Gordon Novel's RAM

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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby ryguy » Tue May 18, 2010 3:06 pm

Damn AD...that post really made me smile. That was a real pleasure to read - nice work with the digging on Brad...what a b.s. artist.
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby Bobbox1980 » Tue May 18, 2010 7:45 pm

I had read that the Belgium Incident was considered by some to just be false radar echoes but that the Belgium Air Force stood by their radar equipment. I did not hear about the negative altitude radar returns.

For the record I have heard of ITAR. It is one of the things killing our domestic commercial space programs since everyone else around the world that would work in America with Americans has to be cleared.

“Why is it ridiculous to think the CIA would want and might have a variety of ways to covertly murder someone when we know they already admitted to having one way, the heart attack weapon?”


Because the CIA is charged with collecting intelligence about foreign governments, corporations, and individuals and has no law enforcement powers or security functions inside the Untied States.


I still think the CIA's possession of a heart attack weapon demonstrates their desire to be able to murder people without it looking like murder. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I also still think they would want and may have additional means besides that one method. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point also. Lastly, while the CIA is not supposed to act within the U.S., that has not stopped them in the past. The NSA wasn't stopped from spying on all American communications either even though legally they weren't (at least before Congress passed that law) allowed to.

People who leak classified information aren’t simply ignored for “fear” of confirming the leak as naïve conspiracy theorists would like you to believe… they’re prosecuted to the full extent of law, up to and including death depending on the circumstances. If they weren’t, there would no incentive for anyone to keep a secret.


That was another thing that made me very suspicious of Hal Puthoff, Gordon Novel claimed in his book that Puthoff let him read a classified paper he wrote. I got the feeling it was disinformation, either to fool Novel or for Novel to fool his audience or both.


You have presented some very damning evidence against Brad Sorenson. I had looked up his name in the US patent office before and found about 20 entries I think, nothing close to the number listed on those other pages you linked to. It seems plausible to me that he could have conceivably worked on projects but did not hold the patents themselves but that patents were able to be filed for the products and were granted. I was not able to find any real claims other than the one I linked to that he was a liar until now. It looks like you guys did more digging into his background than I did. For arguments sake I don't suppose you asked Sorenson for any and all records relating to say the Mazda RX-7 he claims to have worked on? Maybe he did some 1099 contract work on it's design or something. McCandlish claimed to know Sorenson from school, perhaps it was at the Art Center College of Design.


Bobbox1980 wrote:I didn't think it was necessary to bring up my knowledge on Biefeld Brown. If you read McCandlish's interview carefully you will realize that the story Sorenson told McCandlish did not include Biefeld Brown. Biefeld Brown was McCandlish's interpretation as to how the ARV worked based on Sorenson's story.


Sorry but that’s no excuse for not pointing out you already knew his “interpretation” was bunk… seems more than a little disingenuous to me.


I didn't realize I had to post an essay on all my thoughts regarding the ARV. Truth is I never completely wrote Biefeld Brown off. If you look here you can see I wrote a post on the door not being fully closed on Biefeld Brown:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2287540

When I ran across EHT I considered it the more likely explanation for how the ARV truly flew but I did run across a few anomalous results in some studies on the subject of Biefeld Brown so I still haven't completely written it off. EHT could at least theoretically explain how the ARV was propelled where with Biefield Brown there was never a theory at all. For the most part any scientific explanations for how the ARV worked seemed irrelevant to me in a cursory discussion of the ARV since in reading the interview it did not appear that Sorenson gave any explanations for how the craft flew. If you want to call that disingenuous then so be it. Am I to be lumped in with Scammers Inc next?

It’s not just my opinion and it sure does. Show me one credible scientist who doesn’t think it’s laughable.
Show me a scientist you consider credible who can build a FTL craft and I will take this comment seriously.

I am a trekkie myself (not TOS though) but most UFO sightings involved circular discs. If high speed rotation is necessary circular discs make sense.


The AIAA is a highly accredited organization composed of engineers from all the major aeronautic and aerospace companies. They give college grants to prospective engineers in those fields. I would hardly say anything goes in their Nuclear and Future Flight Propulsion group.


Do you know who accepted their paper for presentation at the conference and why? I do.


