Whats the point?

The ones that didn't get away

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 8:15 pm

Oh but I do understand, all too clearly I might add.

If the purpose of this little exercise was to make me look bad then I’d probably have to say mission accomplished. Do I care? No, I’m more concerned with maintaining the reputation of this board as a place for those who are interested in engaging others in rational discourse on these strange and controversial topics to come and hang out… free from the sort of sophomoric distractions we see elsewhere.

In case you haven’t noticed we are short at least one moderator here since I moved into management. I volunteered to become a moderator here because Steve and Ryan said they needed help and I wanted to support what they are trying to do here. Now I learned the hard way in the military to never volunteer for anything but what can I say, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment.

Contrary to popular belief (?) I don’t enjoy it and if anyone out there thinks it’s easy, unless you’re a sadist, boy are you in for a rude awakening should you ever become one. Some days the only thing that keeps me going is the desire to try and do the “right thing” and help this place reach it’s full potential… against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Now that I’ve moved into management, I would love to be able to spend more time writing and researching and facilitating the continued growth of RU. If anyone out there thinks they’ve got what it takes to do the job then you’re welcome to come here and contribute and demonstrate to us that you uphold the same standards we (try to) hold ourselves to by taking an active role in maintaining the integrity of this board and holding others accountable for their actions so we can concentrate on other areas. At some point I imagine it will become obvious who’s committed to RU (and I mean that literally) and we will offer the position.

Now then back to the fray…
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat May 03, 2008 9:11 pm

Access Denied wrote:3. The very next day two of our members who were engaged in a debate with Lear called him on our board rules which I am obligated to enforce.


If you're going to twist my arm and force me to spell things out AD, fine here goes.

I simply did not want to see a double standard here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that JL and Zorgon probably will not become outstanding RU Members! That being said RU was at risk of NOTHING other than creating the perception of a double standard, I thought at the time that I was seeing evidence of a double standard. I also thought that as these real time events were taking place that this perception of a double standard could have been easily avoided.

Am I wrong, or a bad 'friend', for giving a 'crap' about that?

Caleban, and Shawnna appearently also saw this happening and voiced thier respective opinions, which should have been "eye opening", but instead...
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat May 03, 2008 9:51 pm

Access Denied wrote:Oh but I do understand, all too clearly I might add.

If the purpose of this little exercise was to make me look bad then I’d probably have to say mission accomplished. Do I care? No, I’m more concerned with maintaining the reputation of this board as a place for those who are interested in engaging others in rational discourse on these strange and controversial topics to come and hang out… free from the sort of sophomoric distractions we see elsewhere.


No one IMO wants to make you look bad AD.

Lets be honest here. If it's o.k. for Chorlton and Ray and others to openly call for JL and Zorgon to be 'banned' simply for signing up as Members of RU, is it not then also o.k. for me to voice my opinion that JL and Zorgon shouldn't be 'banned' or even 'post banned' simply because they are in fact JL and Zorgon from ATS?

Remembering RU rule # 1. "Bringing up old fights or arguments with other forum members into this forum will not be tolerated."

And what about this RU rule # 2. "Personal attacks upon other posters are prohibited. While lively discussion is encouraged, all posters are expected to maintain a courteous decorum toward others, even when expressing an opposing viewpoint."


IMO, that is EXACTLY what happened and that is why I called for you to re-instate JL's and Zorgon's accounts ASAP in the first place. NOT because I give a 'crap' about what JL and Zorgon have to say but because I do give a 'crap' about RU!!!

Also, at the time I had no idea that the 'post ban' would only last 4 hours and I only had what was actually posted on RU as a reason for the 'banning' at that time. And again I did think I was seeing evidence of a double standard at that time.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 10:24 pm

lost_shaman wrote:Do you see where I'm coming from?

Yes, I do... thank you. Could I have handled it better? Definitely.

My apologies to the board, I will strive to represent you all better next time...
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zorgon » Sat May 03, 2008 10:31 pm

Access Denied wrote: This disingenuous ploy to discredit RU and apparently the ATS Watch initiative in particular fails on several accounts.


Well there is no 'ploy' on my part... I came here because I had concerns about ATS and came looking for answers... I do have some disturbing incidents to look at, but until I know exactly what happened, why and by whom, I am not ready to just shout it out...

A comment led me here... so if I were to post any relevant info about ATS, it seems to me prudent first to 'check out the turf' like exactly what purpose would my info be used for?

