confiscate all physical evidence of any such event, thereby leaving nothing behind for "researchers" to research BESIDES hearsay. :(


A classic "Catch-22", perhaps?


"Search for Proof in a Hall of Mirrors", indeed. LOL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

IF the Kecksburg object was NOT Kosmos 96 / Venera 4, then all I can conclude (IMHO) is that strong evidence may suggest that the United States Military recovered an unknown object of unknown origin that it has NEVER subsequently acknowledged or discussed, in any way, by way of anyone.

EVER.

Such a conclusion neither supports, nor denies, the possibility of Extraterrestrial provenance.



My thoughts,

Serp
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:49 am

Serpentime wrote:There may be useful clues here - or not (Sorry "Jim" :() - but my (hypothetical / working) assumption will suggest that USG (or others) would likely confiscate all physical evidence of any such event, thereby leaving nothing behind for "researchers" to research BESIDES hearsay. :(

Hi Serp,

What verifiable/conceivable basis/justification is there really for the assumption that were an object of ET origin ever actually recovered/confiscated by the USG that it would NOT be turned over to Science once it was determined that is of no intelligence value? Initially sure, they probably would sit on it and consider the implications and work out the contingencies (extra mental hospital beds?) in preparation for the announcement but in the final analysis would it not be the greatest and most important discovery in the history of mankind? I mean seriously how long would the initial shock last before Paris Hilton gets arrested again and everybody changes the channel?

Serpentime wrote:IF the Kecksburg object was NOT Kosmos 96 / Venera 4, then all I can conclude (IMHO) is that strong evidence may suggest that the United States Military recovered an unknown object of unknown origin that it has NEVER subsequently acknowledged or discussed, in any way, by way of anyone.

I assume you’ve aleady read Tim Printy’s excellent piece on this?

http://members.aol.com/tprinty/Kecksburg.html

I tend to agree with both Tim’s and James Oberg’s analysis, after all Jim speaks Russian. :)

The mere fact that Kosmos 96 did fail and deorbit and was headed that way combined with the known trajectory and timing uncertainty makes this a pretty strong case for the application of Occam’s Razor don’t you think?

AD

P.S. Dio rocks! :twisted:
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby Serpentime » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:15 am

Hi AD,

How's this for Occam's Razor:

When I first heard of the Kecksburg story some years ago - and the description of the alleged object involved as an "acorn", with strange markings on the exterior - my very first thought was of a Soviet descent stage. :D

But then the orbital data became ambiguous (as Mr. Oberg concluded?), and I didn't know what to think anymore. :( Perhaps the booster rocket did separate into multiple pieces that de-orbited during slightly different "windows"? Perhaps this reasonably (?) explains the twelve hour re-entry difference alleged...

On the other hand, if NORAD DID suspect that the apparent observed re-entry (?) was related to Kosmos 96, then National Security implications could very reasonably (?) have required that the appropriate Disinformation (regarding the orbit) be promulgated.

As for the Soviets, I believe that they continue to offer a blanket nyet to the entire idea (?). Possibly too "embarrassing" to admit to - if true...?


~ Yet then again, Mr. Printy seems fairly convinced that the whole episode was nothing more than popular hysteria cut with the typical hyperbole...

{Thanks for the link, BTW. I enjoyed reading Mr. Printy's arguments and analysis. :)}


To be honest, I could almost accept ANY explanation at this point, provided (IMO) that it's NOT a simple meteor. I saw a nice "dripping roman candle" example of one those just two weeks ago and it didn't draw any special excitement that I can recall...

Further, I don't understand how anyone near Kecksburg would have likely noticed any of the "dark" matter falling in their area, if the bolide had exploded over Ontario? ~ I mean, sure, someone might have heard something go "bang" in the woods, but where was the crater / "flaming" rocky fragment(s) that the authorities claimed not to find?


As I said, Kosmos is a believable solution to me, but - when I come down to it - there's no real HARD evidence for that either. :(

...Unless the USG knows something that I don't. And I guess they would certainly lie about recovering Kosmos, too. ~ IF they really did recover it... LOL


Access Denied wrote:What verifiable/conceivable basis/justification is there really for the assumption that were an object of ET origin ever actually recovered/confiscated by the USG that it would NOT be turned over to Science once it was determined that is of no intelligence value? ...in the final analysis would it not be the greatest and most important discovery in the history of mankind?


