Billy Meier / Michael Horn

The ones that didn't get away

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Billy Meier / Michael Horn

Postby Michael812 » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:06 pm

***Admin notice - This post has been moved from the Project Serpo Forum into here. A wealth of evidence exists that proves beyond any doubt the Meier case to be a hoax. Furthermore, the posting of private information will NOT be tolerated. ***

Hi,

I was referred to your forum by one of your favorite guys, Victor Martinez, who pointed out that I was mentioned (unkindly) in one of the posts above, to which I am responding.

First, let me say that I was banned from the ATS board primarily, I think, because I outted Wayne Jaeschke as the person who was slandering me. Here is my version of the events. Jaeschke started a thread at ATS regarding my appearances on WTOP radio, Washington, D.C.'s largest, most important news station. Reporter David Burd had presented several mini-interviews with me, on or around November 15, 2000, regarding the rather astounding information in the Billy Meier UFO case, for which I am the American (and English language) representative.

Within a short period of time, Jaeschke, in a remarkable display of mental confusion, actually claimed that I had NOT been interviewed on WTOP, and even went so far as to claim that he had confirmed that from direct communication with WTOP and Burd, which, obviously, turned out to not be the case.

When I posted an email from a listener who had actually heard me on the show, Jaeschke (who I only knew at that time as Centrist) accused me of lying about that too. So I called Burd up at WTOP and asked him to send me confirmation that I had indeed appeared on his show (heck, maybe I imagined the whole thing). He said that he had just received an email inquiry about that very question and that he would send me the requested confirmation. What he sent me was actually a copy of his response to the email from Jaeschke:

***Personal Info removed***
Subject: Re: Michael Horn Interview?

I can tell you absolutely that Mr. Horn's interview was played here on WTOP radio. I was the one who initially contacted Mr. Horn to do this interview...not the other way around. Since then, I have recieved more email than I can ever remember about the topic. I hope this answers your question.

Regards, David Burd

Here's the direct lying, slanderous quote from Jaeschke, in the email to which Burd is responding, please notice that it was sent by Jaeschke on the same day that Burd responded (and I happened to call him). And remember that I had already been told by Jaeschke that Burd had said that I wasn't interviewed:

*** Personal Info removed***
David:

I picked up on your story a few months back regarding Billy
Meier and his prophecies. A Mr. Michael Horn has been claiming that you
interviewed him and ran this interview in 4 "1-1/2" minute segments.
Being an avid WTOP listener, I am surprised that I never heard this
interview and cannot locate anything about it on the WTOP website (other
than the original link to the short mention of Billy Meier's and the
link to Mr. Horn's website -- thefly.com).

Please let me know if Mr. Horn is being truthful with regard to
this interview. He has quite a long track record of fabricating
evidence, witnesses, and stories.

And here's a direct quote from Jaeschke (excerpted from his email) threatening me:

*** Personal info removed***
Subject: RE: You got some 'splainin' to do lawyer boy!

"Did you notice what a nice job I did on another hoaxster -- Don Deppeller? Not only found the elusive van that he claims stalked him, but got the driver to swear an affidavit for the Canadian immigrations officials.  Don is now dealing with perjury charges."

Please also note that Jaeschke sent his emails, to both me and Burd, on his Morrison & Foerster email account, and apparently on company time, as was the case with numerous other postings he made to the ATS forum. Gee, an attorney for one of the nation's largest law firms, sitting around on company time, posting under an alias on an internet UFO forum and sending slanderous emails to WTOP radio. So, is this part of his duties for the law firm, or was he moonlighting on company time? Perhaps his "sad" recent absence from involvement on the ATS forums just might have something to do with my outting him for this potentially very troublesome behavior. Just guessing.

As for Springer's prasie for Jaeschke's "...exposing Michael Horn's "Billy Miers"(spelling) drek was great stuff.", may I suggest that all he did was discredit himself both ethically and competence wise.

One of the other champion debunkers at ATS, professional model maker and photographer Jeff Ritzmann, blustered long and hard about how Meier's famous Wedding Cake (WC) UFO photos were hoaxed with models, which he, Ritzmann, claimed that he could duplicate/debunk. After sufficient goading from me (I really worked hard on that one), he finally posted a photo of his four-month effort, and a sad effort it was. Of course, Ritzmann offered all sorts of excuses, not enough time, couldn't find the parts (which he had boastfully identified as cake pans (or garbage can lids, take your pick), carpet tacks, metal bracelets, etc.

The funny thing was that Meier never offered excuses, just photos, films, a stunning video of the WC UFO, sound recordings, metal alloy samples, etc. - but no excuses. Ritzmann did more to quiet down the skeptical noise coming my way than, well, than I did on my own. I circulated his picture quite widely, and especially to those folks who blathered on about "Meier's hoaxed Wedding Cake UFO photos" and, with the notable exception of one particularly inept fellow, it seems like it has had a very sobering effect. As a matter of fact, my secret recipe includes not only Ritzmann's refugee from a Betty Crocker cake ad but links like these:

tjresearch.info/Wedcake.htm

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb357776.htm

Assuming that my post here will actually make it onto the board, and not be removed when folks find out that I'm the dreaded Michael Horn, junior giant slayer, I'd like to add a couple of other thoughts. There is no doubt in my mind that those people invested in attacking and trying to destroy the Meier case have, either deliberately or unconsciously, a deep desire to keep their fellow humans in the dark about the most profound information pertaining to our future survival. The focus on "UFOs" and "ETs", and every wacky conspiracy theory and claim that no one ever substantiates, is what passes for entertainment for the - alternately inclined. Apart from the information I brought regarding/in the Meier case, is there anything else on ATS that - verifiably - really adds to our understanding of the great mysteries of human life in the universe?

There is no shortage of armchair experts, debunkers and clowns who see the whole thing as merely a place to exercise their imaginations and, as is now at epidemic proportions societally, avoid the unpleasant realities now upon us...and which the Meier contacts have, for the past 55 years, tried to help us avoid.

As it says at http://gaiaguys.net/MEIER.PROPHECIES.1958.htm:

127.) And in the Third Millennium the time comes when big parts of the continents disappear and the people will have to flee to the mountains, yet their sense of the catastrophes will only be of short duration, because they will forget everything again quickly and therefore make an effort to do much rebuilding, because they are already creating phantasmagoria, through movies and television, as well as later through a worldwide netting of computers and electronics, through which they deceive themselves and see things that do not exist, and are only visually determined for the eye, subsequently their sense for reality disappears and they can no longer distinguish between reality and fiction, whereby they lose themselves more and more in the labyrinth of life, while those who produce phantasms commercially as well as religious and sectarian phantasms, have an easy game with the people of faith, who they deceive in every possible manner and make them into humble beings, like cringing dogs.

And this is in the same document - from 1958 - where Meier foretold the following:

6.) Sectarianism will bear bad fruit and will cost many lives through murder and suicide as, also through politics and power lust, in diverse countries, hundreds of thousands of people will be murdered as in the Soviet Union which will be dissolved no later than 1991, and in East Germany which will, however, only exist until the late 80's of this century, thereafter Germany will be reunified, whereby, in contrast, in Iraq a war will be led through the United States of America, through their country's president, however this will be without success, for which reason one of his sons, who will likewise be the U.S.A's head of power, will, in the third millennium, unleash a second war in Iraq which will ultimately lead to an unbelievable disaster and to torturing as well as to mass murder through U.S. armed forces and the rebellious.

So let Springer, and all the nice people who want to play at being serious investigators, "experts", etc. go on and attack the Meier case, and create their own legacy as being among those who attempted to destroy the efforts of truth tellers and genuine prophets like Meier. Let them squander their opportunity to serve humankind instead of their egos and continue to feed the entertainment mill.

For those who want to learn about the only scientifically proven, still ongoing UFO contact case, with six categories of still irreproducible evidence, and volumes of prophetically accurate scientific and world event related information, please visit my site.
Michael812
 


Re: Billy Meier / Michael Horn

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:25 am

Michael812 wrote:***Admin notice - This post has been moved from the Project Serpo Forum into here. A wealth of evidence exists that proves beyond any doubt the Meier case to be a hoax. Furthermore, the posting of private information will NOT be tolerated. ***

Hi,

I was referred to your forum by one of your favorite guys, Victor Martinez, who pointed out that I was mentioned (unkindly) in one of the posts above, to which I am responding.