As I say I have concerns, but I am not looking to provide 'the enemy' with ammo if the sole reason is to attack... So far what I have seen here does not fill me with confidence that RU's intentions with ATS watch are 'noble'

None of their arguments are backed up by solid research and I’ve NEVER seen either of them concede or acknowledge a point to ANYONE.


Well those are just outright lies... I do massive amounts of research... as best as possible considering the topics and provide it free... the fact that you disagree with my conclusions or cannot see the evidence is not my fault...

Now IF there was a 'secret space station' for example, and possessing any official classified documents on such a would be an act of treason... how do you propose one can do anything else BUT provide circumstantial evidence?

Yet you skeptics scream for proof... something you darn well IF it exist, I wouldn't be allowed to show anyway.. So your deck is stacked here at RU, because without those classified documents... one would not be able to follow your rules and end up banned

As to conceding... ask ArMaP :P

Zorgon had the dirt to expose what they know about what happened back then or any other time


Well I know nothing about the incident 'back then' other than you did as Lost Shaman pointed out... deliberately seek us out in almost every thread we posted ANYTHING in... Frankly I do not understand such 'devotion'. What brought me here was a more recent incidence of deleted threads for no apparent reason... and the mention of possible 'collaboration' with NASA, which if true... I would think most here at RU would favor...

Unless I am missing something
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zorgon » Sat May 03, 2008 10:37 pm

Access Denied wrote: You appear to be defending their “right” to post BS and ignore people’s counterarguments…


Hmmm well would you please be so kind as to point me out this BS that I posted here? And which people's counterarguments I have ignored?

Seems to me if expressing my side, or my opinion is BS, well that kinda makes it hard to present anything for debate. And what prompted my ban at 72 hours? You said you had to 'sort it out, but I am unclear as what I said that triggered that not only post banned, but account frozen move...
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zep Tepi » Sat May 03, 2008 10:43 pm

I already explained that initial suspension Zorgon, I'll have a look for the thread in question.

Cheers,
Steve

Edit to add:
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1073&p=17692#p17692
.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Zorgon » Sat May 03, 2008 11:16 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:I already explained that initial suspension Zorgon,


Thanks Missed that post :oops:
Last edited by Zorgon on Sun May 04, 2008 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Sun May 04, 2008 2:59 am

There were also some pm's flying back and forth which only served to enhance that confusion.


'Fess-up time. I probably caused the "PM" situation when I asked AD if Zorgon and John Lear had an
IP indicator to show whether they are the real McCoy or somebody out there impersonating them for a joke.
I said as much to Zorgon in open forum as well. Smile Zorgon, you apparently misunderstood my remark in a
similar way as to how the board admin misunderstood it. I also missed that suspension post until Zep Tepi
placed it here. I don't use the icons so you cannot see me blush.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun May 04, 2008 6:15 am

lost_shaman wrote:Lets be honest here. If it's o.k. for Chorlton and Ray and others to openly call for JL and Zorgon to be 'banned' simply for signing up as Members of RU,


Whoops. Now that you have invoked my name, I've got to jump in here. And in doing so I must say this is a clear misrepresentation of the facts, LS. NOWHERE did I say Lear should be banned for simply signing up as an RU member. If my memory is correct, I simply asked Lear to begin by backing up his theory that there is a breathable atmosphere on the moon. Did he? I don't think so, and if you can see it in what he wrote, please show it to me. Moreover, he jumped into a 9-11 thread that Zorgon was making claims (which he could also not back up).

I would be happy to have Lear back IF he was planning to actually back up his claims with scientific, observable, and vettable facts... not run off on some line of mumbo jumbo which does NOT respond to the problems (i.e. counterfactual evidence) of believing there is a breathable atmosphere on the moon. In reality, by citing the thermal, weather, and friction effects of a breathable atmosphere, I was actually pitching softballs at him. I wanted to see if he could even "hit" those softballs and try to provide an explanation why we see no weathering on the moon... he couldn't even do that. Had he even remotely given a plausible explanation, there were more fastballs and curve balls that could be thrown to provide even more counterfactual evidence against his wacky belief.

And this is why I respect RU and remain here. They have a strict NO BS policy for wild claims. Back them up, and if you can't each new post wherein you continue to make such claims as fact are looked upon as spam. That is precisely how I view all such wild and wooly claims on the internet that cannot be backed....it is even worse...it is spam that is untrue!

