The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

Hard to debunk

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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:44 pm

the helicopter hypothesis (that it was a Bell 47G carrying a test vehicle) doesn't hold water.

Glad you've finally seen the light!

AD is adept at throwing sand in the umpires face unfortunately. He can't seem to make up his mind if he thinks Lonnie saw a Bell 47 or a Surveyor test LM or both. But it's good to see that you agree with Serp and I (and Major Quintanilla) that the Bell theory doesn't hold water.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:02 pm

wetsystems wrote:AD is adept at throwing sand in the umpires face unfortunately. He can't seem to make up his mind if he thinks Lonnie saw a Bell 47 or a Surveyor test LM or both. But it's good to see that you agree with Serp and I (and Major Quintanilla) that the Bell theory doesn't hold water.


I do agree that if we all are operating here under those constraints, and are not allowing hypothesis generation that considers "unknown" test flights, then yes the Bell theory alone doesn't completely make sense.

However it's unfair to AD to claim that because that part of the theory doesn't work, that there aren't still very valuable elements to it that might still hold valid. I still believe that the terrestrial "test-flight" hypothesis holds much more weight than the ETH, in this case alone, for the reasons I've listed in response to you above. Most importantly because this is an area of the country with a very high level of experimental tests during that time period.

As certain people are very fond of saying often: "we don't know what we don't know". I guess in this case, that could actually be true.

-Ry
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:43 pm

This post is dedicated to John Hicks.

I (Ryan) do agree that if we all are operating here under those constraints, and are not allowing hypothesis generation that considers "unknown" test flights, then yes the Bell theory alone doesn't completely make sense.


We're not 'operating under any constraints' here. If you have evidence that supports your own 'test flight thesis', please present it. But bear in mind that neither Hynek nor Quintanilla found such evidence. To hypothesize 'unknown test flights' is simply to admit that this incident remains unsolved. That has been my point since the very beginning. In that sense the ET possibility stands. Why should we have a problem with that possibility? After all- we're all here to Uncover Reality. Sometimes Reality throws us a counter-intuitive curve.

Over and out Number One. Carry on.

{Mod edit - picture too wide, converted to a link} - AD

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/assets/j ... cy_1_e.jpg

Cy Young throwing his famous counter-intuitive curve- the original unidentified flying object

Another example of counter-intuitive curve expertise:

Image
Last edited by wetsystems on Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:47 pm

Earlier on in this thread this is what AD proposed as the object mistaken for an 'egg' by Lonnie Zamora. It's worthy of reprieve.
Image

Note the Farengi alien delegation. That's AD in the middle and Ray Hudson (with crew-cut), to the right standing in front of the Zamoran huevo.

He later amended his position to state that it was not the LM pictured above but rather a Bell helicopter that so confounded Mr. Zamora.

{Mod edit - picture too wide, converted to a link} - AD

http://a739.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/im ... c7800a.jpg

Note that the aliens have aged a bit, indicating that this photograph is of a more recent vintage. Go figure.

We, at RU, owe a great debt of gratitude to Mr. AD for solving this 43 year old mystery and we hereby award him the GOLDEN SYLVESTOR AWARD FOR PSEUDO SCIENTIFIC ENQUIRY, 2007. Congratulations Mr. AD!!!!!
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:27 pm

wetsystems wrote:In that sense the ET possibility stands. Why should we have a problem with that possibility?


Do you even understand how hypothesis generation and testing works? Please quote where I ever said the ET possibility is no longer a viable option. I've written about the weight...hold on...let me repeat that since you appear to only skim posts....I've commented about the WEIGHT of each hypothesis - not that the ETH had been "shot down" and was no longer acceptable. And I have to tell you Toon/Kim/**Hater** (slang word - know what it means? You should, you exemplify it.) that every time you put words in my mouth it shows how thoroughly you've covered your own eyes with blinders. You appear to be the only one here prematurely cancelling out a hypothesis.
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:38 pm

You appear to be the only one here prematurely cancelling out a hypothesis.


