Whats the point?

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zorgon » Thu May 01, 2008 8:02 am

lost_shaman wrote:Some people reacted quite poorly, even arguing that the sooner the 'banning' the better it would be for RU!


Seems that group won the day ;)
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Re: Re:

Postby Chorlton » Thu May 01, 2008 8:22 am

Zorgon wrote:
Chorlton wrote:Im just having serious doubts ,as to if researching anything these days is worth the trouble?.
It would seem people feel a real need to believe in something and they will believe in it no matter how ridiculous (Reptilians, Zeta Reticulans).
Should one set out to enlighten them or leave them in their ignorant bliss?

No you should 'hang up your hat' and let people believe what they wish to believe...
So give up the fight... have some more beer and let people chose what they wish to believe


You see?, there is your biggest misunderstanding about myself and other sceptics
I have no problem with people believing whatever it is they wish to believe in. Be it religion, UFO's, conspiracies of ther own governments, or the Loch Ness Monster
HOWEVER
When they start pontificating and broadcasting those beliefs publicly as FACT without a shred of proof or with the most slimmest and tenuous of alleged evidence then I will stand up and shout NO!.
When they start inventing non existant scenarios to obtain fame/publicity and/or money or to further their own careers,then I will stand up and shout NO!
When they, with no scientific knowledge or qualifications whatsoever start spouting what I term 'pseudo scientific technobabble' I will shout NO!
I am as entitled to stand up and shout my beliefs and denigrate the liars, snake oil salesmen, conmen and hoaxers as they are to spout their littany of lies and hoaxes.
And despite what you or others say, to this day there is not one scrap of verifiable, corroborating evidence of Aliens, 'secret space stations or craft from outside of this planet visiting Earth.
If nutjobs spent as much time working on the weird and wonderfull world we live in and stop inventing things about other worlds then we might be able to understand much more.
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Thu May 01, 2008 8:41 am

There's the bloody whistle again. Offsides, flags go down.
We get ANOTHER five yard penalty. Thanks, Chorlton.

lost_shaman, in one single leap of insight, you are THERE.

Caleban is pointing this out, and doing so possibly as an act of "friendship" at a time that RU
is currently in the position to assure that this will not happen!


Giant Grin ! You have been examining my posting characteristics. Most will read that as a confusing
statement and not what you meant to say. Its perfect ! Outstanding !

As an aid for others, I think it needs clarification for their benefit. Lets replace "friendship" with something
along the lines of "good sportsmanship". We are losing this game because of our bad sportsmanship.
We are being real jerks about it. Penalty flags go up against us on every play. One more and we
will give an automatic "touch-back" score to the other team.

(Game's not over yet, Zorgon.)
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Thu May 01, 2008 9:00 am

Zep Tepi wrote:What's your game then?

In my opinion it appears the game that is afoot is Caleban et. al. are trying to spin this into a thing where if we don’t accept Lear and Zorgon “as is” then we won’t accept any “true believers” here. This disingenuous ploy to discredit RU and apparently the ATS Watch initiative in particular fails on several accounts.

First of all, RU is about quality not quantity… Lear and Zorgon both fail miserably on the former. None of their arguments are backed up by solid research and I’ve NEVER seen either of them concede or acknowledge a point to ANYONE. Sure, they may be nice guys otherwise and entertaining to some for their “skeptic bashing” value but RU is about doing credible research in an effort to increase the signal to noise ratio. If you want mindless entertainment then RU isn’t the place for you. If you interested in getting to the bottom of this mess like the rest of us… no matter what the reality turns out be, you probably came to the right place.

Second of all, ITF invited them here under the guise that they had something to contribute to ATS Watch… John said he didn’t care about ATS and Zorgon hasn’t produced anything yet. Where’s the beef? You can’t have it both ways.

The bottom line is anybody with anything USEFUL to CONTRIBUTE regardless of which side of the fence they’re on is welcome here and has nothing to fear as long as they’re willing to follow a few simple rules.


