Whats the point?

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Whats the point?

Postby Chorlton » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:42 pm

Forgive my rant, Im having a bad day.

IIve just spent even more time reading this Ofinioai .... fin.... Irish blokes blag and it has actually depressed me. REALLY depressed me.

I mean whats the point of even beginning to attempt to debunk something/someone who pushes out such pure crap, when you KNOW that just as quickly, another is going to come along, then another then another.
NONE of the tripe they spout is proveable or has any evidence to back it up, so whats the point?
Does anyone really care anymore?
The world is so full of chancers and liars now, its so easy to sit with a straight face and reel off amazing stories which, if it is convincing enough and sufficient research has been done, will reap financial rewards. Rewards for lying. Whats the point in wasting time researching and debunking these morons any more.
I am seriously questioning time and energy I have spent researching several UK scamsters and the big question is, whats the point?
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:06 am

Chorlton wrote:I am seriously questioning time and energy I have spent researching several UK scamsters and the big question is, whats the point?

You should have been researching US scamsters instead? :D

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
~ Galileo

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Postby Chorlton » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:35 am

But that was one of the reasons I got pretty depressed!.Ofinioiaianoin.
He American isnt he?
I must say, the stupidity and pure outright b.s. put out by Lear began my downhill slide of self doubt. But recent rubbish by Gridkeeper and some of the other stuff I have been reading have sort of convinced me there is not much point anymore.
Because of an injury Ive had to spend a lot of time in bed or resting and have used that time reading stuff outside of my normal reading matter.

Ive always known that the majority of fantastic claims made by people were rubbish, made to either gain notoriety or to boost their own credibility, but deep down inside they knew it was a false claim. What has dpressed me more and more over the last fiew years, are people like James Casbolt and Offinioiaion. These people actually believe that crap they post and say.
I now suspect theyve told their lies for so long they have actually come to believe that what they are espousing is, or was real.
Now when someone gets to that state, there is no convincing them that those things inside their heads are false. One can provide evidence ad infinitum to contradict their claims, but one is simply fobbed off as being a 'disinfo agent' or somesuch' or any other of a hundred reasons.

Todal came round for dinner on Sunday and he was also feeling as I do.
After making several Cropcircles over the last few years hes become a bit of an expert in them. He's also been totally gobsmacked by a letter he received.
This letter was from a so called 'Cropcircle Research' organisation and set out in full 'Scientific manner' why it was completely impossible for him and his friends to have made the cropcircles they did indeed make. ! Amazing.
How do you fight that stupidity?
These people are so 'up' themselves, they think they know it all.

Im just having serious doubts ,as to if researching anything these days is worth the trouble?.
It would seem people feel a real need to believe in something and they will believe in it no matter how ridiculous (Reptilians, Zeta Reticulans).
Should one set out to enlighten them or leave them in their ignorant bliss?
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

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Postby MikeJamieson » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:51 pm

I agree with your sentiments. Personally uninterested in wasting time that
way.

You're right: there's no changing a gullible marketplace.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:58 pm

Thanks for your thoughts Chorlton.

Personally - what motives me (and I believe Zep and AD and others as well) is the fact that so many people are not quite as logical, reasonable, and sane, as you, Mike, or others here.

Therefore - I found it well worth the 2-3 day effort it took to track down sources, to get feedback from pros like George Knapp and others, and then publish the whole story (regarding Duncan) so that people can at least trust that coming to RU they will be educated as to the entire story, and not simply fed the commercialized and limited version offered by typical ufo sites.

If at least we can provide folks with one small island of sanity regarding these stories - maybe the thought processes of sanity and logic will spread outward....much in the same way the virus memes have infected inward. The hope is that we will be a strong enough antidote, in time, to offer a full cure to the infection that, right now, appears overwhelming.

Heck...look at OM alone - I've seen the admin, Bren, start sending out emails in response to UFO sightings/videos that appropriately question the accuracy and veracity of those claims. That's a refreshing and awesome change to see - coming from the same person who, three years ago, was telling people to suspend disbelief regarding a story about a human-alien exchange program.

That, to me, is some real progress. And well worth the efforts. Fighting the efforts of scammers and conmen who desire to feed the infection, with a logical and reasonable approach that serves as an antidote, does several things.

1. Proves to the elitist scammers that we, the people, are intelligent and capable enough NOT to become infected.

2. Provides others who enter this field, who might become infected, a place of respite and safety in a sea of infection and insanity.

3. Provides those who are infected with a place to get some small dose of the antidote. Even though they hate us for it - in time it will do the job.

That's why these efforts are worth the time.

-Ry
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Postby Access Denied » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:08 am

Chorlton, what Ryan said. :)

[damn Ryan, almost brought a tear to my eye… now if only I could convince my wife it’s worth it lol]

By the way Chorlton, loved your recent posts in the RV thread! You have a (dare I say charming?) way of saying exactly what I was thinking but wasn’t going to say because of that goddamn Catholic guilt I was raised with and still haven’t been able to completely shag off. :x

I definitely think there are times when that kind of brutal honesty is the only way to get the point across so thank you for being here and sharing your thoughts with us.
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Postby Chorlton » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:23 am

Cheers for that AD and RY
I suppose im just feeling a bit down and sorry for myself at the mo what with recent problems with my hand and not being able to go out and gig.

Its also come about because of whet Todal has been through lately, and the sheer boneheadedness of 'the believers'

Ill be OK after the weekend. Ive got a lot of Easter Eggs piled up and I start on them tomorrow.
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Re:

Postby Zorgon » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:30 pm

Chorlton wrote:Im just having serious doubts ,as to if researching anything these days is worth the trouble?.
It would seem people feel a real need to believe in something and they will believe in it no matter how ridiculous (Reptilians, Zeta Reticulans).
Should one set out to enlighten them or leave them in their ignorant bliss?


No you should 'hang up your hat' and let people believe what they wish to believe...

Can a Muslim convince a Christian or a Jew that they are WRONG to believe what they do? How is any personal belief any different? and who appointed you "Guardian of the Truth"?

I have yet to see believers of Reptilians, Zeta Reticulans, moon Mines etc go on a Jihad to wipe people of opposing views of the face of the Earth (no matter how enjoyable that is to contemplate) I do see religious beliefs on the other hand get to that point and beyond

Perhaps deep down that is your fear? That us "Loonies" will start a revolution and tear down main stream science? Come on... okay some charlatans make a buck... so do the British Tabloids... some people truly believe and that is their right, even if it means trying to hitch a ride on a comet

So give up the fight... have some more beer and let people chose what they wish to believe
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Re:

Postby Zorgon » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:36 pm

MikeJamieson wrote:You're right: there's no changing a gullible marketplace.


Well you can... but it would take Hitler like tactics and a wiping out of all freedoms... I hope skeptics aren't advocating such extremes...

I see on the front page here "think of the children' posted... not quite sure what it means in context... but with the method that Chorlton and others use to 'defend right thinking' by tossing out insults etc, what do you think the 'children' will take home from this? IF people even let children listen to such attacks in the first place...

Would it not be better (and perhaps more effective) to calmly state your side of reality with facts and evidence displayed not in a hateful and spiteful way, but a fun and educational way?

After all that is how our side wins converts, according to many skeptics... fun and tabloid style postings...

:roll:
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby MrPenny » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:04 pm

My .02 cents.

Ultimately, the content is nothing other than a means to wrap a style around. I finally gave up trying to pick apart the factual errors....because I quickly learned that the other party often didn't give a hoot; and was perfectly willing to say any damn thing.

If someone's going to post bogus, fantasy-laden content...I say let 'em. Spell the words right, practice proper grammar, and above all.....construct your idea or argument without resorting to the egregious errors in logic and argument that is so rampant on forums. I say, let them try and develop a rhetoric and argument technique that makes even the most hardened skeptic say ....huh....

Is that difficult to do for a subject such as...I don't know...a breathable atmosphere on the moon? In my book, you betcha'. At least the attempt could be made without resorting to the ad hominem attacks or the outright refusal to answer questions when the thesis is picked apart.

Finally, proving them wrong will get you what? A Pulitzer? The Nobel Peace Prize? More than likely a sore shoulder from patting your own ego on the back.

I make it an exercise to pick apart the argument while ignoring the content. It's about the structure and the language, not the content. ATS may be on to something about "content over style". I'm not defending the people, just the concept....because frankly, I'm sick of Springer's "mates" and "bollocks".....FFS Springer, you live in Oklahoma.
P.T. Barnum wouldn't stand a chance with this crowd.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Thu May 01, 2008 12:37 am

It has been a very long time since I have had this much fun online. Not many
of the others will admit that, but the evidence is plain to see. Yfxxx and Chorlton
are going to wear out the new board from overuse. I think their post count is
in an asymptotic upward spiral. Now, if we can just get their post content to be
credible logic instead of aggressive, negative, insulting attack mode, we have
something useful there.

Zorgon actually got a rise out of Zep Tepi. I thought only Gary could do that.

Kudos to both John and Zorgon. Your debate tactics are smooth and worth
examination. Too bad that our side is being led by the nose, by their own prejudice,
emotions, and well practiced insults. If that does not change soon, I will have
to say that Zorgon and John have entered the lions den and shown the lion to
be a pussycat. I.E., Zorgon's stereotype for skeptics has found an online
example and source here to back up that claim. I am keeping score by default,
because noone else here is qualified to do so. But MrPenny's post shows he is
comming around to a similiar conclusion. (Just noticed Dazdude's similar post
in another thread. He is getting it too.)

John Lear's interchange with Ray, the L1011 debate, is a masterpiece. You
are really improving your game. Which brings me to the ONLY two points our
side has scored so far. The first point we scored is that I suspect you two are
having as much fun as the rest here but on a more cognitive level. That is something
which I hope can be reversed. The second point we have scored so far is that
you two are still here. That is a point at risk of forfeiture still. That is the point which
determines whether the ideals of this site can survive or not. That is an
excellent test "of the emergency broadcast system". Thank you for that !

Zorgon, I would like to request your permission to quote you in other places.
Specifically this:

Would it not be better (and perhaps more effective) to calmly state your side of reality with
facts and evidence displayed not in a hateful and spiteful way, but a fun and educational way?


Bingo. Your tactics in a nutshell, but better developed here than other places I have seen you
use. Our side cannot see this due to the power drill effect you two have generated. I hope
they eventually can, otherwise I might be inclined to give up hope here.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zep Tepi » Thu May 01, 2008 12:54 am

caleban wrote:Zorgon actually got a rise out of Zep Tepi. I thought only Gary could do that.


I hate disingenuity. From what I've seen of Zorgon so far here at RU, he is full of it.

Kudos to both John and Zorgon. Your debate tactics are smooth and worth
examination. Too bad that our side is being led by the nose, by their own prejudice,
emotions, and well practiced insults. If that does not change soon, I will have
to say that Zorgon and John have entered the lions den and shown the lion to
be a pussycat.


You have got to be joking?! Hah! Congratulations Caleban, that is without doubt the funniest thing I have read today. I'm sorry, but actual content and substance takes precedence over "smooth tactics" b.s. any day of the week. I'm surprised you don't agree. It seems you are only here for the "games" and not the discussion.

Hmm, thinking about it, I would say your entire post is even more disingenuous than the arguments Zorgon used in the 9/11 thread. What's your game then?

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zorgon » Thu May 01, 2008 2:11 am

caleban wrote:The first point we scored is that I suspect you two are
having as much fun as the rest here but on a more cognitive level. That is something
which I hope can be reversed.


Well I will admit that it has been more 'fun' lately than over at the other place... but mostly because there are some people here, despite their disbelief in anything I say, do have some good skills to sharpen my claws on :P Heck there were times when even AD was fun over at ATS, like in the Sea Launch thread...(from which he still owes me that cup of coffee)

To be quite frank I do not understand the 'hardcore' skeptic view that requires such venom to make a point. I understand that someone may not agree with me... even though I can back up a lot of what I say, but no amount of yelling or name calling is likely to make me change my mind... on the contrary it will only drive fence sitters to my 'cause'

The second point we have scored so far is that you two are still here. That is a point at risk of forfeiture still. That is the point which determines whether the ideals of this site can survive or not. That is an excellent test "of the emergency broadcast system". Thank you for that !


Well it was touch and go for awhile... and I do admit I have to reread my posts to make sure I don't slip out something too 'nasty' before I hit 'submit' Look, I came here originally because there were questions I had regarding comments made from ATS... I did not come here to convince anyone that anything I say is true... I don't see this possible any more than my mind can be changed...

However I see in your forum list many topics that interest me... now I am assuming that the topics exist because there is interest... is the only interest that which debunks? If not, then surely you would expect other viewpoints if only for the sake of having new material to debunk

Bottom line is we need each other... or there is little point to any argument. It does not mean however that one has to tolerate abuse

Feel free to quote anything you wish Caleban... and thanks for making this at least a worthwhile experience... even at the cost of the "Pussycats" tearing your eyes out :wink:
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Thu May 01, 2008 3:19 am

What's your game then?


Read Zorgon's post right after yours. The game in my
above post is called "respectful communication".

Starting with yfxxx,Chorlton, and AD, I have already had
to divert their animosity to me to allow that game to be played.
As you have already detected, I am now diverting yours to
me as well for the same reason. It may take awhile, but
look around. The other team already understands. Some of us
are beginning to get there.

Bottom line is we need each other... or there is little point to any argument.
It does not mean however that one has to tolerate abuse.


Well said. To develop a live serum antidote to the plague, you need samples
of the plague to get there. You can read that either way, the method still works.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Thu May 01, 2008 4:57 am

Zep Tepi wrote: I'm sorry, but actual content and substance takes precedence over "smooth tactics" b.s. any day of the week. I'm surprised you don't agree.


Hey Zep,

It might be said that this is exactly what Caleban is talking about... That being of course, "actual content and substance (taking) precedence over "smooth tactics" b.s."!

Clearly, the membership of johnlear and Zorgon have created waves even hardcore surfers would brag about on RU. Some people reacted quite poorly, even arguing that the sooner the 'banning' the better it would be for RU!

Quess what? Once this devolves into a "who's the better NAZI" argument, that's going to be a BAD thing! IMO, Caleban is pointing this out, and doing so possibly as an act of "friendship" at a time that RU is currently in the position to assure that this will not happen!

Something to think about while everyone's apparently so hyped up on emotion right now. :|
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