That's an excellent question, AD. :)

Though only my personal opinion, I believe that the logical justification for my assumption would be found in the purviews of Power Politics, human nature being what it is. :(

To quote Francis Bacon (one of the men who first envisioned the idea of America - or New Atlantis - in the early 1500s, I believe?):

"Knowledge is power."


Or, in prosaic terms: Knowing something that other people don't know, provides me with a distinct advantage over those people. Such advantage allows me to dominate and leverage others. The greater the knowledge gap, the greater my advantage becomes.

Were it my prerogative to "share" proof of extraterrstrial visitation with the "masses", it is my long held and considered opinion that the current state of human affairs does not constructively allow for such a "disclosure".

For example: Human beings (even internet forum members who claim to "knowingly" anticipate just such "developments"...) can neither identify - nor empathize - with themselves, or with their skeptics. If this is so, then how can we expect ANY human being (or at least the vast, vast, majority of them) to take "The News" well?

Rather instead, I would attempt to use my "knowledge" in a more "manipulative" way - perhaps "steering" the common population in directions that I (but not necessarily "they"...) would fully understand, appreciate, and approve of.


But that's just me. :)


Power and Politics are good candidates to usurp conventional scientific priority, in my opinion.

Sad, but that's just the way our World works.



Best,

Serp :)



Access Denied wrote:P.S. Dio rocks! :twisted:


~ I just caught the Heaven and Hell 2007 tour about six weeks ago. Front row, stage right - right on the rail. :D I even got to exchange a cordial Malich (that "Horns" thingy... LOL) with Tony. AWESOME show!!

And remember:

"If you listen to fools... the Mob rules." ;)
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:32 am

Serpentime wrote:But then the orbital data became ambiguous (as Mr. Oberg concluded?), and I didn't know what to think anymore. :( Perhaps the booster rocket did separate into multiple pieces that de-orbited during slightly different "windows"? Perhaps this reasonably (?) explains the twelve hour re-entry difference alleged...

I think Mr. Oberg simply resigned himself to the position that he couldn’t conclusively prove to himself with the available data that Kosmos 96 was responsible therefore he couldn’t reasonably expect others to accept his conclusion. I admire that.

Serpentime wrote:On the other hand, if NORAD DID suspect that the apparent observed re-entry (?) was related to Kosmos 96, then National Security implications could very reasonably (?) have required that the appropriate Disinformation (regarding the orbit) be promulgated.

I imagine pre-launch intelligence would have already determined it was a scientific mission but I suppose connecting the dots wouldn’t happen as quickly as it would today.

Serpentime wrote:As for the Soviets, I believe that they continue to offer a blanket nyet to the entire idea (?). Possibly too "embarrassing" to admit to - if true...?

Wouldn’t be the first time. :lol:

Serpentime wrote:~ Yet then again, Mr. Printy seems fairly convinced that the whole episode was nothing more than popular hysteria cut with the typical hyperbole...

To be honest, I could almost accept ANY explanation at this point, provided (IMO) that it's NOT a simple meteor.

Yeah, I’m not sure if Tim wrote that before NASA said in 2005 that it HAD examined the debris in 1965 and determined it be a Russian satellite… however the records documenting it are now lost. (LOL now THAT should ease the minds of conspiracy theorists!)

Serpentime wrote:Though only my personal opinion, I believe that the logical justification for my assumption would be found in the purviews of Power Politics, human nature being what it is. :(

To quote Francis Bacon (one of the men who first envisioned the idea of America - or New Atlantis - in the early 1500s, I believe?):

"Knowledge is power."

Indeed it is! I’m just not sure what the strategic advantage would be in this case.

Serpentime wrote:Rather instead, I would attempt to use my "knowledge" in a more "manipulative" way - perhaps "steering" the common population in directions that I (but not necessarily "they"...) would fully understand, appreciate, and approve of.

I think you might be giving the USG way too much credit, I often get the distinct impression that Washington is asleep at the wheel… or a giant sloth.

My philosophy is simple, "trust but verify" and...

“Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity”

That's my $0.02 anyway…

Serpentime wrote:~ I just caught the Heaven and Hell 2007 tour about six weeks ago. Front row, stage right - right on the rail. :D I even got to exchange a cordial Malich (that "Horns" thingy... LOL) with Tony. AWESOME show!!