First, let me say that I was banned from the ATS board primarily, I think, because I outted Wayne Jaeschke as the person who was slandering me.


Wrong. You were banned for the posting of personal information. The details are here

For anyone wanting the FULL story to what actually transpired, this thread at ATS will provide all of the information they need:
Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus?!?!

Cheers,
Zep
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:45 am

Michael,

How can it be established that this document was actually produced in 1958 rather than say- 1998?

Best,

LK Walker
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
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Postby Springer » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:48 am

Michael:

I have four words for you sir:

Get a Real Job. Please man NOBODY buys the Meier case, you attached your horse to a trash wagon, it's a PROVEN HOAX, JRitzmann's models look BETTER than Meiers!

Please... enough already... keep it on yahoo chat, boards like this one and ATS are for GENUINE mysteries/intrigue...

Springer...
Never argue with an idiot. He'll only take you DOWN to his level and beat you with experience!
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Postby Michael812 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:59 am

I really and truly want to thank the folks here who put my post in this section. It is, frankly, more familiar to be surrounded by blatantly hostile, though thoroughly uniformed, people, and it serves as a good contrast for any genuine truth seekers, as opposed to the already prejudiced and opinionated.

But do try, even just a little to offer some credible, factual substantiation for your claims, and I don't mean just so that I can argue with you. Rather, it is not infrequently that people who are still objective regarding the Meier case come across some of my interactions with the "skeptics" and end up thinking that it's some kind of a set up. You know, they see that I post, and liberally refer to, deep documentation and them the skeptics post those silly "wealth of evidence exists that it's a hoax" things that, for some funny reasons, never contain even a small fraction of the substantiation that I've provided for the case. And the result is that I'm the one who gets accused of a hoax! You know, that I set it up to look good.

Now, maybe by being in already proven hostile territory will diminish some of those perceptions but probably only to the degree that we can get the, er, experts here to put up a good show, a factually based one at that. I should add that it was just a tad dismaying that such sensitivity to my posting Wayne's info wasn't in the least applied to the outrage of his lies against me, both on the forum and off. But I'm a good sport about those things and I'm sure that working in the mail room of a big prestigious law firm can be a rewarding experience, as one earns the right to climb back up that shaky ladder of success, so to speak.

More than likely, Wayne holds a special place of thanks in his dear little heart for me, since I kinda - and truthfully inadvertently - was the source of his liberation. Let's face it, when you're a lawyer with a powerful law firm and you can't use your real name to go after your "opponents", heck, when you can't tell anybody that it's really you out there trying to kick butt (even if it's yours that gets kicked), well, it's probably NOT what you spent all that money in law school for!

Oh yeah, almost forgot, when (at the recent IUFOC) Christian Frehner presented some of the photos from the other people who've recently photographed the Plejaren craft, and when Wendelle Stevens gave the stunning details about the CIA surveillance of Meier and the case (and the name of the operative in London who oversaw the effort), well, let's just say that as more and more info comes out - from very credible sources - the poor debunkers, who've never even laid a foot on that nice gravel road up to Meier's place, look sillier and sillier.

But I digress, let's just say that I do hope that, even if you need to bring in some new mudslingers, a more credible opposition to the Meier case will be mounted, making it a bit more interesting for y'all, as well as your visitors here.

Oh yeah, here's a clue about the 1958 letter, as well as the Henoch Prophecies, keep your eye on events as they unfold and see if they were accurately foretold. Hopefully many will NOT occur, so that my "I told you so's" will not be necessary.

As for Ritzmann's Wedding Cake UFO model looking "better than Meier's", you're truly a great kidder and I must assume the life of any party, even without a few brewskies under your photon belt! As a matter of fact, since I'm in admittedly unfriendly territory, would you do me the small favor of trying to REALLY hammer that one home? You know, post Jeffie's cake pan model and then Meier's pics and tell your members, "see, his is really better, huh, isn't it?"