[rant]

Now on a more personal note, I should let people know Caleban (aka Nightwing on ATS and who knows what other sockpuppets he has used) has been obsessed with me for years… ever since I started the “Roswell Proof: Where is it?” thread on ATS that was deleted along with all 450 of my posts and threads at the time. It started with emails about the new Roswell evidence I posted and has been going on ever since. Now what very few people know is before I figured out he was effectively an ATS “spy” with a hidden agenda I made the mistake of telling him (and only him) about the “present” I had just got from NASA (a better copy of “John Lear’s Moon Pic”) and guess what… next thing I know I’m locked out of ATS for NO APPARENT reason. This leads me to send an email to Simon Grey and the rest is history (documented here)…

Anyway, the point is whether intentional or not, somehow what I confided in him got back to Mark… that explains everything.

Now another thing very few people know is Caleban sent me, lost_shaman, and Shawnna an email on New Year’s Eve 2006 containing copies of a private email exchange between himself and Shawnna where he basically admits he thought I was a government agent and didn’t trust me… all the while before that pretending to be my friend. Nice huh? Thanks for coming clean there buddy…

So now back to the present… who is giving me flack for suspending Lear and Zorgon the other day and trying to make me look like the bad guy? My “friends” Caleban, lost_shaman and Shawnna…

If this isn’t a conspiracy then I’d like to know what the hell is going on here and what I’m missing… somehow I don’t think if Lear and Zorgon had the dirt to expose what they know about what happened back then or any other time they would but if I’m wrong somebody needs to tell me so I can apologize… forgive me for being skeptical but I’m sick and tired of being of being f*cked with!

[/rant]
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Chorlton » Thu May 01, 2008 9:39 am

Thanks for explaining that AD. I could see Caleban had something going on but couldnt quite work out what.
The fog is starting to lift !
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby MrPenny » Thu May 01, 2008 12:57 pm

Access Denied wrote: Lear and Zorgon both fail miserably on the former. None of their arguments are backed up by solid research and I’ve NEVER seen either of them concede or acknowledge a point to ANYONE.


What's that layman's definition of insanity I read from time to time? Oh yeah....."doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." Attributed to Benjamin Franklin in some sources. The above quote from AD demands the question....Why continue?

What's to be gained by scoring points against an opponent who doesn't give a hoot? I'm trying to think of an analogy and the closest I can get is imagining the USC track and field team competing against Special Olympics athletes. Oh sure, USC will utterly trounce their opponents.....but do the opponents care? Nah, they're laughing, high-fiving, having a blast.

Just stop jumping zorgon's and lear's hurdles.
P.T. Barnum wouldn't stand a chance with this crowd.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Fri May 02, 2008 5:38 am

Access Denied wrote:So now back to the present… who is giving me flack for suspending Lear and Zorgon the other day and trying to make me look like the bad guy? My “friends” Caleban, lost_shaman and Shawnna…


AD,

If you're soo paranoid that you actually think your "Friends" are actively "trying to make you look like the bad guy", then maybe you're a bit too paranoid! Try reading what has been said WITHOUT attempting to read into some "hidden agenda" that you think is present 'inbetween the lines' and just take what's being said at face value!

I can positively state that everything I say can be taken at "face value" and there is no "in-between the lines" "hidden agenda" to be read into what I have to say. Even as Caleban just pointed out that my statement(s) might not be understood by everyone reading them, there is no "hidden agenda" to be ferreted out there. Everything I said can be taken at face value and if I was NOT a "Friend" I would NOT waste one iota of my precious free time giving a rats' *ss about any of 'this' because my TRUE interest lies in the discussion of UAP and the History of the UFO Phenomena!
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Fri May 02, 2008 6:12 am

The fog is starting to lift !


I can see that. It was a gift, Chorlton. You now have
a positive induced auto-suggestion to strive for. Your
recent posts show a slightly more positive trend in
how you relate to others. If you continue to allow
this to work, you will achieve a much more positive
balance in your perspectives. Your reputation with
others will improve towards what you think it is.

What's to be gained by scoring points against an opponent who doesn't give a hoot?


That is a very good take on how John Lear and Zorgon feel about the folks here.
("Seems that group won the day " = Zorgon)

This game has only two possible outcomes. Everyone wins, or everyone loses.
"Every hand's a winner, .......and every hand's a loser"

The best peer debate I have ever seen on this board is the Lear/Ray L-1011 debate. Awesome !
That is a true peer level debate, well beyond my comprehension level, Chorlton. And
really scary too. Dare I point it out: John and Ray slipped into the comfort of a peer review
discussion where they are involuntarily showing respect for each other. Stomp that fire
out real quick !

I like to save the best for last, AD. As Ray would say, "the clock is ticking..."
and there ain't much time left in the game.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 7:18 am

lost_shaman wrote:If you're soo paranoid that you actually think your "Friends" are actively "trying to make you look like the bad guy", then maybe you're a bit too paranoid! Try reading what has been said WITHOUT attempting to read into some "hidden agenda" that you think is present 'inbetween the lines' and just take what's being said at face value!

Perhaps I’m confusing you with your long standing association with Caleban who seems to think this is some sort of game he needs to orchestrate but it was this statement you made without knowing what the circumstances were that set me off…

lost_shaman wrote:Also considering the past and the individuals involved, including you AD, I seriously think there is a major conflict of interest here. It might just be prudent for you (AD) to refrain from Moderating in certain situations like this one. :)

The implication here is my actions were driven by my known (and unabashed) distaste for Lear and Zorgon more than anything else. Do you still believe that now that you’ve seen the explanations and what has occurred since?

lost_shaman wrote:Everything I said can be taken at face value and if I was NOT a "Friend" I would NOT waste one iota of my precious free time giving a rats' *ss about any of 'this' because my TRUE interest lies in the discussion of UAP and the History of the UFO Phenomena!

Fair enough but then my question to you is what in the hell do Lear and Zorgon have to do with that? You appear to be defending their “right” to post BS and ignore people’s counterarguments… is that what you want? If not then I apologize but you have to understand that from where I sit when both sides of the debate can arguably be interpreted as being guilty of being “uncivil” (I include intellectual dishonesty in that category) as is likely to occur when folks are passionate about their beliefs/positions, the only fair (as near bias free as anyone can hope to be) way for me to resolve the issue is to fall back on what I like to call the Great Equalizer… the Scientific Method.

I realize a lot of folks at ATS have been “trained” to rally behind the guise of “civilty” as the ultimate yardstick but that’s a slippery slope indeed… it does not account for the full range of human emotion as expressed through mere words alone… a feat normally reserved for only the best of writers. See Torbjon’s crowbar FMI… a lot of “clever” ATSers wouldn’t last five seconds IRL in some of the places I’ve been. Why do you think the Internet is so addictive given the lure of the anonymous avatar? Fantasy role-playing indeed… Reality Covered.

caleban wrote:The best peer debate I have ever seen on this board is the Lear/Ray L-1011 debate. Awesome !

Nice, so now you feel the need to insult not just Ray but the entire history of this board… both before you got here and after? Wow. I would suggest you need to do a LOT more reading… starting from the begriming at let us know if you still feel that way. Ray in particular has faced much more worthy opponents than Lear in my opinion. Furthermore, since you appear to be “keeping score”, why no comment on Lear’s “performance” in the breathable atmosphere thread? Who’s being biased here?

Also, need I remind you that you joined this board shortly after sending me an email after I had ceased having any contact with you for the previous 6 months asking me if I could influence Ryan to back off on the “Breaking UFOlogy News!” thread about “Team ATS” and in the same breath casually mentioned the new “six figure” investor…

"The Above Network announced today the completion of first-round equity capitalization. The undisclosed six-figure funding amount was provided by a private investment group attracted by the user-centric ideals of The Above Network and free expression advocacy of AboveTopSecret.com (ATS), the arm of the conglomerate where the expansion effort is targeted."

..and then in the very next email after I responded by asking you if I could quote you on that to Ryan you tried to change the subject to all this “fascinating” Clifford Stone FOIA stuff on ATS that I wasn’t interested in?

caleban wrote:I like to save the best for last, AD. As Ray would say, "the clock is ticking..."

Actually I said that but yeah thanks, Lear controls his own destiny now in this situation…

caleban wrote:and there ain't much time left in the game.

[dong, dong, dong]

"For whom the bell tolls
Time marches on"
Men go and come but Earth abides.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Sat May 03, 2008 7:54 am

AD, I have known you have some kind of deep, historical "beef" with me but I was never able
to "comprehend" what it was (confirmation for Chorlton's glee). The second time I triggered your
sensitivity there, you almost told me what it was. This time you spilled your guts; the "World
according to Garf". I can see the problem from your perspective now. I might even be able to
resolve it in your version of reality.
I will try.

"Spanky and Our Gang" came about with a bit of encouragement from me because I needed
help to collect some data. The process resulted in my "lab-assistants" getting a virtual
penalty that scattered the gang to different places. Since I do acknowledge responsibility
for that, I had a moral "obsession" to restore that group and try to leave them better off than
when our past collaboration shuffled them up. Look around and what do you see?

The gang's all here with a few bonuses. AD, unless you ban yourself, this is a much
better environment for you. You can and have even got John Lear banned, as you once indicated
to me should have been done over there (which is also a fact right now). Although Shawnna had
a difficulty prior to our collaboration, I think that's been pretty well patched up now too. Humor works
wonders. "The best one was the delete button." lost_shaman is as easy going as you find, and can
handle your new dogmatic (JL induced) mod style without batting an eye. He really is a friend,
and friends overlook faults in favor of friendship. Torbjon is an added bonus, and shares the
characteristics of lost_shaman.

I now think our big inter-personal problem really is your belief about the NASA thing. I never said anything
to anyone else until AFTER you started raising the issue in certain mail list conversations. This was also
AFTER you raised the issue with ATS, and even Alan Boyle at MSNBC. I lost track after that as to
who could have let the cat out of the bag. Who knows ? I sure don't.

As to the rest of your comments, WOW. I certainly ain't on the same page there at all. Accusing
you of being a gvt. agent ? Have you altered the original pdf ? I did say I believed you were
who you claimed to be and seriously questioned your motive/obsession for attacking
John Lear. So, what has changed since then, anyway ? Sockpuppets ? Never had the
desire or time to try that. I do believe that every new place needs a new ID and work to
earn a place on the board. From my perspective, trying to cart my ID/Reputation
from place to place is lazy and keeps me from having to earn my new place.

We are in a time-out with only seconds on the clock. Did I leave out anything ?
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 8:11 am

From a "private" U2U you sent to Shawnna...

caleban wrote:What I am indirectly fishing for has to do with the driving force behind his
(my opinion) obsession here. During the course of this JL thread, and some Video STS shuttle
threads, about three folks whom I am almost certain are NASA folks, showed up to discuss these.
Only one identified himself (User JimO) aka Jim Oberg from NASA. They were not exactly treated
well (ATS has long suffered a double standard AGAINST the scientifically skeptical). When this
Post deletion went down, Access Denied was unique in that ALL posts associated with his in
topics he originated were deleted as well. I have only seen something like that once before, and
ONLY one topic was deleted (NansDeMichael was banned, but none of her other posts were
affected.)
I have asked Tom (Access Denied) directly if his driving interest is professional, but he says "not".
Yet the NASA photo he has (He gave me access) is indeed of a slightly higher quality than the JL
stuff, and after a rather extensive search, it ain't out there anywhere else.
His reason for wanting to "correct" the errors of the JL thread do not make sense to me. I mean,
come on, what part of "scanned by Lazar" does he not understand ?