Sucks to be you. :)

Serpentime wrote:"If you listen to fools... the Mob rules." ;)

And it’s a given rule that we’re all fools! ;)

Two eyes from the east
It's the angel or the beast
And the answer lies between
The good and bad


Right now I’m listening to Dave Mustaine’s latest… Meagdeth’s “Untied Abominations”… highly recommended! “Washington Is Next!” is a killer track.
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby Serpentime » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:17 am

Access Denied wrote:I think Mr. Oberg simply resigned himself to the position that he couldn’t conclusively prove to himself with the available data that Kosmos 96 was responsible therefore he couldn’t reasonably expect others to accept his conclusion. I admire that.


I admire it, too. :) There's a lot more that I'd like to know about this particular case, myself. Until then, I'll just have to admit that I really don't know (conclusively) either. :(

Access Denied wrote:I imagine pre-launch intelligence would have already determined it was a scientific mission but I suppose connecting the dots wouldn’t happen as quickly as it would today.


Yeah... The (documented) rapid (?) dispatch of the three man unit to the site seems to suggest (to me) that the AF may have had some sort of "pre-cognition" (?) in this case (?). I suspect that Blue Book probably took its fair share of meteor reports over the years, but how many times did they start combing the woods for space rocks?

~ On the other hand, Foreign Technology (respondent to an official collection tasking) might have made for a far more worthwhile search "effort", however... (?).


Access Denied wrote:Yeah, I’m not sure if Tim wrote that before NASA said in 2005 that it HAD examined the debris in 1965 and determined it be a Russian satellite… however the records documenting it are now lost.


Well, as soon as NASA finds those records, I want to see them!

I'd love to confirm my Gnosis of Occam's Razor. ;)


Access Denied wrote:
Serpentime wrote:"Knowledge is power."

Indeed it is! I’m just not sure what the strategic advantage would be in this case.


Population control. And the protection of profit and prerogative. Just my opinion...


Access Denied wrote:I think you might be giving the USG way too much credit, I often get the distinct impression that Washington is asleep at the wheel… or a giant sloth.


One certainly does get that impression. :) And that's exactly why the CIA was able to classify an RB-29 (I believe?) photo of "Noah's Ark" on Mount Ararat for 40 or 50 years...

Not much intelligence value there, either, huh?

Psychological advantage, however?


~ Maybe? ;)


Ronnie Dio wrote:Two eyes from the east
It's the angel or the beast
And the answer lies between
The good and bad


Exactly. :)

Or, in other words: "There’s your way, my way, and the way it actually happened." ;)

Three sides to every story.


Access Denied wrote:Right now I’m listening to Dave Mustaine’s latest… Meagdeth’s “United Abominations”… highly recommended! “Washington Is Next!” is a killer track.


Washington should be next, in my humble opinion. :D

They played that one about halfway through the set. I gave Dave a big grin and he "sneered" back at me. You know what I mean... ;)

I love Dave. :)



Serp
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby Access Denied » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:28 am

Serpentime wrote:There's a lot more that I'd like to know about this particular case, myself. Until then, I'll just have to admit that I really don't know (conclusively) either. :(

It’s not looking good for the evidentiary thread. :shock: :)

Serpentime wrote:~ On the other hand, Foreign Technology (respondent to an official collection tasking) might have made for a far more worthwhile search "effort", however... (?).

That's an interesting thought. Maybe they got there first? Wasn’t Blue Book by this time pretty much a couple of desks?

Serpentime wrote:Well, as soon as NASA finds those records, I want to see them!

Well, here’s the latest from Leslie Kean (CFI) who’s still hot on the trail if you haven’t seen it yet…

http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/kecksburgletters.pdf

Apparently she was told they were lost in the 90s but judging by her response to the “debumker's” points I’m not confident she would advertise finding anything conclusively ET negative. :?:

Serpentime wrote:Population control. And the protection of profit and prerogative. Just my opinion...

That would require an omniscient hidden permanent government in possession of the ultimate American Express trump card and I just don’t see any evidence for that let alone fathom how it could possibly work… but that’s just me. If history is any indication, real conspiracies traditionally have a very short half-life as I understand it, especially as the number of past/present participants increase.