Well, enough thanks from me for now. I know you guys have a big bunch of work to do, you've got to back up all those debunking claims, etc. But hey, don't be a stranger, let's see all that stuff asap and I'll feel like it's at least a fair fight. I hate feeling like a bully.
Michael812
 

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:40 am

Michael812 wrote:Oh yeah, here's a clue about the 1958 letter, as well as the Henoch Prophecies, keep your eye on events as they unfold and see if they were accurately foretold. Hopefully many will NOT occur, so that my "I told you so's" will not be necessary.


I'm glad you're here Michael, really I am.
You see, on the thread at ATS - the thread I linked to above and posted here again as a reference Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus!?!? - I asked you a number of questions. I also made a prediction that you wouldn't answer. Several pages later, another member copied my entire post and asked you again, with the same result.

If you want to continue posting here that's fine by me - but with one caveat: I want the points raised in that post answering. The post is here, and reproduced below for your convenience.

Originally posted by Zep Tepi
Hi all. This is my first post here, though I registered a while back. I must say, this thread is entertaining...

Originally posted by TerraX
As Cowboy pointed out, something can be said about Meier's prophecies. In the link he provided the 'Henoch Prophecies' by Meier can be read. Here's a relevant excerpt of that article;
( http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/H ... ecies.html )

SNIP
This will be at the time that tremendous natural disasters will hit Italy and its people, causing severe hardship. But this will also be at the time when Vesuvius could become active again and could spread tremendous havoc.
France will not only be invaded by the aggressors from the outside, but will also be conquered from within as a result of collaborative forces and other forces. This can be envisioned as being the many foreigners of a different religion living in France at that time, and specifically Islam, which will be this force working from within. Once France has fallen, a war to conquer Spain and England will take place. Subsequently, an alliance with the forces of the aggressors will be formed, which will invade Scandinavia."
(Emphasis mine)

I know this has been brought up many times already Mr. Horn, but please enlighten me as to why the above excerpt justifies the following headline on your website:

"NOVEMBER 23, 1981: MEIER SPECIFICALLY WARNED OF FRENCH RIOTS"
( http://www.theyfly.com/newsletter/nov05/nov05.htm )

The above link gives another quote, specifically
Italy and France will be shaken, due to revolutionaries, who murderously and by arson destroy every order: Paris will be destroyed from within and burnt down. The inhabitants themselves are those, who lay Paris into rubble and ashes via murder, arson and revolution...
(Emphasis mine)

Again, how the hell do those two quotes justify YOU saying Billy Meier "accurately predicted" the Paris riots that began on 27th October 2005 and lasted for twenty days? Please enlighten me as to how 8,973 vehicles torched, 2,888 arrests and 126 police injured equates to Paris being destroyed and France falling??

Quite simply, you are WRONG. You come across as being reasonably intelligent so I would have to surmise that you know you are wrong but there are many other people out there who will believe you anyway, if you are insistent enough. If it helps selling the DVD's who cares, right?

SNIP
"At the same time, as a civil war rages in Germany, an enormously bloody revolution will break out in England which will claim more lives than will be claimed by the civil war in Germany. And because England and Ireland have been at war for a long time already, due to the IRA and the police and military forces of England, the result will be (because this feud will continue up to that time) that this revolution will spread out to all of Ireland, especially affecting Northern Ireland. Many lives will be lost during a civil war in Wales, where differences between various parties will arise before the Third World War. Welsh and English forces will clash especially near Cymru, and claim many lives and cause great destruction."

Breathtaking in its inaccuracy. For one thing, England and Ireland haven't been at war for a very long time. At least not since the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 which established the Irish Free State and secondly, haven't you heard the latest news regarding the IRA? I'm guessing you have not.

Further, It would be pretty difficult for Welsh and English forces to clash, seeing as they are both part of the same army. It may have been possible a few hundred years ago, you know when everything was seperate. There's now a place called The United Kingdom, you may have heard of it...

So, what are we to make of the rest of the so-called predictions? You guessed it.

Judging by most other posts in this thread, I wont be holding my breath awaiting a relevant response from you.

Have a nice day. No, really.