Is that not what you wrote?
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Sat May 03, 2008 8:30 am

Is that not what you wrote?


Sure is. I apologize if you thought that was a violation of trust. I
did not see it that way due to the time-line of events I have already
described above. I do not know the extent of the depth to which
your other conversations about this had gone. You certainly indicated
to me you were talking about it with others prior to this. If I misunderstood
what you were trying to convey to me, slap my hand, I deserve it.

Next....
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat May 03, 2008 11:07 am

Access Denied wrote:Perhaps I’m confusing you with your long standing association with Caleban who seems to think this is some sort of game he needs to orchestrate but it was this statement you made without knowing what the circumstances were that set me off…

lost_shaman wrote:Also considering the past and the individuals involved, including you AD, I seriously think there is a major conflict of interest here. It might just be prudent for you (AD) to refrain from Moderating in certain situations like this one. :)


Uggh... What on Earth makes you think I made any statements without knowing what the circumstances were???

Good Grief Man!!! Let's be honest here... Everytime you got "un-banned" you went straight back to the JL threads and got yourself "banned" again!!!

Hell, I'm mad too in that all MY posts I made on your Threads are all gone too!!! But what do you want me to do?



Access Denied wrote:The implication here is my actions were driven by my known (and unabashed) distaste for Lear and Zorgon more than anything else. Do you still believe that now that you’ve seen the explanations and what has occurred since?


[Brutal Honesty]

Yes. I do believe that 'you' reacted to JL and Zorgon rather than engaged them intellectually. Since you asked me about 'this', I'm going to point out that JL and Zorgon were "Hanging themselves" quite methodically without outside involvement before 'you' "Banned" them as a 'reaction' to the act of "Hanging themselves"!!!




Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Everything I said can be taken at face value and if I was NOT a "Friend" I would NOT waste one iota of my precious free time giving a rats' *ss about any of 'this' because my TRUE interest lies in the discussion of UAP and the History of the UFO Phenomena!

Fair enough but then my question to you is what in the hell do Lear and Zorgon have to do with that?


Glad you asked. JL and Zorgon have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the UFO Phenomena. But as I said above, "Hanging themselves" should not be a reason for "banning" until AFTER the "Suicide" attempt NOT before!

Why should RU give JL and Zorgon the satisfaction of being "banned" in less than 72 nhours?

Agian, once this "devolves" into a "Who's the better NAZI" debate, it's not going to be lost_shaman that suffers, it's going to be 'you' AD that suffers!
[/Brutal Honesty]
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 5:04 pm

LS, I don't appreciate your misrepresentation of the facts...

1. I temporaily post banned Lear and Zorgon so I could get a handle on what was rapidly getting out of hand. I had just gotten home from work to find the board in chaos. Posts needed to be reviewed, off topic posts moved, and public and private warnings given where appropriate. There was also an issue of Zorgon not responding to an email I sent him the day before on April 27 to verify his registration due to a minor discrepancy in the IP address the account was registered from.

2. They were only post banned for 4 hours and your complaint was a contributing factor in restoring their posting privileges as soon as I did. They were both able to post after that and they did.

3. The very next day two of our members who were engaged in a debate with Lear called him on our board rules which I am obligated to enforce. Lear knows exactly what he needs to do in order to have his posting privileges restored. He asked for more time and he got it.

4. Zorgon is not post banned.

Make of that what you will but I will not entertain any further speculation on the matter.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat May 03, 2008 6:28 pm

Access Denied wrote:LS, I don't appreciate your misrepresentation of the facts...


For one thing you asked me what I 'believe'. I told you. I'm sorry that you're not 'getting it'. :?
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