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun May 04, 2008 7:07 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Lets be honest here. If it's o.k. for Chorlton and Ray and others to openly call for JL and Zorgon to be 'banned' simply for signing up as Members of RU,


Whoops. Now that you have invoked my name, I've got to jump in here. And in doing so I must say this is a clear misrepresentation of the facts, LS.


Fine, I retract that as it involves you, but there was still a clear anamosity in the air created by certain members of this board. Certain rules seem to have been ignored.

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: NOWHERE did I say Lear should be banned for simply signing up as an RU member.


You're right you didn't say that. I didn't mean to imply that you did otherwise I would have quoted you saying such.



You Can Call Me Ray wrote: In reality, by citing the thermal, weather, and friction effects of a breathable atmosphere, I was actually pitching softballs at him. I wanted to see if he could even "hit" those softballs and try to provide an explanation why we see no weathering on the moon... he couldn't even do that.


Great. So, what's the problem then?

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: Had he even remotely given a plausible explanation, there were more fastballs and curve balls that could be thrown to provide even more counterfactual evidence against his wacky belief.


Sounds great so again, what's the problem?


You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And this is why I respect RU and remain here. They have a strict NO BS policy for wild claims. Back them up, and if you can't each new post wherein you continue to make such claims as fact are looked upon as spam. That is precisely how I view all such wild and wooly claims on the internet that cannot be backed....it is even worse...it is spam that is untrue!


Well, how is the lay person going to know what's 'spam' and 'untrue' if you are not willing to throw "fastballs and curve balls"?
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby caleban » Sun May 04, 2008 7:19 am

NOWHERE did I say Lear should be banned for simply signing up as an RU member.


The full, factual interpretation of your statement is correct. The intent is not. That is what
lost_shaman meant.

Ray and others to openly call for JL and Zorgon to be 'banned'...


That is clear and the "intent" of lost_shaman's statement.

The reference is to the generic "ban threat bandwagon" a lot of
you jumped on, not each individual's pet knee-jerk specific.

Yours, Ray?
"My vote is now clearly in for banning you for ignoring the facts I have presented..." = May 01, Ray.

You even treat "toon" better than that. This is just crazy.
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby Access Denied » Sun May 04, 2008 7:32 am

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Re: Whats the point?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun May 04, 2008 7:45 am

Access Denied wrote:Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Einstein


So then is RU an example of Insanity, conidering it is a new forum that expects a different result than we got from older forums?
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Re: Whats the point?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun May 04, 2008 12:01 pm

lost_shaman wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote: In reality, by citing the thermal, weather, and friction effects of a breathable atmosphere, I was actually pitching softballs at him. I wanted to see if he could even "hit" those softballs and try to provide an explanation why we see no weathering on the moon... he couldn't even do that.


Great. So, what's the problem then?

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: Had he even remotely given a plausible explanation, there were more fastballs and curve balls that could be thrown to provide even more counterfactual evidence against his wacky belief.


Sounds great so again, what's the problem?


The problem is that he has ignored counterfactual evidence, and continued to spew his BS theories over, and over, and over, and over, and over again! To which you may come back and say "but he has only been around RU for a week or so" and then I will have to remind you that Lear's reputation for this preceded him. Had Lear been someone who appeared out of nowhere, my tolerance might have been higher. But his antics were well-known. The buck has to stop somewhere and it stops with me in my personal world. I can only say I am glad to have found a group of people who are like me who do not put up with BS ad nauseum when it comes to spreading lies they cannot validate. IOW I am glad the buck stops with RU inasmuch as it reflects my personal belief. So the question then goes back to you: What is your problem with this?


You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And this is why I respect RU and remain here. They have a strict NO BS policy for wild claims. Back them up, and if you can't each new post wherein you continue to make such claims as fact are looked upon as spam. That is precisely how I view all such wild and wooly claims on the internet that cannot be backed....it is even worse...it is spam that is untrue!


Well, how is the lay person going to know what's 'spam' and 'untrue' if you are not willing to throw "fastballs and curve balls"?


To continue the analogy: Why does a pitcher need to use fastballs and curveballs if the hitter whiffs on 3 slow pitches? 3 strikes and you're out, right? If you ask me, other places on the internet have given Lear an endless inning of swinging at a ball on a tee (remember tee-ball)...swinging away, not really hitting anything, and the crowd getting restless. It is refreshing to see that we play by the rules here and the umps are willing to call someone out when they cannot hit the ball (provide evidence).

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