So, would you care to enlighten us?
I would apologise for the tone of the post, but I believe in fighting like with like :)

Cheers,
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Postby Almeirhria » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:21 am

From what I have read Nostrodamus predicted the riots of France, as well as a few other things for both Italy and France soon to come; of course that is if one concludes the aurthor's readings and the quatrains are both correct and authentic.

Just out of curiosity - since Meier is in this hoaxes section will there be further information/evidence to debunk the issue?
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Postby Caranthir » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:52 pm

I'd like to see "...wealth of evidence..." that allegedly supports claims that the Billy Meier case is a "proven hoax".

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Postby Michael812 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:43 pm

Hi Zep,

If I understand correctly you would like me to answer why I think Meier's Paris riots info was accurate, "Please enlighten me as to how 8,973 vehicles torched, 2,888 arrests and 126 police injured equates to Paris being destroyed and France falling?" and the question re "England and Ireland have been at war for a long time already, due to the IRA and the police and military forces of England" as being " Breathtaking in its inaccuracy. For one thing, England and Ireland haven't been at war for a very long time. At least not since the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 which established the Irish Free State and secondly, haven't you heard the latest news regarding the IRA? I'm guessing you have not."

Thanks for the opportunity to go into this in more detail. First, in the Meier case it has long been emphasized that there is a difference regarding prophecies and predictions. Here's my understanding of that distinction. Prophecies are events that are likely to occur if people do not make proper, positive "course corrections" in their thinking and actions in time to alter the probable outcomes. Altering the otherwise probable, negative outcome doesn't mean trying to simply stop a specific event but correcting the erroneous thoughts and actions that contribute to, and perpetuate, that outcome.

Predictions are said to be events that are set in stone, that must and will occur and cannot be altered. These could be understood as certain cosmic or natural events, or prophesied events that have passed the point of no return.

In the case of both prophecies and predictions, the laws of cause and effect are at play, as is the case in all things in the universe. In other words, what the Meier case information is really saying, is that many of the foretold negative events, such as are found in the Henoch Prophecies - not Predictions but Prophecies - are the result of humanity's own erroneous thoughts and actions. Now, since we've said that prophecies can be changed, up to a certain point, and we are also told that it is highly desirable for us to attend to making the necessary, positive course corrections, it shouldn't be completely surprising if certain prophecies either are not fulfilled, or are diminished in their negative impact. As a matter of fact, this is obviously desirable and actually may validate the efforts and intentions of those who issue, or provide, the prophetic information.

Now it can also be said that people may not even know about a certain prophecy but nonetheless change it for the better simply because, for whatever reasons, and however they came into a more positive awareness, through their actions the change was made. As an example that the alleged extraterrestrial Plejaren used, they had long prophesied (in this case maybe predicted) the fall of the Berlin Wall. But they told Meier that their own projections/calculations had foreseen the event taking place LATER than it actually did. This, they said, was due to the increased thoughts and actions of the people who brought the event about. Two other examples that they cited, where the foretold events didn't happen at the time that they had foreseen, were the deaths of Ronald Reagan and of the last Pope, both, I recall reading, had lived longer than they had foreseen.

Another thing to keep in mind regarding the subject is that certain prophecies and predictions are deliberately given out of chronological sequence. The reason for this goes back to the idea that people would, understandably, try to stop certain unpleasant events from occurring if they were informed about them in advance. While this is, as I said, understandable, it would actually only compound the negative event and outcome. We return to the laws of cause and effect, with which we were all familiarized sometime during our education, i.e. the old pendulum explanation, or if not in school, by a sudden awareness that - doing THIS, led to THAT happening. Let's note that we have all sorts of "prophets" in our world, i.e. weather men, scientists, astronomers, engineers, sports and financial analysts, etc. who operate with varying degrees of accuracy.

What they do is take known and available information and "crunch" it, make projections based on certain proven patterns, scientific principles, perceived trends, etc. This is, in a sense, the same process behind the prophecies and predictions provided to, and published by, Meier and perhaps other accurate parties. While what I've said here shouldn't provoke too much disagreement, i.e. about a simplified understanding of cause and effect, there may be more difficulty in accepting the idea that there really are, and have been, more advanced people, both technologically and spiritually, than ourselves. IF what is said in the Meier case about these people is true, IF they really exist and have been the source of certain information to Meier, then not only would their technology be far in advance of anything we currently have (and what some people could even imagine) but the WAY in which they approach or interact with us just MIGHT be, in some cases, for reasons we cannot quite grasp and/or conceive, executed from a level of greater intelligence and understanding than most of us possess. In other words, perish the thought, but they just might be smarter than we are.

Note that I didn't say perfect, there's plenty of evidence in the Meier case that neither they nor Meier are perfect, free from making mistakes (by any means), etc. just like all human beings, at all levels of development are subject to mistakes and errors in the process of growth and evolution. But just because someone does make mistakes doesn't automatically rule them out as being smarter, or wiser, overall than someone else, as should be obvious even in everyday life.

Now let me throw something in here that will surely and understandably cause some concern for many people. Certain prophecies in this case are said to be extremely ancient, dating back many thousands of years. The Henoch (or as we knew his name, Enoch) Prophecies are among them - as are two more sets of so-called ancient prophecies due to be released in a short time. This has absolutely nothing to do with religion - except that religions were formed that utilized, usurped, absorbed, modified, altered, redacted, destroyed, etc. certain prophecies in the course of their formation. These deliberate manipulations of the prophecies were designed to control people, often through fear, etc. Certain teachings were removed from the religions (primarily Judeo-Christianity). This opens the next question, i.e. removed from what in the religions, just the prophetic information? No, from the spiritual teachings that long preceded our religions, according to the information in the Meier case. We can get back to that later.

Now let's look at the information, published by Meier, in 1981 and 1987, regarding France, and let me add that in both sources from which this information was taken, there are additional prophecies that can and should also be considered, at one's own convenience. But one that appears in both versions, that seemed preposterous to me at the time, has recently popped back into my mind, i.e. that "...two terrible civil wars will break out in America, whereby one will follow the other. Afterwards, the United States of America will break apart and deadly hostility will prevail among her, which then leads to the division into five different territories; and it cannot be prevented that sectarian fanatics will play a dictatorial role." (Note that line about sectarian fanatics.) Now, am I the only one who sees the polarization, problems with illegal immigration, religious fanaticism, etc. as conceivably evolving into such a scenario?

So, considering all that's been said about prophecies, the laws of cause and effect, the role that we can (and must) play in mitigating certain events, the alterability of the outcomes and the lack of chronological sequence, wouldn't we say that there was indeed remarkable accuracy in Meier pinpointing the location, nature, religion of the participants, etc. of the Paris event? As quoted by you, "8,973 vehicles torched, 2,888 arrests and 126 police injured" is certainly no small matter. We could, in all honesty also ask ourselves if any of US foretold this, 24 years before it occurred.

But let's also acknowledge the fact that Paris wasn't burned down, thankfully. Nonetheless, and hopefully inaccurately, we can't leave out the word "yet"...quite yet. But maybe we can, maybe the events were enough of a wake up call for the French to really avoid that outcome, which is of course the INTENDED PURPOSE of the prophecies! And no, they don't have to have read them to get that wake up call. It may be far more important that WE read them, so that we can do some thinking and look at the totality of these prophecies, these warnings, and begin to SERIOUSLY take responsibility for our thoughts and actions, seeing as how the projected outcome for not doing so is truly horrific beyond belief for us, right here in the U.S. - as is clearly spelled out in the prophecies.

Another example that I refer to is found in Meier's 251st Contact, from February 3, 1995. "Likewise, the same holds true for nuclear and biologic weaponry. The danger of accidents in nuclear reactors will increase throughout the world. Regarding this subject, France in particular must be extraordinarily careful in every way, for one prophecy warns of a strong probability for an accident near Lyon, which can be prevented as long as the responsible individuals undertake the right steps --- a prophecy can be changed." I pointed out that on August 12, 2003, during the severe heat wave of that summer, an accident at that very smae, exact plant (one of 436 on the planet!) was averted because SOMEONE CAUGHT THE PROBLEM IN TIME, as Meier specifically indicated could happen. And note that he also said, "a prophecy can be changed."

Now I should also refer to the many specific events that Meier predicted in his 115th Contact of October 19, 1978 (see: http://www.theyfly.com/prophecies/prophecies.htm) and the fact that this document was in the possession of the lead investigator, Lt. Col. Wendelle Stevens (USAF, Ret.), long before most of them occurred and before the crucial findings regarding Jupiter's moon, Io, was announced as being the most volcanically active body in the solar system and the most important discovery of the Voyager mission. Even the best efforts of a Ike42, a diligent skeptic (commendable that he actually troubled himself to do the necessary research), failed to show that Meier actually had access to the NASA information, let alone in time to hoax his information, and, since the other 10 predictions
are also in that document, the probability of a hoax is beyond non-existent (okay, a little hyperbole). (See: http://www.theyfly.com/newsletter/jan06 ... m#skeptics)

But let's also acknowledge that certain prophecies may not occur (remember our role in effecting that) and certain other ones may not YET have occurred, which brings me to the second question above. Of course, the first thing that occurs to me is that England and the IRA had a truce somewhere around 1975, which is, let's remember, well AFTER the Henoch Prophecies were supposedly written.

Now, THINK about this for a minute. Why, if a guy was hoaxing prophetic information to presumably make himself look good, would he include that information regarding England and the IRA, if it was so "obviously" wrong? If it IS wrong, then posting it because it was part of the HP is a sign of honesty and integrity. And if it isn't wrong, if FUTURE circumstances should validate it, then we will have that to consider.

Contrary to what many people may have thought, this isn't actually about Billy Meier, the person, or the alleged Plejaren extraterrestrials, or about any "perfect" beings. It's about us and, as I think I may hinted before, our future survival. Let me add another thing that some of you may be aware of. Prof. James Deardorff (www.tjresearch.info) has come out with the theory of "plausible deniability" regarding certain aspects of the Meier case, meaning that some deliberate disinformation, in certain aspects of the case (I don't think it applies to the prophecies and predictions but to otehr information and some photos), was inserted to allow an "escape hatch" for people who have serious difficulties with the otherwise inescapable reality of the case. Before you dismiss it out of hand, remember, IF these people exist, IF they can travel through space (and possibly time), IF, IF...then they have to be a heck of a lot smarter than we are, at least in certain respects...hopefully.

They have often stated that one reason they don't just appear in the skies, land on the White House lawn, etc. is because it would violate our own collective free will. They KNOW that millions, perhaps billions, of people would have a psychotic reaction to their reality paradigm being forcefully crushed, resulting in panic, suicides, murders, attacks on them, veneration as gods (again), etc., in other words, some...bad karma, to put it mildly. So if this is actually a "mission" of service to humanity, one that, in this incarnation, has slowly and patiently evolved over nearly 65 years, we might appreciate that, despite the idea that we think we're "ready" for direct contact, etc., those who are looking at this from their perspective may not think so. And, as we should well appreciate, they can and do play the game according to THEIR rules.

Now here's the depressing note in all of this is that, as far as the Plejaren are concerned, we human beings of Earth have demonstrated that we DON'T learn from the prophecies...digest that for a moment. We ridicule, nitpick beyond reason, ignore and attempt to exalt our own egos, opinions and ill thought out theories - especially when the conduit of the information is just a "simple, one-armed Swiss farmer". In light of all this, I have defined my own personal mission as "helping to prove the prophecies wrong." Not ridicule, ignore or dismiss them - prove them wrong by helping to spread awareness about them.

As I said before, this isn't about Billy Meier, nor about starting a cult, creating a following, making money, or even about - insulting people. My self-appointed "job" is to inform, stimulate thinking and hopefully contribute to an awakening that leads to positive actions, suggestions for which are easily accessible in the Meier material, as well as from other concerned, informed and well-principled parties who may have never heard a thing about this case.

One thing that I (and hopefully you) dread is MISSING THE OPPORTUNITY when it has been provided to us, the opportunity to redirect our country, and our world, from a long foreseen, dead end course primarily steered by power hungry "leaders" and abysmally delusional, bloodthirsty religions. Since it is said to have been the forefathers of these Plejaren who were, in many cases, the very "gods" of these destructive religions, whose misdirection negatively affects us to this day, perhaps we can not only appreciate the sincere and positive motive behind the prophecies (and the other information in the case) but actually UTILIZE it to effect the very changes that will serve and benefit us, and help to also fulfill the Plejaren mission in the process.
Michael812
 

Postby Michael812 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:45 pm

Before any further replies to the two posts following mine will be provided, a direct, intelligent, reasoned, specific response to my post is required. Regarding the bogus challenge from IIG, I will add that I never said that I had the metal alloys but THEY DID say that they could duplicate Meier's photos and films (there are already established parameters for the authentication of Meier's photos). They couldn't, and they didn't, and James Randi RETRACTED his claim that the case is a hoax.

From this point on, those who wish to debate the nuts oand bolts of the physical evidence can do so amongst themselves. For those who have eyes to see, ears to hear - and minds with which to reason...we will move on and I will have a part 2 to my post later.
Michael812
 

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:56 pm

Caranthir wrote:I'd like to see "...wealth of evidence..." that allegedly supports claims that the Billy Meier case is a "proven hoax".

C


while it's difficult to prove that it's a hoax, why not go in the other direction and prove that it's true?

one word: provenance.

produce it. that's all that's required to establish billy meiers as 'the new nostradamus.'

show me the original 1958 letter. prove to me that the henoch prophecies predated the events predicted therein. if 911 was predicted in henoch why wasn't it posted on the figu site or the theyfly site prior to the event? both sites existed back then. michael, we would have loved a warning for crissakes.

so while i don't necessarily agree that the meiers case is a proven hoax (exceedingly difficult to prove a negative), i have yet to see proof of its truth (which should be easy for michael horn to do if it is in fact true.)

in the mean time, as i am wont to say, enjoy the food fight.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:18 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:while it's difficult to prove that it's a hoax, why not go in the other direction and prove that it's true?

one word: provenance.

produce it. that's all that's required to establish billy meiers as 'the new nostradamus.'


IIG Challenge to Michael Horn

In conclusion, the only evidence that Michael Horn claims to have that would be applicable to the IIG Paranormal Challenge is the metal alloy. No other claims can be suitably tested and any other tests performed would be inconclusive at best. Regarding the photos, films, videos, audio recordings, and prophecies the Center for Inquiry-West/Independent Investigations Group and Michael Horn/Billy Meier will have to agree to disagree. However, we are very interested in arranging an examination of the metal alloy by an independent third party. If Mr. Horn were to contact us for an official application for the IIG Paranormal Challenge and arrange for the testing of the metal alloy we could bring this discussion to a close.


I would think Mr. Horn, in light of your confidence of the ability of the evidence to stand up against any skeptical analysis, that you wouldn't hesitate to accept such a challenge?

-Ry
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Postby sandman » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:56 pm

What about the Photographed magazine pictures of dinosaurs Mr Horn?
He went back in time and took that picture yet the exact picture was in a older magazine?

Care to answer about this?
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:11 am

Let's stop playing games Mr. Horn. The crux of the matter, which you so elegantly tried to sidestep with your own definition of my question, is this:

I know this has been brought up many times already Mr. Horn, but please enlighten me as to why the above excerpt justifies the following headline on your website:

"NOVEMBER 23, 1981: MEIER SPECIFICALLY WARNED OF FRENCH RIOTS"
( http://www.theyfly.com/newsletter/nov05/nov05.htm )


That's a very specific statement and I would like your justification for it. In my post at ATS, I quoted from the above article:

Italy and France will be shaken, due to revolutionaries, who murderously and by arson destroy every order: Paris will be destroyed from within and burnt down. The inhabitants themselves are those, who lay Paris into rubble and ashes via murder, arson and revolution...


Anyone clicking on the above link will note it is no longer there. The new link is available here.

You made a very specific claim, I would appreciate an answer that actually addresses this. We can save the rest for later.

Cheers,
Zep
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:15 am

sandman wrote:What about the Photographed magazine pictures of dinosaurs Mr Horn?
He went back in time and took that picture yet the exact picture was in a older magazine?

Care to answer about this?


Good question Sandman, you can also throw in the photographs taken directly from the TV ;)

Cheers,
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