I believe the head of the group said he thought the theory seemed fairly well fleshed out, if you have anything else I would like to know. I do want to know the truth though admittedly I prefer to seek it out rather than have it spoonfed to me. The main reason I use the net for my news rather than TV is precisely to avoid being spoonfed.

Why the need to go FTL anyway?
Without it I can kiss the idea of visiting new worlds in my lifetime goodbye.

The status quo does not have an answer.

Nor does the fringe… the first problem is you need an infinite amount of energy to reach the speed of light, never mind going any faster, and not to mention all the paradoxes and causality violations backwards time travel would create.


You assume that our modern version of physics is correct and this is the only way to travel. You do not know for certain that is correct. Considering how many times humankind's accepted version of physics has been wrong I would say it is arrogant to think we now have it right.

Extended Heim Theory is absolutely not pseudoscience. That is a completely baseless accusation.

Prove it. I called for papers published in reputable journals, where are they?

And I called for conducting the experiment that they proposed, looks like neither of us are gonna get what we want. Though I would argue my request if fulfilled would do a lot more to prove one way or another than publication in a reputable journal. If you read some of the articles on EHT where conventional physicists are asked to evaluate the theory they can't make heads or tails of it because it is too different from what they have studied. If no one who would peer review the papers will invest the time to do the math then it won't appear in a reputable journal.


Pulsed resistive coils can be built for far less than static resistive coils and achieve the same field strengths if only for tiny fractions of a second. That is all I was calling for the ufology community to do.


If one is familiar with the idea of the alcubierre warp drive…

It appears you’re the one who isn’t familiar with the Alcubierre drive. If you were, you would know there are numerous problems that none of your speculation even begins to address and make it most likely impossible…Coule has argued that schemes such as the one proposed by Alcubierre are not feasible because the matter to be placed on the road beforehand has to be placed at superluminal speed.

This was why I was arguing for combining EHT and the alcubierre warp drive. Those proposing the alcubierre warp drive do not have a method for generating the negative energy density particles that are needed for the drive either because there is no negative energy density matter in conventionally accepted physics.

In EHT if it is correct, one can generate the positive energy density particles to create the contraction in spacetime at the front of the craft that Coule assumes would need to be placed there at superluminal speed by another craft. If Coule was familiar with EHT he would likely recognize this as a possibility.

You don’t seem to understand (or maybe you do now considering your most recent posts) that you’re wasting your time trying to “verify” things that haven’t been proven to exist in the first place… it’s all based on hearsay and conjecture.


Hypotheses are just that until they are proven. The theories we take for granted today use to be unproven conjecture until experiments were done.

Simple denunciations of the stories do not cut it when the stories can be scientifically verified or proven false by building mockups and conducting tests.


Don’t listen to me and knock yourself out then… keep an eye on your wallet and let us know how that works out for you.


If I had a wallet to keep an eye on I wouldn't be lobbying for these experiments in a forum.

What you don’t understand (and haven’t been told) is even if you were able to create some kind of “anti-gravity” drive using some hypothetical form of “field propulsion” you still need an astronomically HUGE amount of energy to power it. Now you claim that “science and verifiability” can lead us to the “truth” about the ARV so show me your calculations of how much energy would be required to accelerate it to the speed of light and how much that power supply would weigh and how large it would be.


Again you are basing this assumption on the infallibility of our current model of physics. I do not believe our current model is correct. I will not believe the next model we create (which will eventually happen as it has before) will be the correct model either. History shows there is an awful lot we don't know. While we do know more today, that does not mean we know a 1/10 of 1% of what there is to know about the "unlimited possibilities of existence" to quote Q from All Good Things.


Like I said, all roads lead to Scammers Inc. eventually…


Abandon all hope...you have one depressing world view.


You raise some very excellent points, pretty damning points in the case of Brad Sorenson's and Mark McCandlish's credibility. I never caught the disparity in McCandlish's years in the air force.

Have you guys come across any information on this Leonardo Sanderson character that Novel claims is the one who brought the story to McCandlish, rather than Sorenson, in Novel's book? Did Novel just make him up out of whole cloth to replace Sorenson because of Sorenson's lack of credibility?