Now, now- just hold your water here. I'm only quoting. Please be more specific.

And why did you spagank my post on the 'Spiritual' thread. Too threatening? oops.... sorry.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:14 pm

Do you even understand how hypothesis generation and testing works?


Tell me, Number One.

But don't have a stroke.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:49 pm

Actually, you know what Kim - I could waste half my night skimming back through this thread and shove in your face the multiple times you called AD's hypothesis impossible or the like - and I'm sure my not doing so will feed whatever fire keeps you acting like you've got some bone to pick with everyone and their mother.

But the real reason I won't is because I'm done with you. Any more insensitive, immature, rude, antagonizing, or spiteful comments and you're simply out of here - and I gaurantee most of our readers will probably agree that this place will be all the more better for it.

You have this view of yourself as the defender of freedom of trailor-trash speech, while all you succeed in doing is attacking, insulting, and offending every good person who comes around to take part in a mature, respectful and intelligent conversation.

I won't allow you to drag all of our threads into the gutter. Absolute silence is better than what you bring (or fail to bring) to these discussions.

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Postby Serpentime » Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:41 am

ryguy wrote:Ok - if this discussion is under the contraints of only the known (and currently unclassified) tests possibly conducted on April 24, 1964, then I've no choice to concede your point for the purpose of this discussion.

...My error here was assuming that this discussion included proposing alternative hypothesis than the T-2H tests. I'd actually be interested, in time, to hear your proposed hypothesis, Serp, if you'd be willing.


No, Ryan. I don't think you've made an error, at all. :) In fact, anyone who can present a validated (or, "validate-able"?) theory on this case is more than welcome to contribute their ideas, too - as far as I'm concerned.


Earlier on, AD asked that this discussion be scientifically oriented:

Help me Serp, what’s a poor Scientist to do? :)


...and then proposed the documented (?) Surveyor test of April 24, 1964 as a likely - in his opinion - hypothesis to explain the Zamora sighting.

Throughout the subsequent discussion / research effort, I have been attempting to assist him in constructing a testable theory of the alleged Surveyor test that will validate against all known scientific evidence gemane and acknowledged to the case.


~ Call it a dose of "Tough Love", if you will. ;) LOL

{I know he doesn't believe me... ROTFL ;)}


Between our combined efforts, we (and Project Bluebook, arguably?) appear to have concurred that the April 1964, White Sands Missile Range Log entry of a planned T-2H flight, offers the best evidentiary basis for the Surveyor hypothesis, and therefore have eliminated (I think?) each of the other likely (?) candidates.

For that reason, the scientific discussion has come to focus soley on the Surveyor hypothesis to the exclusion of all others. But, as I said before - anyone else who can offer any germane hypothesis, facts, or other scientific evidence, that may SOLVE the Zamora case is more than welcome to contribute them. :)


My hypothesis states that the case remains a scientific "unknown", as submitted by Captain Hector Quintanilla in the conclusion of the Project Bluebook investigation.


ryguy wrote:And by the way, if so - and we must assume that there could not have been any other experimental tests conducted on that day, and that this was a T-2H evaluation (and not something "other") - then the helicopter hypothesis (that it was a Bell 47G carrying a test vehicle) doesn't hold water. Plenty of accounts out there indicate that the Bell 47G can be heard at least a mile away (even from within a closed vehicle I suppose).


If we are to scientifically analyze this case from the helicopter perspective, there may indeed be difficulties (?). I should have more to offer on this problem soon. :)


ryguy wrote:I do have to say that in this case, and in this thread, you've done a superb job playing devil's advocate on this particular hypothesis. Not always an easy job, I know.


LOL

Why, thank you. :)

As AD well knows, I'm not The Most Beautiful Angel for nuthin'....

:D


Serp


P.S. I think that Toon has brought a balancing perspective to these proceedings, and - so long as he plays nice :D - I'm inclined to keep him, and his "special" perspective, around. :)
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Postby wetsystems » Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:57 am

No, Ryan. I don't think you've made an error, at all. Smile In fact, anyone who can present a validated (or, "validate-able"?) theory on this case is more than welcome to contribute their ideas, too - as far as I'm concerned.


I made exactly these points. I wonder why they need to be restated time and time again.

For your information:
We're not 'operating under any constraints' here. If you have evidence that supports your own 'test flight thesis', please present it. But bear in mind that neither Hynek nor Quintanilla found such evidence. To hypothesize 'unknown test flights' is simply to admit that this incident remains unsolved. That has been my point since the very beginning. In that sense the ET possibility stands. Why should we have a problem with that possibility? After all- we're all here to Uncover Reality. Sometimes Reality throws us a counter-intuitive curve.


But hell- I guess I'm just trailer trash:

You have this view of yourself as the defender of freedom of trailor-trash (sic) speech,

Wow! Talk about a counter-intuitive curve!!
Last edited by wetsystems on Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Serpentime » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 am

Aw, don't worry, guys...

The science will speak for itself. :)

In fact, I believe that the whole (?) purpose of employing the Scientific Method is to filter out people's EMOTIONS. ;)


Serp. :)
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Postby wetsystems » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:15 am

Serpentime wrote:Aw, don't worry, guys...

The science will speak for itself. :)

In fact, I believe that the whole (?) purpose of employing the Scientific Method is to filter out people's EMOTIONS. ;)


Serp. :)


Sometimes common sense alone suffices- as in "does that helicopter really resemble an egg?"
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:37 am

wetsystems wrote:
Access Denied wrote:Can you cite a source for your claim that he was “very familiar with all different types of aircraft”?


Sure. The source is Major Hector Quintanilla, Director of Project Blue Book:

Man that one flew right over your head… oh the irony. :D

Folks, you heard it here first… Toon is now officially an Air Force apologist! :lol:

wetsystems wrote:He later amended his position to state that it was not the LM pictured above but rather a Bell helicopter that so confounded Mr. Zamora.

The record speaks for itself... your constant spamming of this thread with straw man arguments won’t change that… but I’m sure you’ll keep trying.

Serp is willing to vouch for you though so I guess we’ll see…
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:49 am

Serpentime wrote:Normally, a scientist completes his or her experiments, and conclusions, before presenting them, so I just wanted to ensure that the basic outline that I offered corresponded to your ideas.

My ideas are one thing… getting them on to paper is a whole different ball game. My boss at work calls me Dr. Tom but I know better than that… he’s the one who has to publish or die… my job is simply to help him get good data. :)

You know this would have been a whole lot easier if you would have called me a couple of weeks ago like I suggested so I could explain everything to you… nothing like communicating at the speed of sound. ;)

Speaking of a blast from the past..

Serpentime wrote:I guess that we should probably thank Slash for bringing the Les Paul back. :D I might not have saved my pennies for an LP Standard (Cherryburst) without him. LOL

I knew there was some reason I liked you…. besides your taste in Metal. :) I have a LP too… black 70s era “TV” flat top (nice and light on stage)… Kahler gold tremelo… custom electronics by yours truly… Bill Lawrence pickups… Roland GR interface etc… it was a worn out piece of crap when I bought it though.

Serpentime wrote:Oh God… all those effects make my head spin! LOL I guess I’d rather just plug my old Marshall Gov’nor and my Crybaby into my 5150 and tough it out. If I get “ambitious” enough (haha…) I might even add a BF-2 and my (poser LOL) Digitech RP3 into the line.

Nice amp… I run a ME-10 through a Fender 75. Eww Digitech… but I see you do have a BF-2 so that’s cool… but no Phase 90 and you call yourself a EVH fan? :)

Serpentime wrote:~ Edward Van Halen, I’m NOT. ROTFL

Welcome to the club. Here’s my (c. early 80s) antithesis to “Eruption” …

http://neverworld.net/tom/tunes/TGD_Discovery.mp3
(sans the killer chops and distortion lol)

Oh and like EVH I play keyboards too, here’s a short improv…
http://neverworld.net/tom/tunes/TGD_High_Strung.mp3

And I tried to write the world’s shortest song…
http://neverworld.net/tom/tunes/TGD_Neverworld.mp3
(15 seconds so I could use it as my answering machine greeting)

Serpentime wrote:I appreciate your response and hope that it will contribute to the reduction of any further confusion, or misperception. As always, it appears that you've done some excellent work here. :)

Thank you and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to clarify.

Serpentime wrote:So my only remaining question is: Were the "main features of flight models" the main features of the RADVS, or were they the main features of the entire lander?

Exactly, though one wonders what features of the RADVS you could do without when testing it? :)

Serpentime wrote:From this statement:

These tests were conducted at the White Sands Missile Range near Alamogordo, New Mexico. The helicopters used in the testing were equipped with a complete mock-up of the RADVS, employing a special test fixture that positioned the two antenna modules in the same relative locations and beam pattern geometry as on the actual spacecraft.


...it does appear that the actual Spaceframe may not have been employed in these tests?

Hence my doubt. That’s how it appears but also note that it states here it was a “complete” mock-up of the RADVS which would seem to resolve any ambiguity in the first statement. The “special test fixture” could be a reference to one of the Spaceframes with additional provisions for all the instrumentation listed (magnetic tape recorder, oscillograph, camera, telemetry transmitter, antenna, power supply etc.). I know that stuff wasn’t exactly compact lol in 1964 but what I don’t know is if there would have been enough room in a Bell 47 for it all. Again, we really need a photo or diagram of this setup otherwise I’m afraid we’re flying bind here. ;)

[it might offer some clues to the source of the “symbol” too]

Anyway, if we assume for the sake of argument it was just RADVS then that’s where my “alternative” theory comes into play…

Serpentime wrote:All that I wanted to know was whether this "securing" (if necessary, and if that's what one might call such a thing?) might provide a reasonable basis for the two alleged helicopter technicians to have been observed on the ground with their helicopter concomitantly landed and shut down.

OK I see what you mean now. If we take Zamora’s account as it appears in Blue Book literally (flame on takeoff *and* landing) even though there’s some doubt regarding it’s accuracy according to Hynek (and others) then, as usual, I see several possibilities… :)

1. The propulsion system would require some recycling (e.g. purging) between firings as this was not it’s normal mode of operation.

2. The instrumentation likely required some manual intervention/reconfiguring between tests assuming this could not be accomplished from within the cockpit.

3. The may have had to land to literally “secure” something that had inadvertently become “unsecured” or because they were otherwise experiencing some sort of problem that required manual intervention.

Serpentime wrote:FWIW, I agree that the S-8 (?) Test Article most likely remained attached to the helicopter.

S-8 is a possibility but it also seems possible that it could have been the T-2 (soon to meet it’s demise and become the T-2N-1 lol). For example, as noted previously, they were already behind schedule (drop testing was scheduled to begin on April 8th) and the first attempts on the 3 days prior to Zamora’s sighting were aborted. It seems plausible to me that they could have rigged up the T-2 to the Bell 47 instead of a balloon in order to acquire some time critical data they were maybe hoping to get from the drop tests. This may also explain why the T-2H test flight originally scheduled for the AM didn’t go off until the PM… i.e. retrofitting… or as we like to say in the R&D world “liberal application of duct tape”. :)

[purely speculation though]

Serpentime wrote:
Access Denied wrote:(e.g. why would they fire the vernier engine(s) again as they took off as Zamora claimed?).


That's an excellent question that you pose (IMO). If I'm correct, the overwhelming focus of the Surveyor testing was on the descent phase of the landing?

Correct, but on the other hand, it seems plausible to me that some useful data could be obtained from hovering and/or translating near the ground with the vernier engines running to validate the RADVS in the “real world”… particularly in regards to the aforementioned critical 14 ft. range mark… cut off the engines too soon (or too late) and landing on the Moon would almost certainly have been a “smashing” success. :)

Serpentime wrote:I selected the Air Force (Bluebook) investigation because it was unable to determine the source of the sighting after Captain Quintanilla claimed to have investigated the event to the best of his abilities (?) with the Congress and Lyndon Johnson looking over his "shoulder".

Nope, no pressure there. :)

Serpentime wrote:If the "unknown" stimulus in question was, in fact, a Surveyor / helicopter combination, then it would appear (?) that this solution was implicitly "hidden" from him for "useful" reasons?

Like making Blue Book look incompetent or as in some good old-fashioned inter-agency/service rivalry was at play? As if *that*’has never happened. :)

Serpentime wrote:Given all known circumstances, this would be my assumption (?).

If we assume for the sake of argument there’s an Earthly explanation then yes, it’s practically a given don’t you think?

Serpentime wrote:~ Bluebook appeared to have been fully aware of the Surveyor testing at that time (or, at least, the existence of the program itself outside of its details). As you know, related official correspondence was exchanged with some of the contractors.

You’ve seen the letters he wrote to Hughes and JPL. Did those appear to be the basis for a “thorough” investigation to you? He clearly ran into a brick wall despite his “need to know”. Contrast that to the very specific letter he wrote to the Army re: Project Cloud (something or other?) for example.

Serpentime wrote:As far as the LLRV (the flying "bedstead"?), I think that Surveyor testing may be the better candidate for this incident. After all, isn’t Dryden Flight Research Center located at Edwards AFB, California?

Agreed but WSMR *is* on the way to EAFB from Buffalo, NY. :)

[trying my best to think like a conspiracy theorist]

Serpentime wrote:Regarding the Hughes OH-6 “Loach”, or any other alleged helicopter, the information that AD has located indicates that it was, indeed, the Bell 47G that was used for the T-2H tests.

Ry does have a point though, for example it’s not entirely outside the realm of possibility for Hughes to have used one of their own helicopters for Surveyor testing (in a pinch or to go “stealthy” lol) but you are correct, there is no evidence for that. While the RTI documentation indicates more than one helicopter was used, the Hughes report only mentions the Bell 47G specifically. At any rate, I don’t think we need to go there.

Serpentime wrote:It is not silent, and can be heard – in my experience – from nearly a mile away (at least).

No doubt but no matter what the circumstances are? Besides, how can you even be sure what the circumstances actually were?

Serpentime wrote:Right now, I’m contemplating / developing a four part post… but I’ll try to reduce it in overall length if I can.

Cool, looking forward to it. Brevity is a skill I’ve yet to master myself so I wouldn’t worry about it too much :)

Wait, stop the presses!

I don’t know why I overlooked this before but if the following is true this raises some serious doubt in my mind about the “integrity” of Lonnie Zamora’s testimony and may be the source of some of the discrepancies I’ve tried to point out (to no avail apparently)…

Image
L-R: Sgt. Lonnie Zamora, Mr. Burns (FBI), Maj. H. Mitchell (AFMDC), Coral Lorenzen of APRO, and Sgt. Castle of the Military Police.

http://www.nicap.org/zamora3.htm

[emphasis mine]

Wendy Conners wrote:Sgt. Castle was the NCOIC of the SRC M.P. from White Sands Missile Range. His immediate supervisor was Captain Holder. Lt. Col. Conkey and Major H. Mitchell were from the AFMDC and reported to FTD on the results of their investigation.

First notified was Mr. Burns of the FBI who notified 1st Lt. Hicks, Executive Officer of Co. C, USAF about the incident. Hicks notified Captain Richard T. Holder, the Up-Range Commander. Holder then stopped and picked up Sgt. Castle of the Military Police and they headed to Socorro. Before they got there, Coral and Jim Lorenzen of APRO arrived. Holder interviewed Zamora AFTER Jim and Coral. Burns had already done a short interrogation of Zamora. Holder notified Lt. Col. Conkey at Holloman AFB and he and Major Mitchell headed to Socorro and took measurements, etc. of the site. While this was going on, W.P. was notified and Quintanella began his preparation to go, but Hynek made a beeline to Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque and then on to Socorro (Hynek told Vallee that he was also expected at Kirtland, but Vallee decided not to go).

Actually, in the documentation, Lt. Col. Conkey stated that he was not there, but he is in the photograph, so probably a minor goof.

Wendy Connors
Project SIGN Research Center

You can’t really argue with the photograph and this differs significantly from the quote I cited earlier from Rich Dolan’s book, Blue Book, and other “treatments” of the incident I’ve read, and even this other one on the same site (NICAP)…

http://www.nicap.org/zamora6.htm

For accuracy, details on the Socorro case itself have been paraphrased from the investigation results of James and Coral Lorenzen of APRO, 3910 E. Kleindale Rd., Tucson, AZ. 85712, who arrived at the landing scene less than 40 hours after the incident. Further information on Socorro may be found in the Lorenzens' excellent book, Encounters with UFO Occupants, a 1976 Berkley paperback (Berkley Publishing Corp., 200 Madison Ave.. New York. N.Y. 10016).

Any opinions on the veracity of Wendy Conners’ research? I’m under the impression she’s held in fairly high regard by most and as I understand it the consensus is the “quality” of the Lorenzen’s “research” and “investigate reporting” leaves something to be desired? Personally I think Paul R. Hill unfortunately wasted his time by (admirably) taking the (many obviously ridiculous in my opinion) “cases” they fed to him at face value and trying to (uniformly) scientifically analyze them as outlined in his book “Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis”. If Lorenzens got to Zamora before anybody else did then there’s no telling what the poor guy was led to believe about what he experienced… witness tampering of any sort, knowingly or unknowingly, means all bets are pretty much off.

Later,

AD
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Postby Serpentime » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:10 am

Thanks for the reponse, AD. :)

I have Part 1 of my long awaited (LOL) response almost ready to go, and should probably have it posted by tomorrow evening. (Fingers crossed! :))

My only remaining question concerns the RADVS testing equipment and/or loadout, but we can probably discuss that further after I post.


Access Denied wrote:You know this would have been a whole lot easier if you would have called me a couple of weeks ago like I suggested so I could explain everything to you… nothing like communicating at the speed of sound. ;)


Yeah, but where would all of these other fine people be at? I think they're probably enjoying this process, too. :)


Access Denied wrote:I knew there was some reason I liked you…. besides your taste in Metal. :) I have a LP too… black 70s era “TV” flat top (nice and light on stage)… Kahler gold tremelo… custom electronics by yours truly… Bill Lawrence pickups… Roland GR interface etc… it was a worn out piece of crap when I bought it though.


Awesome. :) Mine's one of the modern versions. '91 I think.

Actually, I've been wanting to build a new instrument from scratch - Sort of a cross between an SG and EVH's stuff.

Basically, I'm disgusted with my tone on any given guitar, and am kind'a getting that old impression that "If you want it done right, do it yourself..." LOL

Either that, or I'll put an Iommi signature humbucker in an Ibanez S-520 or something...


"Eww Digitech", is right!! But I fried my original Phase 90 years ago and sort of (LOL) replaced it with effects du jour...

Yeah, I'm ashamed. :oops:



And thanks for your music! Cool stuff. 8)

As for me, all of my crap is still on cassette (shows you how out of date I am...!), but my approach was always to turn the damn thing all the way up and try to imitate Yngwie. ROTFL

I used to play keyboards, too (I was trained on the piano when I was a kid), but I haven't fooled with the keys in a while. I even play some drums and bass when nobody's around. :D



Back to you soon,

Serp :)
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