The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

Hard to debunk

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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:25 pm

Yep. A picture is worth a thousand words. Easy to see how that thing could've been mistaken for an egg. My baddd. Oh and those square landing pads. And that gaggle of eggmen in white suits! Well- count me among the convinced!

National Geographic Society, "Man's Conquest of Space"
Ah- the humility is quite refreshing, too.


I feel those icy fingers lingering...
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:36 pm

wetsystems wrote: Oh and those square landing pads

You mean these? :roll:

Image

Image

wetsystems wrote:I feel those icy fingers lingering...

I look above and see
Entrails in the sky
This song ain't over
'Til the fat lady dies


:twisted:
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:53 pm

Serpentime wrote:Bummer on the tooth, dude. :( Get well soon. :)

Thanks man, it’s not the first and it won’t be the last and it’s nothing that Vicodin washed down with a Black Tooth Grin can’t handle. ;)

Some day you too will know my pain, And smile it’s black tooth grin

8)
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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:50 pm

Access Denied wrote:
wetsystems wrote: Oh and those square landing pads

You mean these? :roll:

Image

Image

wetsystems wrote:I feel those icy fingers lingering...

I look above and see
Entrails in the sky
This song ain't over
'Til the fat lady dies


:twisted:


Well- actually, these:
Image
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Serpentime » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:01 am

"I walk a long bloody road; like the hero who never ran..." -- RJD


Excellent post, AD. You really worked hard for that. :)

I admire a guy who keeps trying to get it right. :D


Access Denied wrote:Anybody see where I’m going with this yet? :D


Yes. But because I feel an extended response coming on (LOL), I will be kind enough to give you a few days "off" to recuperate from your "condition".

{I'll have a Black Tooth Grin for Dime, too. :twisted: }

Given all of the interesting data and/or analysis that you present, I feel that I should test and consider it thoroughly. ;)


Stay tuned... :D


Access Denied wrote:P.S. This is getting to be too much like work again. :lol:


Aw, who are you kidding? :P

ROTFL
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:45 am

Serpentime wrote:
Access Denied wrote:Anybody see where I’m going with this yet? :D

Yes. But because I feel an extended response coming on (LOL), I will be kind enough to give you a few days "off" to recuperate from your "condition"

:shock: Uh oh. :)

Thank you kind sir, you’re truly a gentleman and a scholar… and merciful slave driver. :)

Now that you mention it, in case you think I’ve forgotten, I still have two of your very excellent and thorough posts I’ve yet to respond to fully. Would you prefer I catch up first or just wait until we’re done with this case and pick up where we left off later?

Also, I should point out the two Surveyor pics I posted separately (the Earth landing sequence and Hughes photo op) weren’t just intended to be pretty pictures. :) I think they offer some important clues that may explain what was (and was not) found at the scene but I don’t want to explain that part of my theory yet in the hopes that somebody else (I guess that means you’re it :)) might independently catch the same thing I did... maybe I'm biased having fired so many rocket motors in the desert. ;)

[and I haven't even got to the *really* interesting data yet!]

8)
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Postby Serpentime » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:59 am

"Yeah, just keep on thinkin' it's my fault..."

O.K. 8)

As slave driver for this thread (LOL), I suggest the following course of action:


1.) Present all supporting evidence for your hypothesis as soon as you feel able to submit it. This will allow for a full scientific evaluation of the data and your synthesis through the review of intersted peers (I guess that means ME... ;)).

2.) Respond to any of my posts and/or thoughts that you wish (please, by all means... :)) with general respect for the topic now immediately at hand. In my opinion as slave driver, this approach may best facilitate the focus of conversation, continuity of the investigation, and research time allocated.


~ I would like to ask for clarification (for my own benefit) pursuant to a few of your points, but will let you decide, first, if this suggested approach is acceptable to you?


As regards the drop test / promo photos, I do have a question concerning Helicopters versus Balloons, but am not sure what end you are driving at... unless it has something to do with potential vector velocities at touchdown (?), or "collateral" damage from chemical combustion?

{Were the white "space" suits provided for protection from hazardous fuel vapors (perhaps?), or were they just photo "props"? ...Is the dust cloud significant? ...The rocket exhausts?}

Then again, perhaps you should spell out your observations and allow others to cross-check your impression?



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Postby Access Denied » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:52 am

Some more info that may be useful in your analysis Serp…

Serpentime wrote:As regards the drop test / promo photos, I do have a question concerning Helicopters versus Balloons, but am not sure what end you are driving at... unless it has something to do with potential vector velocities at touchdown (?)

Yes, note how the thrust vectors don’t appear exactly perpendicular to the ground plane and given that one of the three vernier engines can be gimbaled +/- 6 degrees and the engines were cut off just prior to touchdown, what might you expect to see at the landing site?

Image

Also note there appears to be a light colored liquid and/or gas stream of some sort to the right in the post landing pic. Could that be the source of the fourth “depression”?

Serpentime wrote:or "collateral" damage from chemical combustion?

It seems likely to me that any propellants leaking from the nozzles or as the result of an inert gas (helium in this case) purge (SOP between firings, Zamora’s “two or three” loud "thumps”?) could cause burn marks (“spontaneous” combustion) directly underneath the vehicle. (prior to or in conjunction with Zamora’s reported “liftoff”)

Serpentime wrote:Were the white "space" suits provided for protection from hazardous fuel vapors (perhaps?), or were they just photo "props"?

Good question. I assume they’re props but then again who knows? HH may have insisted on his employees sporting some *really* fancy hazmat suits. :D

Basically (being mindful of ITAR restrictions lol) Surveyor (as does the Space Shuttle’s OMS/RCS thrusters) used a hypergolic bipropellant (NTO/MMH) that is extremely toxic and volatile. NTO (generic for nitrogen tetroxide, N204, or in this case MON10 dinitrogen tetroxide) decomposes to nitric/nitrous acids (yellow-brown liquid to reddish-brown gas.. ever heard of RFNA, red fuming nitric acid? nasty stuff!) and MMH (monomethyl hydrazine) is highly explosive with metals and oxidizers (like NTO of course lol). It would definitely be wise to wear your PPE (white coveralls?) while working around it. :D Also, I believe this particular propellant combination produces a light blue flame in air and any uncombusted NTO (i.e. running slightly lean) would appear “orange” (ish). Sound familiar? ;)

Image
Engineer examines Surveyor vernier (Hughes photo, National Geographic Society, "Man's Conquest of Space", p.128)

Serpentime wrote:...Is the dust cloud significant? ...The rocket exhausts?

I think so. :) (see above and note Zamora did report dust clouds)

One other thing I would like to point out in the other Hughes photo is notice how deep the landing gear impressions don’t appear to be? Seems to me these could easily be obscured in the presence of say a helicopter’s turbulence (or the subsequent “liftoff”) especially considering one reference I found says that the (initial?) T-2 drop test vehicle only weighed 206 pounds. Note also in the landing sequence photo that, although it’s hard to tell from such a small photo, it may not have even had the actual landing gear yet (perhaps still being tested separately in parallel?). It almost looks like it might have some cushion type things?
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:54 am

A truly klassic explanation. But have you considered that an inebriated Zamora might have confused this bizarre assemblage with the planet Jupiter? Holy huevos Batman!
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:02 pm

Guys,

Just wanted you to know that this discussion is fascinating. You two clearly have the expertise to do a thorough analysis on this, and it's really interesting to watch two experts go head-to-head on a topic like this. Obviously the public agrees - the view count on this thread is skyrocketing. I guess you two are each developing a following. ;)

-Ry
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:32 pm

Since there was only one witness to the Socorro landing all alternative explanations necessary redound towards impeaching that witnesses’ credibility. (Thank you, F. Lee Bailey.)

To wit: Lonnie Zamora was:
A. Drunk
B. Blind
C. A liar or a nut

A and B have been posited here by Access. And C has therefore been implied.

The fact is that Zamora either saw what he said he saw or didn’t. I’ll add a fourth debunkery alternative here; call it: Item D- and that is this: that Lonnie Zamora couldn’t distinguish between an Erector Set wet-dream and an egg. Item D has become the choice of our resident klassic debunker since he, (himself, has acceded to the fact that Zamora was neither drunk nor blind.

Since an otherworldly and highly strange event is too abstruse for Mr. AD to consider, we have been presented with a pseudo-scientific explanation to weigh- complete with pictures! What’s next- the neo-paranoid viral meme exegesis?

The truth is (after CH Fort)- - it is, indeed, raining frogs.

(And Mr. Dube- there are three in this discussion.)