When you refer to Scammers Inc. are you implying they are all connected or that they are merely all scammers some related, some unrelated?

I guess i just find it odd that Doty and Collins would smear Sorenson and the ARV if the story was a fake considering they are known hoaxers and Doty is likely a govt disinfo agent.

I can see you do not believe in the ARV at all but for arguments sake if the report on it was real, you would admit that it would make sense for the government to pull a COINTELPRO and infiltrate groups trying to reverse engineer it right?

That is how I looked at Puthoff. I figured Doty and probably Collins are govt disinfo and Puthoff was COINTELPRO.

I looked at Puthoff as initially an interested fringe scientist interested in alien tech and was why he was working in RAM. When I read (thanks to you 3) how he had been working with Doty on SERPO and then read on ufoconspiracy.com that he had contributed to the Doty book I figured the govt got sloppy and outed one of their agents through guilt by association exposing that Puthoff was disinfo too. When I read that Puthoff got Martin Tajmar, who had anomalous results with his rotating superconductors, to join Puthoff at Puthoff's IASA and that Tajmar's experiment at IASA was on hold (a decision ultimately going to Puthoff as head of IASA) I started to think Puthoff was COINTELPRO, that he was a govt agent infiltrating groups working on figuring out gravity propulsion and that his job was to feed disinfo and otherwise keep in a holding pattern those working on these projects so they got nowhere.

Now Puthoff is going to Bigelow and I figured that was again so he could keep Bigelow in a holding pattern recognizing that Bigelow already has the resources to fund experiments but might not have any ideas where to look. I figured Puthoff was responsible for misdirecting them and reporting on their progress or lack thereof.
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed May 19, 2010 5:05 am

Bobbox1980 wrote:For the record I have heard of ITAR. It is one of the things killing our domestic commercial space programs since everyone else around the world that would work in America with Americans has to be cleared.


You are either uninformed, or underinformed, about ITAR. That is a terribly misleading statement about ITAR, firstly because it has nothing to do with clearing people who are not Americans. ITAR stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations. It prevents transfer of certain technology OUT OF US and TO other countries. Technology associated with anything having to do with arms. And that is prudent to any of us who work in defense. What it does NOT do is restrict anything coming INTO the US from any potential supplier outside the US. If some company from another country can convince me, a large scale system integrator, that they can produce a component or product that meets my requirements (i.e. they have their own technology that can meet my need), then I am free to subcontract to them, and all I need to do is ensure the spec I send them is reviewed for ITAR compliance. Understand? We don't GIVE them technology (a good thing), but if they can meet requirements I set down (without giving them technology), then they can bid and possibly win the job (another good thing).

I still think the CIA's possession of a heart attack weapon demonstrates their desire to be able to murder people without it looking like murder.


Please cite veridical evidence that the CIA possesses such a weapon. In other words, to quote any viable lawer "facts not in evidence, your honor."

You have presented some very damning evidence against Brad Sorenson.


Yes, he has. And kudos on that find, AD! Well done!

It seems plausible to me that he could have conceivably worked on projects but did not hold the patents themselves but that patents were able to be filed for the products and were granted. (snip) For arguments sake I don't suppose you asked Sorenson for any and all records relating to say the Mazda RX-7 he claims to have worked on? Maybe he did some 1099 contract work on it's design or something.


Stop right there. See, what you do not appear to understand is how some people (us) view this process you go through as being wholly unscientific. Why are you bothering to make excuses for him in sentence #1? It seems like you are willing to SEEK some sort of "cover" for anything someone tells you, just because you think it is interesting and you would like to believe it. I am assuming you know enough about how complex systems are put together that there is not "one designer" for such things...especially "Lockheed jet aircraft" and/or "US Navy aircraft carriers." There is no guy like Tony Stark, right? Even in the old days, with guys like Donald Douglas, Bill Boeing, Jack Northrop, or the more recent Kelly Johnson... they were chief engineers, and the design of such things have been associated with them, but they did not do ALL the design!

When you are a person like me, and you read those "credits" in that strange Samoan press release, you immediately know this guy is acting irresponsibly and up-selling what he did in a big way. Let me give you some examples from my career. I would NEVER assert my affiliations with aircraft designs as "credited for several designs including the MD-11, Boeing 717, Lockheed F-35, and the Northrop Grumman X-47B." That would be wholly misleading because people would think I was the chief engineer, or otherwise responsible for the whole design. What I WOULD say are things like "design integration and certification team on the MD-11 and B-717 automatic flight systems" or "principal systems engineer on the F-35 primary flight control actuation system" or "engine and throttle control system design and integration of the X-47B flight control system". That is specific. That is how we professionals who are NOT trying to mislead people cite our past design work. People who have really NOT done much at all on such projects, and are trying to sound impressive, do exactly what Mr. Sorenson has done in that press release. Without saying it explicitly, they want you to believe they had a bigger part than they may have had, if they had any at all!

If he did contract work on the Mazda RX-7, then why did he not explicitly state it in that way? Answer: To mislead you and sell himself as bigger than he really is. You see? Because it allegedly "adds credibility" to him when he makes statements about "alien technology" he saw in the back room of a trade show.

Truth is I never completely wrote Biefeld Brown off.


From just what I have witnessed of your investigative process, I wouldn't be surprised if you have also not completely written off the Scientology God Xenu, or Santa Claus for that matter!

When I ran across EHT I considered it the more likely explanation for how the ARV truly flew


And what basis in physics or engineering do you possess that allowed you to come to that evaluation of likelihood? How do you consider it likely if you cannot explain it without using pseudo-scientific terms which have never been verified, much less admitted to mainstream science? This is the puzzling part of how you seem to go about things.

I am a trekkie myself (not TOS though) but most UFO sightings involved circular discs. If high speed rotation is necessary circular discs make sense.


REALLY? I find that a bit comical, myself. Do you believe it makes sense for humans to be inside high speed, rotating devices such as this? Are you familiar with rotational accelerations and how they impart linear accelerations on a body as you move away from the center of rotation? Or are you just assuming some "core element" remains inertially stabilized to hold the human, and then some massive shell is rotating around that core? I am just trying to understand how your thought process goes from step A to B on things like this, as I think it could explain a lot about your approach to more...uhhh... "esoteric" things.


I do want to know the truth though admittedly I prefer to seek it out rather than have it spoonfed to me. The main reason I use the net for my news rather than TV is precisely to avoid being spoonfed.


That statement is a red flag for me. If that is really true, then you should be capable of developing "Extended Heim Theory" equations of motion from "first principles", including free body diagrams and vector notation...right?

You assume that our modern version of physics is correct and this is the only way to travel. You do not know for certain that is correct. Considering how many times humankind's accepted version of physics has been wrong I would say it is arrogant to think we now have it right.


Wow. It sounds like you are referencing the Copernican Revolution and trying to compare it to Relativity. I hope I am wrong. Modern physics IS CORRECT because the predictions the equations make have been experimentally verified! Where you get off using this typical "true believer" excuse above is beyond me! Newtonian physics is correct to a given level of accuracy depending upon the relative velocity of an object. Relativity came along and extended the level of accuracy in that same realm, and provided a high degree of accuracy in highly accelerated realms. And it has been experimentally verified in many different ways. EVEN IF some "magical revolution in physics" occurs, that new physics must still contain Newtonian and Einsteinien physics, because they are still valid. In other words, it will just be an add-on, and it may (hopefully) resolve one or two paradoxes that are currently unresolved. But the implications of your statement above is simply astounding in its own arrogance, not to mention a lack of understanding (again, it would seem) of how the scientific method works.

Sorry, I gotta quit here. You will not even admit Hollingshead's stuff is utter BS. What were your last words on it?

I know Hollingshead's case is pretty sketchy


It is more than "pretty sketchy". It is wholly and completely unverified in any way, shape, or form. NOTHING but empty claims!!! NO details, NO demonstrations, NO basis of analysis, NOTHING! And despite that whole lotta nuttin, we see THESE kinds of empty speculations by Hollingshead himself about the physics that HE BELIEVES are going on in this unverified/undemonstrated story:

Hollingshead describes several distinct field effects produced by his devices. Below is a collection of effects in Hollingshead's own words as reportedby Tim Ventura in American Antigravity (see External links):

Shield Effect
The shield effect is a slowly expanded spherical field that is produced by an altered rp and slower increased power and spin changes. This is complete enough a field to form a vacuum and strong enough to be hit with a rubber mallet and chair.
Tractor Effect
It's possible to produce a 'pull' field effect as well as a 'push'. So far I've been able to focus it for a short period of time on a 5 inch cube of wood 1.8 metres away and then drag the wood back towards the device by 30cm or so, by decreasing the focus range but keeping the power stable.
Temperature Effect
There are some things that you have to keep an eye out for, such as icing up of the rp - but I hope to correct that by heating the outer shell as per a suggestion by Colin.
Vacuum Effect
Vacuum is a deliberate effect of a slowly increased spherical shield, not normally present in moving variants.
Gravity Effect
The device acts to produce a regular gravitational field - the field strength is increased until there is equivalence with earths gravitational influence. Power beyond that is 'lensed' to produce movement the lensing is caused by increasing power above G threshold in one or more of the coils (providing they are not opposites).


WOW!!! All that speculation about "field effects" which no one else can possibly verify, and yet the guy cannot do a simple, Newtonian+Maxwellian analysis to describe what standard theories of physics say SHOULD happen when he turns it on.

Dude, that right there is a MAJOR NON-SEQUITOR! There is no way any sane person with a reasonable understanding of science could possibly resolve those two massively conflicting situations!

I think I am out here. The BS is way, way too deep for me! #-o
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby Zep Tepi » Wed May 19, 2010 9:36 am

Some great posts in this thread, this is exactly what RU is here for.

A note to Bobbox1980, no one associated with Scammers Inc are connected to the USG in any way, shape or form. Scammers Inc are a private enterprise and have been from the very start.
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby ryguy » Wed May 19, 2010 3:30 pm

That's right - although they've worked hard to convince folks that they still have existing intel connections as it gives them the mystique and turns them into an enigma that makes the entire fraud work.

Nice post Ray...!! Please don't leave the thread, this level of common sense is exactly what is needed. I especially like how you laid out how any new physics will be an add-on to modern verified laws of physics...I couldn't have said it any better myself!

Every stage of science has been an evolution, not a revolution...this is what "true believers" fail to understand. The "new age" is going to be an age of advanced science and physics - not some sort of "replacement" science.

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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby Bobbox1980 » Wed May 19, 2010 4:13 pm

@ You Can Call Me Ray
ITAR

Why America Is Lost in Space - Strict rules on U.S. military technology have helped boost Europe to the top of a $100 billion industry.
That is but one article. People from other countries in America with a foreign citizenship have to apply for and get a license from the government to work, that is another issue.
It places prior restraint on what American citizens are allowed to talk about. The First Amendment is pretty clear to me when it says "Congress shall make no law...".

CIA Heart Attack Weapon
Small Youtube Clip of Hearing before Congress on the Heart Attack Weapon.

Brad Sorenson
People pad their resume and make themselves look more important than they are, it is a fact of life. All I was saying was give Sorenson a chance to respond. How do you know for certain he did not work on the RX-7 in some capacity and had proof to back it up? He may be lying his ass off and not worked on it at all or totally exaggerating his role but at least ask him for proof and give him a chance to present it before the court finds him guilty of lying in some kind of trial in absentia. If he doesn't respond then his silence would be deafening. As far as the Somoan press release is concerned I was under the impression he was selling wind turbines not the ARV. And Yes, I do want to believe the ARV story, as I have noted in my posts it seems to be the most reverse engineerable craft out of all the UFO stories.

EHT vs Biefeld Brown
I said I considered it the more likely. Such a phrase can mean I give Biefeld Brown a .1% of working in propelling a craft vs a 10% chance for EHT to propel a craft. Any explanation I give about EHT is not going to meet with your approval. I told you to read the source documents. Go to their web site and read their papers yourself, get it from the horses mouth, if it still smacks of pseudo-science to you then so be it. No one asks NewScientist or Science Daily to fully explain and prove any of the stories they come across or the theories behind those stories. I didn't develop the theories and I am not going to understand or explain them nearly as well as their authors.

Circular UFOs and Rotation
I was referring to rotating parts within the UFO (like a rotating disc), not the UFO spinning around like a gravitron ride at an amusement park. How could you possibly get the impression that I was alluding to that?

Seeking Information vs Sitting in Front of the Boob Tube and Having It Given to You
I already told you once that until you had mentioned them I had never even heard of free body diagrams and now you are busting my balls again over it because I stated I don't like to be spoonfed (ie sit in front of the boob tube for information).

Changes in Physics
I understand that newer versions would be modifications that would explain what is currently unexplained, it may also provide new explanations for what had been explained before in a different way. We are just not on the same wave length. I make a short statement on how I do not think we have it right yet and you interpret that as me thinking that the our current physics don't explain things to any accuracy today. I can't win with you, just about anything I say you twist into something else.

Hollingshead
Some times experiments come before theories. The fact that Hollingshead has not provided anyone with proof is very sketchy and it points to hoax. As I said before I brought it up due to similarities to the ARV. I disagree with your statement that he could not find different field effects while not understanding what current science would say is behind it. If a farmer in Roswell found a crashed UFO he couldn't hit some buttons on the alien console and have it provide effects that he can describe? If Hollingshead turns the button on his device and had a thermometer in the middle he is unable to observe the decrease in temperature? Your argument stems from if this guy can't explain it in modern physics there is no way he can build something that does something beyond them. While it is unlikely it is not impossible, you have made a logical fallacy.


@ Zep Tepi and ryguy

Are you certain none of these people are still connected to government? The CIA has been known to call upon old agents and contacts to help them out again. Do you have proof of your claims? Hell, I do not trust former CIA who become Congressmen for just that reason. Bilderberg, the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations are all composed of ex-elected officials, ex-political appointees, and businessmen and they do tell the people in government what to do and what they should be thinking. Hillary Clinton admitted as much when she was being introduced at a CFR meeting.

I'm sure it's not unheard of for former military intelligence officers to be liars and scammers looking to scam money from people. Are you implying that Sorenson, McCandlish, Puthoff, Doty, Novel, and Greer are all a part of one private group that is looking to scam the ufology community for money?

Anything at all on Leonardo Sanderson?

Why hasn't the government stepped in to prosecute the group for fraud? They've been around for a long time, Greer has been soliciting money for the project for a long time, the government puts agents into the tiniest of protest groups yet they don't have anyone on the inside of this group making a case against them for fraud?
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby ryguy » Wed May 19, 2010 5:03 pm

Bobbox1980 wrote:@ Zep Tepi and ryguy
Are you certain none of these people are still connected to government? The CIA has been known to call upon old agents and contacts to help them out again. Do you have proof of your claims?


Actually - the opposite. There's proof at least one of them still maintains connections and may even do contract work on matters completely unrelated to UFOs. As far as Puthoff no longer having connections, I'm not sure how to prove a negative to your satisfaction. Yes, he was an NSA analyst in his early days (analyst, not intel agent...there's a big difference). Last evidence of any existing connection was 1985, and even that was in the capacity of a contractor, not a direct employee - and again, not a counter-intel intelligence agent (yes, the evidence bears that out). No evidence since 1985 supports any continued government involvement, since he went private with his Institute using Mr. Chicken's moola.

The idea that any of these guys, particularly Puthoff and Green, would be "called upon" by the CIA to help out with counter-intel activities doesn't logically make sense. Neither of them were intelligence agents...why would they be called upon for Intel efforts?

With that said - the government does have a history of utilizing domestic scientists as a "tool" to distribute false scientific information, in order to thwart foreign governments. It was commonplace for the U.S. to place false scientific results/findings into the hands of U.S. scientists who would travel overseas and share that "data" with foreign scientists (Russian)...these efforts are well documented and both countries took part in it. Is it possible that the U.S. is still utilizing scientists who they know believe in "weird" topics in some effort to disinform foreign governments?

Yes...it's possible - but if so then consider this... The "leaked" documents that have filtered throughout the UFO community seek to convince that the U.S. government recovered alien craft, alien technology and alien bodies. If this disinfo comes from the U.S. government and not a private group of individuals - why would one literally believe what the counter-intel attempts to portray? Isn't it far more likely that distributed stories about alien craft (and associated technologies) and alien bodies may be a cover-up for something much different crashing than an alien craft?

What I'm saying is that - if you believe Scammer's Inc could be U.S. government counter-intel...then the stories they distribute about the existence of uncovered alien technologies - being COINTELPRO - that means that the stories are not true, but instead a cover for something entirely different (and most likely entirely terrestrial).

Hell, I do not trust former CIA who become Congressmen for just that reason. I'm sure it's not unheard of for former military intelligence officers to be liars and scammers looking to scam money from people. Are you implying that Sorenson, McCandlish, Puthoff, Doty, Novel, and Greer are all a part of one private group that is looking to scam the ufology community for money?


Scammer's Inc is small community of individuals with common goals, but no they do not always work together as a cohesive group. They are individuals who understand the game, understand the psychology of the lemmings, and utilize that awareness to convince the lemmings what they want to believe (for example, that there exists an end-product of reverse engineered alien technology with huge profit margins) - in order to con folks out of seed money for their pet projects.

Why hasn't the government stepped in to prosecute the group for fraud? They've been around for a long time, Greer has been soliciting money for the project for a long time, the government puts agents into the tiniest of protest groups yet they don't have anyone on the inside of this group making a case against them for fraud?


If a particular private fraud isn't criminal in nature, the FBI will not prosecute. Convincing idiots who think they're smarter than they are to invest their money into your bogus project, while unethical, isn't illegal (as far as I know). If you consent to invest into an effort to reverse engineer alien technology, the FBI can't really prosecute the person for taking money from stupid people. So long as I can show that I have a bunch of equipment and a "lab", and that I really am trying to do what I have promised to do for the money (knowing full well that it'll never come to fruition), there really isn't much anyone can do to prosecute.

What we can do is expose how idiotic the reverse engineering claims are, disrupt the con-game, and hopefully reduce or destroy Scammer's Inc profit margin. Basically, hit them where it hurts.

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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby murnut » Wed May 19, 2010 6:54 pm

Excellent post Ryan
"The Conformers are hard to read. They are rocks."
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby Bobbox1980 » Wed May 19, 2010 8:28 pm

@ ryguy

I think you may have misunderstood how I viewed those groups of people.

Sorenson
no evidence he was ever in the military or intelligence agencies, no evidence he was ever involved in classified projects
Sanderson
no evidence he was ever in the military or intelligence agencies, no evidence he was ever involved in classified projects though nothing is really known about his background and he could be entirely fictional
McCandlish
served in the air force, no evidence he was ever involved in classified work

The story of the ARV at least from what I can tell originated with McCandlish and either Sorenson or Sanderson, civilians at the time, so I do not suspect the story originated from the government. In my mind McCandlish was told the story either from Sorenson like he originally claimed or Sanderson was the real originator and Sanderson did not want people to know it was him and they had Sorenson agree to be the source. Perhaps Sorenson and McCandlish created the story to try and scam people for money but to my knowledge neither have made any real money off of it.


Doty
evidence he was in an air force intelligence unit, no direct evidence his SERPO hoax or book hoax were by the govt but his prior career begs the question. He or co-author Collins knocked down ARV story and Sorenson.
Puthoff
evidence he was in the navy and worked at the NSA at the time, worked at the NSA after leaving the navy, worked on classified projects at SRI, involved in Doty's hoax of SERPO and Doty's book and probably a lot of the "science" in Novel's book.
Novel
papers released say he never worked for the CIA though with his claims of connections and his speaking highly of the CIA I figured he might be a lackey that the CIA uses occasionally, nothing more than a pawn and/or scam artist. His book plays down importance of the flywheel with the initial prototype RAM test rig not having one.
Greer
no evidence he was in the military, intelligence agencies or ever did classified work
Kit Green
I am not familiar with his background nor his statements pro or con for the arv
Ron Pandolfi
I am not familiar with his background nor his statements pro or con for the arv


It is out of this second group that has a military or intelligence agency background or has worked on classified projects that I suspect one or more are govt disinfo and/or cointelpro if the ARV story is real.

The idea that any of these guys, particularly Puthoff and Green, would be "called upon" by the CIA to help out with counter-intel activities doesn't logically make sense. Neither of them were intelligence agents...why would they be called upon for Intel efforts?


I figured that since Puthoff did work on classified projects he could be trusted to keep secrets and maybe he was privy to very secret intel when he was at the NSA, maybe he knew how the technology worked and would be in a better position than a normal counter intelligence agent to know if what the group was working on might work and to then use his knowledge to misdirect the group in minor ways.

Many biographies on Puthoff said he would be in the top of his field in laser physics if he hadn't left it. I just don't see why he would leave a promising career to become a scam artist, that makes no sense to me but it wouldn't be the first time a bright person did a dumb thing.
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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby ryguy » Wed May 19, 2010 9:42 pm

Bobbox1980 wrote:
The idea that any of these guys, particularly Puthoff and Green, would be "called upon" by the CIA to help out with counter-intel activities doesn't logically make sense. Neither of them were intelligence agents...why would they be called upon for Intel efforts?


I figured that since Puthoff did work on classified projects he could be trusted to keep secrets and maybe he was privy to very secret intel when he was at the NSA, maybe he knew how the technology worked and would be in a better position than a normal counter intelligence agent to know if what the group was working on might work and to then use his knowledge to misdirect the group in minor ways.


He was an analyst that required classified clearances to do his work - there are a lot of people who work on classified projects. We have a number of members here who hold classified clearances and do classified work...having clearances to do classified work does not make one an intelligence agent, or a counter-intelligence agent. Do you see my point? It's an important one.

A lot of these people use the fact that they've worked on classified projects to hint that they have "inside" information about classified information much larger in scope than they'd ever have access to or have a need to know. It's all part of the game and they've used this approach for everything that it's worth.

Many biographies on Puthoff said he would be in the top of his field in laser physics if he hadn't left it. I just don't see why he would leave a promising career to become a scam artist, that makes no sense to me but it wouldn't be the first time a bright person did a dumb thing.


Now you're barking up the right tree. I don't meant to plug my own blog, but I wrote this article over there back then (I should have published it here at RU) - but it outlines the history that you're discussing. I highly recommend that you read this article...in particular, the concluding paragraph mirrors the excellent observation that you've just made.

In the 1973 book, The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, the authors outlined an example of how this brilliant scientist, who was formerly on track to become one of the world’s foremost quantum physicists, started conducting E-meter research. One particular experiment involved connecting an E-meter to one egg in order to measure the galvanic response when he broke another egg nearby.

Needless to say, he made the absolutely groundbreaking discovery that chicken eggs do not have feelings.


Scientology had the capability to do some pretty loopy things to even the most intelligent minds.

-Ryan
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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Re: Gordon Novel's RAM

Postby Bobbox1980 » Wed May 19, 2010 10:38 pm

He was an analyst that required classified clearances to do his work - there are a lot of people who work on classified projects. We have a number of members here who hold classified clearances and do classified work...having clearances to do classified work does not make one an intelligence agent, or a counter-intelligence agent. Do you see my point? It's an important one.


I see your point but it's not like this would be a cointelpro op in the mob or a gang or a Colombian drug cartel, or in the KGB, etc. We are talking about a group of people working on a science project (if they are even doing that and the whole thing isn't a big scam). How many elite counter-intelligence skills would really be needed for the assignment I am hypothesizing he is in? Know how to lie about the science to put people off the right track. It seems like a scientist familiar with the material would have the best ability for spitballing on something like that. Report back to a handler on what has been discussed. All one needs is a good memory for that.

Scientology had the capability to do some pretty loopy things to even the most intelligent minds.


It's just a hypothesis of mine but I figured that maybe Puthoff found more in his classified ESP experiments at SRI than has been released. I think I read that from the experiments and research they did the government came to the conclusion that ESP was real but they did not know how to control it.

I do not know scientology well enough to state anything with any definitiveness, I intend to read up on their practices at xenu.net but I figured maybe Hal Puthoff realized that if one could control their own galvanic skin response, resistance, that the e-meter reads, that maybe it would enhance their ability to control ESP and was why he put in the time and money to get to the highest level, level 7 was it?

Even if scientology messed with his head and is total bunk and ESP is total bunk it doesn't explain why he would end his laser physics research unless he found something better or just that sometimes bright people do dumb things.

P.S. I did read that article of yours not too long ago.
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