Serpentime wrote:I love Dave. :)

Yep, he’s definitely a character. :D Oh what stories I could tell you about partying with Dave et. al. at the Cathouse “back in the day”… if only I could remember it. 8)

P.S. Thanks for correcting my spelling of “United Abominations”… I’m such a dork sometimes. :roll:
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby Serpentime » Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:46 am

Access Denied wrote:It’s not looking good for the evidentiary thread. :shock: :)


Not if we're looking for Aliens in Pennsylvania, it isn't. To my mind, this always appeared to be a weak case for ET. Better for Kosmos / Venera, but like miss Kean said:

In the meantime, we still have a real mystery on our hands, still unsolved and still under investigation.


Likely a "terrestrial" mystery, but still a mystery anyway.


Access Denied wrote:Wasn’t Blue Book by this time pretty much a couple of desks?


It was always just a couple of desks: A junior (or later, field grade) officer, one or two NCOs, and a couple of civilian secretaries. As a "unit" of FTD's Air Technical Intelligence Center, Sign / Grudge / Bluebook was not referenced in the AFRs (I believe, but I could be wrong?).

FTD was.

UFO reports received by FTD / ATIC would likely have been analyzed for Foreign Intelligence value before being passed "down" to Bluebook to "investigate", or "disseminate", to Congress or to the public.

Captain Ruppelt changed the name from "the new Project Grudge" to "Bluebook" shortly after the "program" was revitalized in 1951 - likening his assignment to the old familiar test booklet. While Ruppelt seemed to do his best to conduct serious investigations, he was finally ordered "home" from DC during the famous '52 flap, and began to doubt the "scientific" intentions of his superiors.

Robertson's January 1953 recommendations effectively turned post-Ruppelt Bluebook into a "psychological" asset of CIA.


Access Denied wrote:That would require an omniscient hidden permanent government in possession of the ultimate American Express trump card and I just don’t see any evidence for that let alone fathom how it could possibly work… but that’s just me.


AD, you should try thinking like a Central Banker sometime. It's kinda' fun. ;)

~ All you have to do is switch a few simple percentage points around and you can alter the destinies of nations, and of millions of individuals, all over the world. {...And even better: We The People don't get a vote. :( }

Dave Mustaine wrote:You take a mortal man, and put him in control; Watch him become a God. Watch, people's heads'll roll...


If you have some spare time, see if you can find a copy of Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope.

Quigley was a world class macro-historian who taught at Harvard, Princeton, and Georgetown's well respected School of Foreign Service. President Clinton was one of his former students, and highly recommended what has been called an "In-depth, Definitive Work on the World's Power Structure".

In brief, Quigley presents a multiperspective overview of the formative geo-political, economic, and scientific, events of the Twentieth century (1914 - 1966) as seen through the (thinly veiled?) eyes of the British Banking Establishment, to whom he had once been a close confidant.

{It seems that his "associates" did not want this book published. ...One of the most fascinating, scholarly, and detailed histories of this important period was summarily rejected by all of the major publishing houses. :shock: Not that it might reveal a psychological (?) macroperspective shared by the the World's most influential Money Managers, or anything.... Joe Average would never understand anyway. LOL}


Overall, Quigley makes a useful case (IMO) that the destiny of billions (and history itself, perhaps?) is dis-proportionately influenced by a VERY small handful of wealthy and powerful men that most of us wouldn't recognize by name.

~ For instance, without the deliberate determination of German industrialists, bankers, aristocrats, and academics, Adoph Hitler would never have been elected to the Chancellorship of Germany in 1933.

...Perhaps (?) it seems that Hitler presented these men with what - they thought, at the time - was the best opportunity to restore order to Germany following the Weimar depression, and thereby secure the "stable" markets for future investment that was at the spiritual core of their own interests.

Tough luck, but it just didn't work out that way - and tens of millions of human beings died, instead. ~ Oops. :(


At the very least, Tragedy and Hope is a provocative read (again, IMO).

{And it might even give new meaning to that old observation: "Peace sells, but who's buying?" ;)}


I'd love to give you a link, but it's a rare book only available in hardcover. 1300 pages. :)


Access Denied wrote:Oh what stories I could tell you about partying with Dave et. al. at the Cathouse “back in the day”…


Wow, life sucks for you, too. :P Didn't Dave really have it in for Rikki, back then? I've always heard that Dave enjoyed using Rikki as his personal pinata!! LOL


Access Denied wrote:if only I could remember it. 8)


Ah... Wake up dead!! :D
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Next

Google

Return to Best Evidence

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron