The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

Hard to debunk

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Postby wetsystems » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:37 pm

I came to Taos with nothing and left with this damned tattoo.

LOL… damn hippies.


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But the final solution is just around the bend. Thank ya Jeeesssussssss.

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Now, you may ask: what does this have to do with Lonnie's egg, Albuquerque dumpsters, Eisenhower's dentist, Ken Arnold, George Adamski, Roswell, Alger Hiss, and the pumpkin papers? Nothing- except to point out the freak show continues.
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But as I always say: smoke 'em if you got 'em
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so says cs
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby caryn » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:01 am

Some excellent analysis in this thread, guys!

I’d like to string a couple of threads together, to be read in conjunction with some of the material evidence being presented here – as an exercise in recognising several distinctly separate aspects of the UFO/alien enigma, the points at which they begin to overlap and finally merge (Re: the personal or shared experience of the ‘phenomenon’, material artefacts, military and Intel interest and activity – classified technology/information collections/interests in human and supra-human consciousness) forming the body of the mythological beast, that is – the alien in the saucer….

From Dan – posted to OM, yesterday:
“A felicitous phrase for these close encounters, points to their ‘high strangeness’.

The Aviary’s Core Story deliberately and misleadingly plays down the phenomenological aspect of ufos and alien beings. The government leaks are designed to play down the metaphysical aspect of these phenomena. This bit of misdirection keeps us amateurs, for the most part, barking up the wrong tree.”

From Gary Bekkum’s SSR Blog:
“Having turned blue with bated breath, as we await the heralded Reality Uncovered disclosure report, and the promised name of the "man behind the scenes" assumed to be directly involved in orchestrating psychological operations on poor innocent UFOlogists ...

I thought it might be worthwhile to offer a preview of some of the raw material slated for a future release of Minds, Machines, and Madness: The Measurement and Signature of a Psychic Spy.

For those of you that have heard of the DIA STAR GATE program, said to have been the last of the official U.S. Government programs involving AMP (anomalous mental phenomena) -- we have heard from a second hand source that work in this area continues with a least one agency: the National Secuity Agency (NSA). Given the role of the NSA in eavesdropping in on the usual suspects, it's really not too surprising to learn that they might have been caught with their minds in the phenomenological cookie jar. There is also the trail uncovered by Jon Ronson a few years ago that seems to point towards darker purposes, which began with the search for Ron. We know that Ron has been involved with MASINT (Measurement and Signature Intelligence) and has an interest in passive radar systems.

Somehow all of this connects together in a network of social connections that also serves as test bed for unusual subconscious information channels. If you want an idea of how far you can take that idea in a popular vein, check out Derren Brown, who is now appearing on the SCI FI channel.

And this just in thanks to Reality Uncovered, from Agent Gimel of Her MAJESTIC secret service: "Although the world press has very little interest in the lunatic UFO fringe – I think they would be very interested in how ex and current Intel guys conduct business on the domestic front. Covert surveillance and analysis is one thing, understood and accepted by most of us – deliberate interference, manipulation and intimidation is something quite other. The generic UFO community has been suffering at the hands of some pretty unscrupulous people for far too long. Lab-Rats have a tendency to bite back, when given the opportunity."

And now, for the preview. Or should I have written, a little test nibble from the Lab-Rats?

Keep in mind this is raw material, not the actual story, beginning with a few excerpts taken from leaked email messages:

"You were correct that my interest is not specifically in []. My interest in temporarily removing[] from the plot is to test whether another actor will fill the role. Dan had commented several months back that the story might have created [] rather than the other way around.
Indeed your viral hypothesis may benefit from some refinement. Individuals that are infected do not simply become part of a larger sickness pool, but rather they fill specific and unique niches. But how unique are these roles and what determines their specifics? With [] temporarily removed, will someone fill in as simply another of the mythical and indistinguishable
[]s? Or will that someone fill in with unique characteristics clearly distinguishable from []? Will that someone move the story forward to the next chapter? Yes, this is a question that may be of more than academic interest."

"Why he contacted me, wanted to meet with me privately at the National Research Council, and was so unambiguous confuses me. I did not get the impression he did so because he was using me, indeed, he was insistent on privacy."

"I am not prepared to repeat what he said to me before that, because I am uncertain as to his mental state (he seemed intact, but the subject was, after all quite crazy) , he required secrecy, and he never said I would be released from it, the core story he claimed was true is the same we have heard, and because I am too busy."

"I did not intend to imply that the core story was originated in Remote Viewing, but that it was transferred into government records via that process. My actual hypothesis regarding the Core Story is that it originated within Scientology during the early 1970s. Scientologists dominated the early Remote Viewing program and used it as a venue to promulgate the Core Story."

From a Defense Intelligence Agency limited distribution secret document: "The research pursuits identified in the overall research and peer review plan have the potential for achieving highly significant results using AMP [anomalous mental phenomena] to address the problems of national security by pushing the phenomena to their natural limits."

An excerpt from the Trickster Tales series:
“As the discussion between Gary and myself developed, we pondered on how myth and thought forms might manifest as a material reality over time, specifically focusing on the MJ-12 legends. We invited one of our sources into the debate, interested to hear what he might have to offer, and once again getting onto the Viral Meme topic.

Our contact puts forward the probability that the VMI (Viral Meme Internet) is technologically driven, which includes back-door computer viruses as well as front-door information memes and viruses, and further postulates that this is being perpetrated by a cadre` inside the Intelligence-Business Community (IBC) and outside the systematic and structural IBC review.

On discussing the manifestation of an MJ-12 type consortium, our contact further offered his opinion that the MJ-12, that may have been invented, is now a reality in the body of the ‘VMI’ IBC-driven organization.

The UFO community has been deeply penetrated by the manipulators of information, who couldn’t really give a fig whether there might be any valuable data pertaining to Aliens and contact hidden behind the deafening noise. That’s not their business; their business is information warfare.

A concern, which both my colleague and I share, is whether there is indeed anyone in the ‘right places’ taking the spooky phenomenon seriously enough. We haven’t seen any truly obvious signs of that being the case. There is a level of personal interest exhibited, certainly. Professionally, an interest in how information moves, who’s saying what and to whom. Any honest concern regarding the possibility that an exogenous intelligence penetrates our reality, with apparent ease and stealth? Well, if there is, our sources are in even better stealth mode than the phenomenon.” Caryn Anscomb – Trickster Tales.

I quote Jung and Erik Davis – in the same TT series:

“Primitive man impresses us so strongly with his subjectivity that we should really have guessed long ago that myths refer to something psychic. His knowledge of nature is essentially the language and outer dress of an unconscious psychic process. But the very fact that this process is unconscious gives us the reason why man has thought of everything except the psyche in his attempts to explain myths. He simply didn’t know that the psyche contains all images that have ever given rise to myths, and that our unconscious is an acting and suffering subject with an inner drama which primitive man rediscovers, by means of analogy, in the processes of nature both great and small.” Archetypes of The Collective Unconscious by C.G.Jung.p6

My Favorite Martians: Erik Davis:

"The UFO is an enigmatic current in the fabric of the 20th century, and all our explanations are signals shot into the heavens—they either fade into the stellar maw or bounce back, echoes of our own descriptions. By remaining beyond reach, by remaining absurd, the UFO attracts our hiddenmost obsessions with scientific authority, state power, and spiritual futurism—and it demarcates these obsessions far more viscerally than more normal forms of popular culture.

UFO literature, by drawing curious readers into bizarre worldviews shored up with the language of evidence, shows how our attitudes toward information structure our reality and identity. Even if the UFO is bunk, it has become modernity's great mythic mirror. The first "flying saucers" were sighted in 1947 by Kenneth Arnold, in the year that gave us the CIA and information theory, in the decade that gave us TV, the Bomb, digital computers, and LSD. The UFO is part of a package deal—a rumor of god stitched into the dark web of our military-industrial-media complex.

Though habitually keeping a low profile, the visitors have been pretty busy since '47. The UFO and its trickster crew have crash-landed, pulled fly-bys, delivered messages of doom and gnostic salvation, sucked bovine blood, conspired with the Air Force, stolen embryos from Middle American housewives, f---- Brazilian farmers silly, and rammed anal probes into horror fiction writers. But though millions believe, and many more are cautiously credulous, the aliens remain beyond reach, in a netherworld of bad films, paperbacks, and late-night testimonies. Sightings haven't really made news since the '70s and, though Whitley Streiber's 1987 Communion ruled the charts, the UFO seems almost quaint in our cyberpunk world, a cosmic VW bug in the weedy back yard of modernity.

But the UFO has not waned so much as gone within, into the body, into the mind, into the dream of identity. Thousands of abductees, seeking to ease the psychic trauma of being dragged onto spaceships and physically abused by aliens, have solidified a sub-culture that's far more 12 Step than Star Trek. Conspiracy theorists weave UFOs into their insidious webs of government plots, while channeled ET info has evolved into the New Age's most speculative edge. And after years of cranky pursuits for the "nuts and bolts" that will prove the existence of material extraterrestrial spacecraft, some ufologists are turning towards a subtler engagement of the alien as radical mythic enigma."

Collin Bennett – quoting Codex: “ The alien is under construction”

When the curtain fell back, the Wonderful Wizard was revealed to be nothing more than an ordinary man, pulling levers….
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:33 am

Excellent, Caryn!
I think we made similar points albeit with wildly divergent methods.

When the curtain fell back, the Wonderful Wizard was revealed to be nothing more than an ordinary man, pulling levers….


Actually- 3 ordinary men- less chillingly portentous when the cabal has faces. Are these then not the Archetypes of the Phenomenological Dialectic of the Highly Strange? (APDHS)

Let's put that question to CL,CF and TF.

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The men behind the curtain

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Last edited by wetsystems on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:24 am

My favorite quote of course:

The UFO community has been deeply penetrated by the manipulators of information, who couldn’t really give a fig whether there might be any valuable data pertaining to Aliens and contact hidden behind the deafening noise. That’s not their business; their business is information warfare.


And as you've laid out above after this quote - not as much information warfare as information use in the creation of cultural myths and belief systems.

If a stereotypical version of a sci-fi UFO can allegedly appear, small scale, in the middle of a room, or a levitating arm, or a ghostly bird - related to RV experiments - these myth-makers must have found encouragement in this, and created the hypothesis that if large numbers of people have these thoughts - just imagine what might materialize in the skies above us.

The idea that our minds "create" the reality around us, sounds oddly like the familiar chant of a certain web blogger we've all come to know and love, doesn't it?

Maybe they don't know what *it* is....but they know how to make it materialize in a very "real" way. In this way - you are right, we really are nothing more than lab rats.

Cheers
-Ry
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:05 pm

wetsystems wrote:Excellent, Caryn!
I think we made similar points albeit with wildly divergent methods.

When the curtain fell back, the Wonderful Wizard was revealed to be nothing more than an ordinary man, pulling levers….


Actually- 3 ordinary men- less chillingly portentous when the cabal has faces. Are these then not the Archetypes of the Phenomenological Dialectic of the Highly Strange? (APDHS)

Let's put that question to CL,CF and TF.

Image
The men behind the curtain

k


And DS then proffered (i.e. "pontificated") this on OM:


If I were in charge of hoaxing, this is how I would do it, i.e. this is the BPW Phenomenological Hoaxing Hypothesis.

But is there someone in charge? More or less, according to the PHH.

Why & how?

Phenomenology is too important to leave to us amateurs, given that there is a phenomenological ‘problem’.


This seems to explain, in his view, how the BPW PHH relates to the APDHS. Get it? We shall have to rely on Caryn to translate and explain. I'm a little nauseous.

CS
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 am

caryn wrote:I’d like to string a couple of threads together, to be read in conjunction with some of the material evidence being presented here – as an exercise in recognising several distinctly separate aspects of the UFO/alien enigma, the points at which they begin to overlap and finally merge (Re: the personal or shared experience of the ‘phenomenon’, material artefacts, military and Intel interest and activity – classified technology/information collections/interests in human and supra-human consciousness) forming the body of the mythological beast, that is – the alien in the saucer….

Thanks for that great summary Caryn! It really helps someone like myself who’s apparently hopelessly stuck debating the “nuts and bolts” aspect (specifically the lack thereof LOL) to better understand the more subtle, but perhaps more significant, “psychological” and “cultural” aspects of the “phenomena” that many of you have been talking about. Interesting…

Now that you mention it, I find the theory that the myth of aliens from Zeta Reticuli originated with the Betty and Barney Hill story and an episode of the TV series “The Outer Limits” (“The Bellero Shield”) that aired a mere 12 days before Barney, under hypnosis, drew his alien with remarkably similar “wraparound” eyes fascinating. It would seem, thanks to the subsequent mainstream popularity of their story, this novel “featureless alien” concept (reinforced by Travis Walton in the 70s and Whitley Strieber in the 80s) has firmly cemented itself in popular culture and continues to haunt the sufferers of sleep paralysis and other “disorders” ever since.

Prior to the Hill’s “abduction” it’s interesting to note people primarily reported seeing “nordics” and before that it was “silvery suited humanoids with helmets” and before that it was “hairy little red-eyed creatures” and before that… [insert your favorite saucerless (non space-faring) mythological beast here] :)

Also, as noted earlier, the contribution of the burgeoning military-industrial complex beginning in the late 40s as an endless source of confusion (and leverage for some to exploit for their own less than altruistic agendas) can’t be underestimated either…

Retired Air Force Balloon Expert Expands on Origin of 'Majestic 12' UFO Hoax
Skeptical Inquirer, March 2001 by David E. Thomas
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_71563242

[emphasis mine and my apologies for the old news but I think it's worth repeating in reference to recent discussions]

B.D. "Duke" Gildenberg worked for many years in the United States Air Force (USAF) Skyhook Balloon program, run out of Holloman Air Force Base in Alamogordo, New Mexico. The program was involved with numerous top-secret activities on the White Sands Missile Range in southern New Mexico. Some of the Skyhook balloons were five times larger than the Hindenberg Zeppelin's seven million cubic feet, carried payloads up to five tons, and flew at altitudes above twenty miles. They were undoubtedly responsible for numerous Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) sightings attributed elsewhere to extraterrestrial spacecraft.

Recently Gildenberg has been researching the origins of "Majestic 12," a supposed secret government group with responsibility for UFO-related activities, like reverse engineering of the "alien ship" rumor says was recovered at Roswell. Prominent UFO author William Moore released the first of the purported MJ-12 documents on May 29, 1987, along with Jaime Shandera and Stanton Friedman (Peebles 1994). Philip J. Klass has found numerous flaws which prove that the documents are forgeries, most notably that President Truman's signature on a key MJ-12 memo was photocopied from a legitimate, non-UFO related letter (Klass 1990). Several other eccentricities, such as date formats, suggested links to William Moore himself (Klass 1989).

Gildenberg's studies led him to focus on two men involved with MJ-12: Sgt. Richard C. Doty, formerly a special agent with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Paul Bennewitz, president of a small physics firm (Thunder Scientific Lab) in Albuquerque, and also a UFO investigator for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). Bennewitz was very active in UFOlogy, eventually coining the now-famous terms "grays" and "extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs)." He was routed to Sgt. Doty in November of 1980, when he approached AFOSI for information on UFO sightings. Doty himself became heavily involved in UFOlogy, even appearing as secret informant "Falcon" on a program entitled "UFO Cover-up? Live!" televised nationally October 14, 1988 (Peebles 1994).

In the summer of 1980, Bennewitz began to record strange radio signals in the vicinity of the Manzano Weapons Storage Area (then a repository for nuclear warheads southeast of Albuquerque on the eastern edge of Kirtland AFB). He snuck around the area and photographed strange lights emanating from Coyote Canyon, a remote test area on Kirtland just south of the Manzano facility. But even though Bennewitz's many UFO claims were later severely tarnished by his mental problems (Peebles 1994), the curious activities near Coyote Canyon were corroborated by more credible sources, including the Military Police. For example, MPs reported suspicious aerial observations over Coyote Canyon on August 8, August 11, and September 2, 1980 (Good 1988). Armed with Bennewitz's observations, Doty contacted William Moore and provided material related to what was called secret "Project Aquarius."

The UFO researchers eventually connected Project Aquarius to covert "UFO"-related activity at Holloman, and also linked it to a site in Montana. Gildenberg thinks Project Aquarius can be directly related to a Cold War project actually called "Project Gopher," and also called WS119L. (WS stands for "Weapons System," an intentional misnomer. It was not really a weapons system.) The program was so classified that even a top-secret briefing for some top CIA officials did not reveal it (Klass 1983, p. 17).

Gildenberg participated directly in the WS119L project, which involved using high-altitude balloons to carry reconnaissance cameras directly over Soviet territory, taking full advantage of confusion between its flights and "UFOs" whenever possible. When Russian premier Khrushchev banged his shoe on a table at the United Nations in 1955, that table also held a large object -- a balloon-supported recon camera--from the WS119L program itself. The 119L program was directly linked to project Moby Dick, also heavily involved in UFO lore (Peebles 1991).

The MJ-12 documents included a supposed top-secret briefing for President-elect Eisenhower on Roswell and aliens, in which General Nathan Twining participated. There actually was a classified briefing for Eisenhower, but it didn't concern Roswell. The briefing was conducted by Rand Corporation, whose officials monitored WS119L and other classified reconnaissance programs. General Twining was involved because he was the top military figure involved with WS-119L.

But Gildenberg says the MJ-12 connections go well beyond the one linking "Aquarius" with WS119L. The Coyote Canyon sightings Bennewitz made were reported to Doty, and eventually to Moore, and ultimately led directly to the creation of the MJ-12 "conspiracy" legend.

It turns out that Gildenberg knows what Bennewitz saw in the summer of 1980 at Coyote Canyon. It happens that Gildenberg's Skyhook group was flying tethered balloons in support of a highly classified program in Coyote Canyon on the exact days the MP's reported activity. Gildenberg's Skyhook balloons were not themselves classified, but the payload they supported was.

In addition to the tethered Skyhooks, Gildenberg would release small pilot balloons ("pibals") to measure wind speeds during the experiments. The illuminated half of the Skyhook support balloon definitely presented a "saucer-like" appearance, and the bright lights shining on the small, rapidly ascending pibal balloons produced a "zooming/vanishing" effect when the lights were turned off. These effects combined to produce what looked like flying saucers skirting erratically over Coyote Canyon.

Gildenberg has uncovered many other connections between the dark world of UFO conspiracy and the equally gloomy world of the Cold War in the 1950s and 1960s. For example, part of the Roswell mythology involves a crashed alien ship near Corona, New Mexico; and, some 1980s information searches under "Corona" revealed secret classifications. Gildenberg recalls that small animals such as chimps were flown in Project Discoverer nose cones as unclassified projects, not hidden from the public. But a secret military project was also included in some Discoverer nose cones, and the name of this project was Project Corona! Corona was actually an early satellite reconnaissance program, but it wasn't declassified until the 1990s. Thus, UFO researchers looking for information on "Corona" in the 1980s would find a tantalizing but classified trail.

Gildenberg claims many of the mysteries of the conspiracy-laden UFO world are explained, once the veils of secrecy are pulled from America's own clandestine Cold War experiments.

Powerful stuff (particularly in the wrong hands) no?

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Postby Serpentime » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:57 am

"My icy fingers claw your back... Here I come AGAIN!!


Access Denied wrote:Hey Serp, rocket powered vehicles are traditionally designed to have a mass ratio (wet vs. dry mass) that is as high as possible (typical between 10 and 20) to maximize performance. Since the bulk of the mass is propellants one could reduce the vehicle’s weight by simply not having a full load of propellants and in this case the T-2 test article did not need the main (solid propellant) retrorocket to slow down it’s velocity prior to landing. Only the vernier engines are needed to simulate a Lunar landing on Earth as follows…

A special mock-up of the Surveyor spacecraft was developed whose weight in terrestrial gravity was 1/6 of the flight spacecraft. This vehicle was equipped with a complete vernier engine system, RADVS, inertial sensors, and flight control electronics.


Thanks, AD. :)

I stand corrected on the weight issue. In fact, if the expressed purpose of these tests was to study the performance of the vernier descent engines, then I think that I can better understand the specific engineering profile (?) that might be required for reducing the vehicle’s weight (I think.:)).


Nevertheless, you did ask for a Scientific evaluation of the Surveyor hypothesis:

Access Denied wrote:Help me Serp, what’s a poor Scientist to do? :)


...and this is where I feel that the correlation of available evidence between the alleged Surveyor vernier test, the recorded soil disturbances, and the account of the witness(es), remains scientifically inconsistent and un-validated.


Remember, the Scientific Method stipulates that scientists should (ideally) not approach proper scientific investigations with a desired outcome in mind. Though personal and cultural “bias” – which may influence the way in which a scientist interprets the results of his / her testing and experiments – is almost unavoidable in most humans beings, it is through strict adherence to the principles of the Scientific Method that humanly fallible (and sometimes perspective-limited) scientists are most likely to “filter out” their own “biases” from their hypotheses, theories, and conclusions.


Again, according to Dr. Frank Wolfs:

As stated earlier, the scientific method attempts to minimize the influence of the scientist's bias on the outcome of an experiment. That is, when testing an hypothesis or a theory, the scientist may have a preference for one outcome or another, and it is important that this preference not bias the results or their interpretation. The most fundamental error is to mistake the hypothesis for an explanation of a phenomenon, without performing experimental tests. Sometimes "common sense" and "logic" tempt us into believing that no test is needed. There are numerous examples of this, dating from the Greek philosophers to the present day.


From which, we are reminded that true Science (as opposed to “psuedo-science”, perhaps?) relies only upon the factual verification of extant evidence to validate scientific hypotheses.

~ In other words, according to the Scientific Method, a hypothesis is only properly validated when its predictive logic is matched by quantifiable experimental results that can ideally be duplicated beyond argument, or reasonable question, by additional experimenters.

In my opinion, this is where the Surveyor hypothesis – though it is “appealing” to some, perhaps, like the Extraterrestrial hypothesis is “appealing” to certain others (?) – does not produce a scientifically validated conclusion.


For example:

Access Denied wrote:The four (instead of three) depressions aren't necessarily a show stopper either but I need to see if I can dig up the original field reports to be sure. Stay tuned...


Speaking strictly from the perspective of Science, this discrepancy IS significant. Simply expressed (in terms of pure mathematics) 3 is not equal to 4. And neither, again, is the round plan-form of the three Surveyor landing pads equal to the four rectangular 6” X 16” impressions that were observed and recorded by many qualified witnesses at the “site”.

Discarding the established data (even a “show-stopper”, like “3 versus 4”… ;)) in favor of a contradictory hypothesis is an example of a common scientific “error” as described by Wolfs:

Another common mistake is to ignore or rule out data which do not support the hypothesis. Ideally, the experimenter is open to the possibility that the hypothesis is correct or incorrect. Sometimes, however, a scientist may have a strong belief that the hypothesis is true (or false), or feels internal or external pressure to get a specific result. In that case, there may be a psychological tendency to find "something wrong", such as systematic effects, with data which do not support the scientist's expectations, while data which do agree with those expectations may not be checked as carefully. The lesson is that all data must be handled in the same way.


Therefore, while four apparent rectangular “depressions” do not validate the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis at Socorro, neither do they scientifically select for the Surveyor hypothesis, either. In fact – and by way of comparison – they strongly tend to contradict it, as does the apparent non-correlation in the “plan-form” of the Surveyor landing pads to the observed “depressions”.

Given this discrepancy, it would appear (to me) difficult at best for an unbiased scientist – using the Scientific Method as his guide – to declare any scientific relationship whatsoever between the Surveyor landing gears and the physical evidence from the “site”.


Simply put (IMO), such a conclusion is scientifically unwarranted.



While it may be hypothetically speculated that the Surveyor sampling “arm” may have been responsible for the fourth “depression”, it would first need to be established that said sampler arm was in actual use on this alleged test flight, which was nominally intended to test the descent engines. In addition, it would be difficult to correlate the impressions of the alleged sampler arm with Hynek’s apparent observation that the “depressions” – while not forming a perfect square in their overhead “plan” (hence “trapezoidal”) – DID lie along axes that were observed to be perpendicular to each other.


{…That’s what I DO seem to remember from past readings that I recall, but then again, I also seem to remember that the actual “site” diagrams, measurements, et. al., were never made available to the public (?). The “errata” involved apparently concerned the fact that the measurements between the “depressions” were not equal, or symmetrical, but not that they were not present or significant.}


Should this alleged “perpendicular” observation and/or measurement prove accurate (?), then such description would also scientifically select against the surveyor plan-form, which featured (I believe?) its sampler arm mounted directly opposite from the opposing landing leg, while bisecting the 120 degree angle in-between the remaining gears.

While this “arrangement” would – indeed – produce a “trapezoidal” pattern of “depressions”, the manifest “footprint” would not come anywhere close to manifesting a perpendicular relationship. Furthermore, the possibility of the sampler arm creating a “depression” that was apparently (?) identical to the dimensions of the other three “depressions” seems statistically remote. ~ Again, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, this speculative “correlation” regarding the sampler arm would also appear to be inconsistent, should it be duly postulated.

Four recorded “scorch” / “burn” marks also do not appear to correlate with the three vernier engines that I seem to observe in the Surveyor pictures, but perhaps I could be wrong on this?


The notion that the helicopter created the four “depressions” (by means of some unusual “trapezoidal” undercarriage, perhaps?) while the test lander created the other three impressions (which were referred to as “footprints” in the Bluebook report, I believe?)…

Access Denied wrote:Note also that this FBI report talks about another set of three depressions in addition to the four you always hear about…

http://nicap.org/docs_nmex/fbi640508_pg2.htm

There were three circular marks in the earth which were smooth, approximately four inches in diameter and penetrated in the sandy earth approximately one-eighth of an inch as if a jar lid had been gently pushed into the sand.


I don’t know what relationship these were arranged in (e.g. how far apart and were they equal?) but could these be from the lander and the other four from the helicopter it was attached to or visa versa?


…also appears difficult to scientifically correlate, seeing as the “three depressions” in question are noted to be only “approximately four inches in diameter” and “penetrated in the sandy earth approximately one-eighth of an inch”, when the Surveyor landing pads appear at least as large as a man’s foot?

{Then again, does any evidence exist to suggest that the 625 pound test article was actually a miniature?}


Three of the “burn” marks were also observed to be situated within the boundaries described by the four “depressions”, while the fourth “burn” mark apparently lay outside of that perimeter. By definition – therefore – support for the helicopter (hypothesis) as creating the four “depressions” would also tend to suggest / imply that said helicopter was possibly RATO (rocket assisted take off) equipped, perhaps?


But then again, what rocket (?) equipped vehicle would have placed enough pressure on the ground to create “depressions” that Air Force investigators suggested would have required multiple tons of weight to displace:

Serpentime wrote:Further again, it was also suggested by the USAF investigators, that the total weight of the object that made the “impressions” would likely have been several tons.


The Bell 47 weighed only @ 2,350 pounds at maximum takeoff weight (full fuel, cargo, and passengers), and (hypothetically) less than that after it had burned off enough fuel to get from WSMR to Socorro (which is another discrepancy that I’ll address shortly…).

~ If this inconsistency IS – in fact – the case, then THIS important question continues to remain scientifically unanswered, also (?).


Access Denied wrote:Beats me since I can’t find any descriptions of this curious helicopter/lander arrangement…


I don’t doubt you, but I would love to see this “curious arrangement” for myself. Acquiring hard evidence of this combined “parasite” plan-from may allow for a more scientific validation of the Surveyor / helicopter hypothesis if the measurements and descriptions of said “arrangement” can be found to correlate with the physical evidence.

Without it, or the supplementary “hard” data that Hynek, and the other investigators, apparently gathered at the scene (in support of the Police/USAF/FBI descriptions?), it appears difficult to scientifically validate ANY reproducible conclusion at all.


Therefore, I continue to conclude that the proper scientific classification of this “case” (…that is, without demonstrating an emotional “bias” toward one hypothesis over any other, and interpreting the data-set strictly by way of the extant evidence, as Science requires) remains:


Unknown


In my opinion, it appears scientifically unjustified, and irresponsible, to select for either the Terrestrial OR the Extraterrestrial hypothesis.



Access Denied wrote:
Serpentime wrote:Moreover, there still doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence for the hypothesis that the Surveyor data was withheld from Quintanilla. Nor is there any evidence (?) to suggest that he was not duly aware of it.


True. Perhaps he simply wasn’t talking to the right people? ;)


Perhaps. But, again, strictly from a scientific (evidentiary) viewpoint, all that I have to reckon by are Major Quintanilla’s own words:

…I went from one end of the base to the other. I spent four days talking to everybody I could and spent almost a whole day with the down-range controllers at the White Sands Missile Range. I left Holloman dejected and convinced that the answer to Zamora’s experience did not originate and terminate at that base.

… Everybody gave me the fullest cooperation, nobody refused, from the high level agencies to top laboratories to which I requested for help.


{Emphasis added}

Which leaves me unable to select for any other hypothesis WITHOUT substantial evidence to contradict these arguably authoritative statements?


And speaking of the alleged Surveyor test at WSMR, I continue to find it difficult to understand how a pilot who was considered responsible and experienced enough to fly NASA’s VIP test “article” around New Mexico could have become so disoriented as to fly between 25 – 50 miles OUTSIDE of WSMR and land his “payload” only about ONE MILE from the airport of the only large city in that entire area without realizing that he should have turned WAY around and back toward the southeast…

A student pilot (without even a proper license) might be expected to make a mistake of this magnitude on a day without good visibility, but for a HUGHES / NASA professional to commit such an egregious navigational error (and not have any idea where he was, while looking STRAIGHT at the city of Socorro) seems highly unlikely, in my opinion. And I can’t imagine any good reason to test such an “article” in such an “exposed” location that far from WSMR that I would be forced to beat a hasty retreat from the approach of a local policeman who undoubtedly was only coming to the “scene” to help…


Personally speaking, I don’t know whether, or not, this conclusion is scientific, but it IS difficult for me (as a pilot) to accept the implicit hypothesis that this apparently manifest “incident” was nothing but an amateur’s “accident”.


Access Denied wrote:Maybe that’s because you’re not a half- blind drunk police officer? :D

(more on that later if you're still worried this might be evidence of aliens in our midst :))

Then there’s this from the FBI report that I’m not quite sure what to make of…

http://nicap.org/docs_nmex/fbi640428b_pg2.htm

FBI wrote:"He also noted that [blacked out] had an odor of alcohol about him"


Seems strange given the opinion by (fellow?) police officers that Zamora seemed sober doesn’t it?


But here we encounter a true, and very serious, scientific “error” that should (?) be easily remedied…?


~ If one reads the FBI documents carefully, one will notice that the reference to:

"He also noted that [blacked out] had an odor of alcohol about him."


…did NOT refer to Lonnie Zamora at all, but to the FBI’s investigation of a SECOND (strangely similar?) incident that occurred 70 MILES NORTH OF SANTA FE (far, far, from Socorro…) on April 26, 1964.


Now read the context in full:

…on 4/27/64, advised that on 4/26/64, he had met (redacted) at Santa Fe, New Mexico, and both proceeded to La Madeira, New Mexico. (sic) to check out (redacted) observations. He stated that at the scene there was still some smoldering material. He noted that there was miscellaneous rubbish in the area and that the site may have been a dump at one time. In his opinion, some material, such as a can of paint could have caught fire and exploded. He also noted that (redacted) had an odor of alcohol about him.


{Emphasis added}

So further testing of the “half- blind drunk police officer” hypothesis reveals this (mistaken) accusation to be without any scientific merit, and more likely to be the possible result of “bias” on the part of the scientist who constructed it (?)


Conversely, Special Agent Byrnes (in addition to the police officers) described Zamora in a manner such as this:

It may be noted that it has been the observation of Agent (Byrnes) that Officer (Zamora), known intimately for approximately five years, is well regarded as a sober, industrious, and conscientious officer and not given to fantasy.


So as Phil Klass used to like to say:


”There is NO evidence (that Zamora was impaired by alcohol)!!"




Speaking of the OTHER incident (and here), these documents describe the alleged landing (at one o’clock AM) of:

…something shaped like a butane tank, possibly twelve to fourteen feet high, and “long as a telephone pole”.


…which was observed to have left four rectangular “indentations” in the ground, with:

…several smooth circular prints on ground about three and one half inches in diameter at site.


which in turn may correlate with the four inch “footprints” observed by Bluebook at Socorro (?).


Perhaps (?) the Socorro observation could be explained by the Surveyor “article” with its Bell 47 helicopter some 25 – 50 miles north of WSMR, but could it possibly account for another, similar (?) data-set that was allegedly observed some 200 or so miles from WSMR at night?



Without better data (and without predilection to find for any specific hypothesis – as the Scientific Method requires of us), I find it irresponsible to select for either the Surveyor hypothesis, OR for non-human intelligence.

In sum, there are serious scientific “loopholes” to be found in either argument, and there is no conclusive scientific evidence (as I see it) to validate either conclusion.




Serp :)



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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:56 pm

Oops, my bad on the alchohol thing, thanks. :)

Sweating bullets? Nah. :D

News reports in the local paper, El Defensor Chieftain, also mentioned "an unidentified tourist" who remarked about how "aircraft flew low around here," and that the strange object was a "funny-looking helicopter, if that's what it was."

Stay tuned...
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:33 pm

Oops, my bad on the alchohol thing, thanks.


So Lonnie's famous drawing on the back of a Blackjack label was bogus? Now I'm really confused. But what about acid? It was the sixties, after-all. and everyone was dropping- presumably even the 'unidentified tourist!' Why is it that all tourists are forever unidentified anyway?

I certainly hope that you can run down this tourist, AD. We can certainly benefit from her/his testimony.
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Postby Access Denied » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:03 am

wetsystems wrote:So Lonnie's famous drawing on the back of a Blackjack label was bogus? Now I'm really confused. But what about acid? It was the sixties, after-all. and everyone was dropping- presumably even the 'unidentified tourist!'

LOL let’s stick with the JD… that was too f’ng funny and no nasty flashbacks or swan dives to worry about.

wetsystems wrote:Why is it that all tourists are forever unidentified anyway?

Because “The Hills Have Eyes”?

wetsystems wrote:I certainly hope that you can run down this tourist, AD. We can certainly benefit from her/his testimony.

I doubt that’s possible; the tourist allegedly said this to the owner of a local gas station and he's who’s the one who made the claim. Besides, last I heard, Zamora himself didn't believe what he saw was ET. Presumably this was after having consulted a new eye doctor for a second opinion.

No worries though, I’ve been doing a LOT of research this week and I’ve stumbled upon some interesting stuff and made some connections I don’t think anybody else has yet and I think I’ve about got this one nailed (to my own satisfaction anyway). I’m thinking something more formal is in order so it may be a while before I’m ready to present my complete findings.

In the meantime though I’m almost done with a more detailed response to Serp’s post which I’ll post in the next few days. I had to have a tooth removed today that was killing me but I’m happy to report I’m feeling much better now. :D
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Postby Serpentime » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:25 am

Most excellent, as always, AD. :D


I look forward to testing your data.



Serp :)


> Bummer on the tooth, dude. :( Get well soon. :)
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:55 am

Serpentime wrote:Therefore, while four apparent rectangular “depressions” do not validate the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis at Socorro, neither do they scientifically select for the Surveyor hypothesis, either. In fact – and by way of comparison – they strongly tend to contradict it, as does the apparent non-correlation in the “plan-form” of the Surveyor landing pads to the observed “depressions”.

One wonders if perhaps that was by design. ;) Actually, assuming the following widely circulated diagram for example is an accurate representation of the physical evidence to be found at the scene (which in itself is an erroneous assumption as I hope to demonstrate)…

Image

…I think selecting a non-ET hypothesis *period* is scientifically justified. :) In fact I strongly concur with the official ATIC Form 329 filed by Project Blue Book on the case…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8694623

Initially believed to be observation of Lunar module type configuration. Effort to date cannot place vehicle at site. Case carried as UNIDENTIFIED pending additional data.

The only question in my mind is why did this effort fail? I see two possibilities, not enough effort was made and/or *somebody* went out of their way to cover it up. I think there’s enough evidence to conclude it was a little of both.

Serpentime wrote:While it may be hypothetically speculated that the Surveyor sampling “arm” may have been responsible for the fourth “depression”, it would first need to be established that said sampler arm was in actual use on this alleged test flight, which was nominally intended to test the descent engines.

True, and so far I’ve found no evidence that is was, and given some additional information discussed below, I think we can safely rule out the “arm” as a possible source of *any* of the “depressions”.

Serpentime wrote:In addition, it would be difficult to correlate the impressions of the alleged sampler arm with Hynek’s apparent observation that the “depressions” – while not forming a perfect square in their overhead “plan” (hence “trapezoidal”) – DID lie along axes that were observed to be perpendicular to each other.

Actually it seems difficult to the correlate the various descriptions of the “impressions” *period*. :( Unfortunately Hynek was a day late to the party (the Lorenzens almost two) and according to the FBI report…

FBI wrote:These depressions appeared regular in shape, approximately sixteen by six inches rectangular. Each depression seemed to have been made by an object going into the earth at an angle from a center line. Each depression was approximately two inches deep and pushed some earth to the far side.

…it seems these “depressions” possibly weren’t formed due to a force vector perpendicular to the surface of the Earth (e.g. gravity) as one would expect from a “landing pad”. Instead, it seems more likely *something* dug those four “depressions” out as opposed to the soil being compressed. This appears to be further supported by the following…

http://www.dchieftain.com/opinion/38214-02-18-04.html

In addition, the Lorenzens, founders of the UFO investigating organization APRO, reported that police officers Zamora and Chavez found four rectangular marks, which tapered to a small base, of wedge-shaped impressions. In addition to these, there were four circular impressions.

The Army and FBI investigators piled rocks around the wedge-shaped impressions to preserve them. Curious visitors to the landing area had spoiled, somewhat, the round impressions.

Pictures of this evidence, gathered by the Air Force, can be seen in the book, "Challenge To Science," by Jacques and Janine Vallee, as well as in "UFO's Past Present & Future," by Robert Emenegger. Mr. Easton mentions in his article that Dr. Hynek, in a memo, explained the rectangular landing marks as scrapings and not impressions.

…which seems to indicate a general disagreement between the various investigators as to the nature of these “depressions” and also suggests the scene may have been “altered”. If so, the question is by who and for what reason? I can think of a couple. ;)

Serpentime wrote:{…That’s what I DO seem to remember from past readings that I recall, but then again, I also seem to remember that the actual “site” diagrams, measurements, et. al., were never made available to the public (?). The “errata” involved apparently concerned the fact that the measurements between the “depressions” were not equal, or symmetrical, but not that they were not present or significant.}

I don’t know if they were never made available to the public but they certainly are now. :)

http://www.footnote.com/documents/62834 ... e-book-ufo

Of course it’s not like it was any big secret, several civilians investigators were on the scene and could have made their own…

Rich Dolan wrote:Everyone came to look at this one. Within two hours, Army Intelligence from White Sands Proving Ground was there, along with an FBI agent. Hynek arrived the next day. Air Force Intellegence also investigated, as did Kirtland AFB and Blue Book Sergeant James Moody. The CIA had a file and probably investigators as well. Among civilians, NICAP and APRO were there, and also, a bit later, debunker Philip Klass. (During APRO’s investigation of Socorro, BB’s Sergeant Moody told the Lorenzens, “you get lot of cases we don’t.”) Everyone but Klass thought the case was among the most legitimate and compelling of all UFO encounters. (“UFOs and the National Security State”, p. 274)

Note who the first responder was though. ;)

By the way, all the Blue Book file photographs taken at the scene are available too but I haven’t really had a chance to go through them yet…

http://www.footnote.com/image/6977589/

Serpentime wrote:Should this alleged “perpendicular” observation and/or measurement prove accurate (?), then such description would also scientifically select against the surveyor plan-form, which featured (I believe?) its sampler arm mounted directly opposite from the opposing landing leg, while bisecting the 120 degree angle in-between the remaining gears.

Keyword “accurate” but yeah, I agree with you about the sampler arm. :)

Serpentime wrote:While this “arrangement” would – indeed – produce a “trapezoidal” pattern of “depressions”, the manifest “footprint” would not come anywhere close to manifesting a perpendicular relationship. Furthermore, the possibility of the sampler arm creating a “depression” that was apparently (?) identical to the dimensions of the other three “depressions” seems statistically remote. ~ Again, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, this speculative “correlation” regarding the sampler arm would also appear to be inconsistent, should it be duly postulated.

Agreed but regardless, as noted earlier, I don’t think the 3 vs. 4 “depressions” is necessarily a show stopper for the Surveyor hypothesis. By the same token, the hypothesis that they’re “landing pads” in the first place (not to mention identical*) is highly speculative and leads to unscientific theories like Vallee’s “self leveling” spaceship…

Vallee wrote:The investigation reveled that the craft was not built by amateurs; it had landed on uneven terrain, firmly set on four legs of unequal length in such a way as to put the center of gravity in the best position. (“Challenge To Science“, p. 35)

Seems to me a non-symmetrical perpendicular trapezoidal arrangement would actually rule out the ETH since I can’t image why aliens would not recognize the sheer brilliance of using convex circular landing pads instead of rectangles for landing gear and arranged them symmetrically to distribute the vehicle’s mass equally over the planets surface as did their Earthly counterparts… never mind their apparent use of primitive chemical propulsion. :)

* According to this diagram in the AF report the “depressions” aren’t identical…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8696092

Serpentime wrote:Four recorded “scorch” / “burn” marks also do not appear to correlate with the three vernier engines that I seem to observe in the Surveyor pictures, but perhaps I could be wrong on this?

Hard to say. According to the diagram in the Blue Book file (as apposed to the above diagram) the layout of the three burn marks within the “trapezoid” may be a match especially considering that one of the three engines (burn mark “#2” in the diagram?) could be gimbaled for roll control…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8696060

It should also be noted that the engines were cut off just prior to landing and the fourth burn mark may be the result of it’s final approach. Also, Surveyor apparently had the ability to “hop” (take off) and rotate to reorient the arm if desired which it did on one mission…

Image
Diagram of liftoff from lunar surface by Surveyor 6

Then again, I suppose it’s possible it was simply malfunctioning at the time. :)

Serpentime wrote:The notion that the helicopter created the four “depressions” (by means of some unusual “trapezoidal” undercarriage, perhaps?) while the test lander created the other three impressions (which were referred to as “footprints” in the Bluebook report, I believe?)… [snip] …also appears difficult to scientifically correlate, seeing as the “three depressions” in question are noted to be only “approximately four inches in diameter” and “penetrated in the sandy earth approximately one-eighth of an inch”, when the Surveyor landing pads appear at least as large as a man’s foot?

Agreed now that I’ve seen the diagrams. :) However, it should be noted the four larger “depressions” are described in a memo from Quintanilla dated 27 April 64 in the Blue Book file as being 4 x 5” not 6 x 16” as stated by the FBI …

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8695311

If correct, this measurement correlates a little better with the dimensions of Surveyor’s landing pads (if that’s even what they were) and also suggests a possible reason for the “wedge shaped” descriptions (uneven ground)…

Image

At any rate, it was really only a suggestion to illustrate the point that it is perhaps futile to try and use the fairly ambiguous physical “evidence” in this case to rule out the terrestrial hypothesis. For another example, the four round smaller depressions described by the FBI (labeled as “ladder” impressions in the above diagram) are referred to as “footprints” in the Blue Book report as you noted and they’re not even round…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8696042

Serpentime wrote:Three of the “burn” marks were also observed to be situated within the boundaries described by the four “depressions”, while the fourth “burn” mark apparently lay outside of that perimeter.

Actually, it’s not real clear to me from the diagrams in the Blue Book file exactly where that fourth burn mark is. :) It almost looks like it’s right next to where one of the “depressions” is?

Serpentime wrote:By definition – therefore – support for the helicopter (hypothesis) as creating the four “depressions” would also tend to suggest / imply that said helicopter was possibly RATO (rocket assisted take off) equipped, perhaps?

Doesn’t make sense. Again, it was only a suggestion I wanted to bounce off you to see what came back. :)

Serpentime wrote:But then again, what rocket (?) equipped vehicle would have placed enough pressure on the ground to create “depressions” that Air Force investigators suggested would have required multiple tons of weight to displace.

You mean besides the LRRV which ironically (at least officially LOL) was delivered to JPL for flight testing at Edwards AFB that same month (April)? :)

Image

Image

Yes, I know it’s not rocket powered but check out the “landing gear”. Some engineer thought that was a good design so you never really know what to expect when it comes to R&D. :)

Serpentime wrote: ~ If this inconsistency IS – in fact – the case, then THIS important question continues to remain scientifically unanswered, also (?).

Perhaps not. Although I’m not exactly sure who made that calculation, it would appear based on the various conflicting descriptions of the “depressions” the evidence is ambiguous at best therefore it may be scientifically incorrect to make any assumptions (suggestions) along those lines… then again maybe that was the point? ;)

Serpentime wrote:I don’t doubt you, but I would love to see this “curious arrangement” for myself. Acquiring hard evidence of this combined “parasite” plan-from may allow for a more scientific validation of the Surveyor / helicopter hypothesis if the measurements and descriptions of said “arrangement” can be found to correlate with the physical evidence.

That would definitely help but in my current working hypothesis it occurs to me that could be a red herring of sorts. At the very least I hope you would agree that a 100% correlation of *any* hypothesis with the physical “evidence” in this case may be impossible and arguably not even necessary. Even the original investigators agreed but could not be certain the “evidence” was “fresh”.

Serpentime wrote:Without it, or the supplementary “hard” data that Hynek, and the other investigators, apparently gathered at the scene (in support of the Police/USAF/FBI descriptions?), it appears difficult to scientifically validate ANY reproducible conclusion at all.

Therein lies the rub doesn’t it? :) However, as my knowledge of the activities at White Sands and the details surrounding the (not so) “hard” data in this case has increased exponentially over the course of this exchange, I think I’m getting close to a theory that’s testable… that is assuming I can correlate it with Zamora’s seemingly bizarre original statement which nobody seems to have much of a problem with. ;)

Serpentime wrote:Therefore, I continue to conclude that the proper scientific classification of this “case” (…that is, without demonstrating an emotional “bias” toward one hypothesis over any other, and interpreting the data-set strictly by way of the extant evidence, as Science requires) remains:

Unknown

In my opinion, it appears scientifically unjustified, and irresponsible, to select for either the Terrestrial OR the Extraterrestrial hypothesis.

Sheesh, tough crowd. :) Let’s just toss Occam’s razor completely out the window shall we? :)

Serpentime wrote:
Access Denied wrote:Perhaps he simply wasn’t talking to the right people? ;)

Perhaps. But, again, strictly from a scientific (evidentiary) viewpoint, all that I have to reckon by are Major Quintanilla’s own words: [snip] Which leaves me unable to select for any other hypothesis WITHOUT substantial evidence to contradict these arguably authoritative statements?

As I said before I think Quintanilla was purposely kept out of the loop … either that or he was in on it… or he simply failed to pursue the case to full resolution. Consider for example this letter he sent to Hughes requesting (no specific) information on Surveyor…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8697929

Who dodged the question and forwarded his question to JPL…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8697964

As did one of the subcontractors who was responsible for the Surveyor landing gear who refereed him back to Hughes…

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8698029

We do not feel free to pass on further information on this program because of the restrictions imposed by the prime contractor, Hughes Aircraft Company. Additional information on this project may be in your files or available to you by contacting the Hughes Company.

How does this apparent runaround rule out Surveyor?

Also, what about our good friend Dr. Moore’s revelation?

Saucer Smear, July 15th, 2000
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v47/ss000715.htm

[emphasis mine]

We have talked again recently by phone with Professor Charles Moore, the gentleman who was Project Engineer for the Project Mogul balloon flights in June, 1947, one of which almost surely gave rise to the notorious Roswell Incident. For our money it was Prof. Moore who has been the key figure in the recent long-overdue solution to the Roswell case (although there are still many in the UFO community who stubbornly refuse to accept this explanation.)

Prof. Moore, who still has not retired, has lived and worked for the past several years in Socorro, and he has some very interesting tentative conclusions about the town's famous UFO event. Moore does not believe in the "dust devil" solution, nor the hoax solution. For one thing, he accepts the veracity of the gasoline station owner who claims a tourist told him that he, too, saw the Socorro saucer after it noisily took off.

For another thing, Moore has ascertained that a Surveyor lunar module was launched from White Sands (very nearby) on the same day as the Lonnie Zamora sighting. However, has not been able to establish the time of the rocket launch.

Says Moore: "Something went wrong and they don't want to admit it. I have good reason to believe that." He did not elaborate.

Although it does not precisely fit all the controversial details of the Zamora story, Prof. Moore believes that the Surveyor launch is the key to solving this case. As far as we know, this angle has never been fully pursued by any UFO researcher, and now that we have broken the story, we hope that someone (maybe Robert Todd??) will duly pursue it!

When we say that some of the details don't fit - we mean major things like the alleged weird symbol on the craft; the two little creatures (or coveralls?), and so on. But it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole than to attempt no reasonable solution at all! We have urged Prof. Moore to look further into the Surveyor theory if there is any way of doing so at this late date....

Seems he (with "Duke" Gildenberg’s input) had some possibly “unique” insight doesn’t it? Also, wasn’t there some “foreshadowing” of the possibly secret nature of the solution to this “mystery” from Dr. Lapaz (of “green fireball” fame) at UNM in the press at the time?

Serpentime wrote:And speaking of the alleged Surveyor test at WSMR, I continue to find it difficult to understand how a pilot who was considered responsible and experienced enough to fly NASA’s VIP test “article” around New Mexico could have become so disoriented as to fly between 25 – 50 miles OUTSIDE of WSMR and land his “payload” only about ONE MILE from the airport of the only large city in that entire area without realizing that he should have turned WAY around and back toward the southeast…

Who says the pilot was disoriented? Is it possible he was there to due to circumstances beyond his control? (necessity being the Mother of all invention) Also, it should be noted that regardless of how he got there, two other witnesses claimed the “object” came *and* went in the direction of WSPG/MR.

Serpentime wrote:And I can’t imagine any good reason to test such an “article” in such an “exposed” location that far from WSMR that I would be forced to beat a hasty retreat from the approach of a local policeman who undoubtedly was only coming to the “scene” to help…

True, it would appear the “hasty retreat” was to avoid a possibly awkward encounter with the “law”. :)

Serpentime wrote:Personally speaking, I don’t know whether, or not, this conclusion is scientific, but it IS difficult for me (as a pilot) to accept the implicit hypothesis that this apparently manifest “incident” was nothing but an amateur’s “accident”.

Agreed, it’s unlikely the pilot was an “amateur” but again, who says the pilot made a mistake? Perhaps the “accident” was the “object” being there in the first place and he was simply there to recover it?

Serpentime wrote:So as Phil Klass used to like to say:

”There is NO evidence (that Zamora was impaired by alcohol)!!"

LOL… yet he’s still called a gratuitous debunker by some. :)

Serpentime wrote:Perhaps (?) the Socorro observation could be explained by the Surveyor “article” with its Bell 47 helicopter some 25 – 50 miles north of WSMR, but could it possibly account for another, similar (?) data-set that was allegedly observed some 200 or so miles from WSMR at night?

You mean assuming the alleged witness wasn’t drunk as the FBI agent noted and it wasn’t a copycat report? :) The again I suppose it’s possible if say a Surveyor balloon drop test *really* didn’t go as planned…

Anybody see where I’m going with this yet? :D

AD

P.S. This is getting to be too much like work again. :lol:
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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:34 am

AD,

Along these same lines we contribute this recently discovered classified photograph taken 4 days after the space ship was captured by the Zamorista Liberation Front of Arroyo Seco, New Mexico in hopes that it will further aid in your research here at RU.

Image

Sincerely,

Commandante VeeDub 66, ZLF
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:29 pm

Oh the horror! Too much time in the desert sun? A picture is worth a thousand words, even unclassified ones. :D

Image
Surveyor drop test vehicle successfully lands on Earth.

Image
Surveyor test in the San Gabriel Mountains (Hughes photo, National Geographic Society, "Man's Conquest of Space", p.129)
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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:32 pm

Yep. A picture is worth a thousand words. Easy to see how that thing could've been mistaken for an egg. My baddd. Oh and those square landing pads. And that gaggle of eggmen in white suits! Well- count me among the convinced!

National Geographic Society, "Man's Conquest of Space"
Ah- the humility is quite refreshing, too.

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