ZLF VINCEREMOS
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Serpentime » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:22 am

~ Well, I for one am pleased for ALL of the participants in this thread, whether they be talkative, or not. :)

Without exaggeration, I think that AD would likely agree with my opinion that this case (and perhaps others?) might rightly deserve a critical, scientifically-oriented, examination by more of the good folks out there. :)

Access Denied wrote:

Basically (being mindful of ITAR restrictions lol) Surveyor (as does the Space Shuttle’s OMS/RCS thrusters) used a hypergolic bipropellant (NTO/MMH) that is extremely toxic and volatile. NTO (generic for nitrogen tetroxide, N204, or in this case MON10 dinitrogen tetroxide) decomposes to nitric/nitrous acids (yellow-brown liquid to reddish-brown gas.. ever heard of RFNA, red fuming nitric acid? nasty stuff!) and MMH (monomethyl hydrazine) is highly explosive with metals and oxidizers (like NTO of course lol). It would definitely be wise to wear your PPE (white coveralls?) while working around it.


Thanks, AD. That was very informative. :) While I'm certainly not a "Rocket Scientist" (LOL), I do seem to have a longstanding memory of rocket fuels as being rather toxic and dangerous stuff...

Environmental protection appears prudent to me, but you'd certainly know better than I would. :)


Access Denied wrote: :D Also, I believe this particular propellant combination produces a light blue flame in air and any uncombusted NTO (i.e. running slightly lean) would appear “orange” (ish). Sound familiar? ;)


Quickly: Would this uncombusted NTO leave a residue of any sort on the test stand?


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Postby Serpentime » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:36 am

Access Denied wrote:Oops, my bad on the alchohol thing, thanks. :)

Sweating bullets? Nah. :D

News reports in the local paper, El Defensor Chieftain, also mentioned "an unidentified tourist" who remarked about how "aircraft flew low around here," and that the strange object was a "funny-looking helicopter, if that's what it was."

Stay tuned...


While I'm here, I thought that I might try to resolve the controversy over this "unidentified tourist"...

According to the official report filed by TSergeant Moody (attached to Project Bluebook), he spoke with Mr. Lewis A. Reddell, publisher of the El Defensor Chieftain following his (Moody's) visit to the landing "site".

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8696424

It also appears that he might have interviewed the reporter (or possibly the Editor?) who originally covered the story.


According to Sgt. Moody, the account of the newspaper men corroborated the article as represented here:

http://www.footnote.com/image/8694587/#8696458

He (the reporter?) had gone into this thing quite thoroughly and in a quite unexcited and sedate manner. His story, published Tuesday, April 28, 1964, is an excellent summary of the sighting.

It includes one point not mentioned previously:

At least one other person - an unidentified tourist traveling north on US 85 - saw the UFO just before it landed in a gulley. Opel Grinder, manager of the Whitting brothers' Service Station on 85 North, said that the man stopped at the station and remarked that aircrafts flew low around here.

Grinder replied that there were many helicopters in this vicinity, and the tourist said, "It was a funny looking helicopter, if that's what it was."

The man said further that the object had flown over his car. It actually was headed straight for the gulley where it landed moments later. The tourist also commented that he had seen a police car heading up the hill. This was apparently Zamora's car.


Which when viewed in the greater context of a direct reply to Mr. Grinder's "helicopters" suggestion, makes it sound more convincing (?) that the tourist might actually have meant to say this:

"Well, Mr. Grinder - with all due respect as a humble visitor to your town - if that thing was a helicopter, I'll eat my sombrero...!!"


But that's just my interpretation. :)



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Postby Serpentime » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:53 am

wetsystems wrote:Since there was only one witness to the Socorro landing all alternative explanations necessary redound towards impeaching that witnesses’ credibility. (Thank you, F. Lee Bailey.)

To wit: Lonnie Zamora was:
A. Drunk
B. Blind
C. A liar or a nut

A and B have been posited here by Access. And C has therefore been implied.


So far, all available evidence strongly contradicts proposition C. But more on that later, perhaps?

Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, himself, had even worked with Zamora (personally) while searching for a meteorite fragment, and could only say the most positive things about him when asked.


Serp :)
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Postby ryguy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:59 am

wetsystems wrote:(And Mr. Dube- there are three in this discussion.)


Yeah - but two are putting significant effort into doing in-depth analysis, and the third is simply tossing peanuts from the peanut gallery. ;)

Just kidding (cuz I know you can take it).

-Ry
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