Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:15 pm

This seems like a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable response…

Decker wrote:But ... something landed in the desert and if it was a NASA vehicle then why in hell didn't they just come out and say so?

Well, some points worth considering might be…

1. Recall at the time we we’re in a (very serious) race with Russia to be the first to land a man on the Moon. (think bad publicity)

2. Hughes, not NASA, would have responsible for the SNAFU and if you know anything about the man, you might understand why he would have wanted to keep it under wraps. (they were way behind schedule and had already destroyed one Surveyor test vehicle in a balloon drop test)

3. It’s good to keep them guessing. (there is some evidence Blue Book investigators were given the run around)

So why hasn’t anybody come forward after all these years? Good question. Some possibilities would seem to include that those (and there need not be many) who were involved…

A. Took it to their grave
B. Don’t care what UFO buffs think
C. Perhaps find some amusement in it
D. Are perhaps embarrassed by it
E. Don’t want the publicity
F. Don’t want to be hassled by UFO buffs

I can vouch for the reality of this having known some folks involved in similar incidents… they often keep it to family and friends.

Anyway, my findings in this case are detailed in this rather long and tortuous thread for anybody who’s interested and has the patience to wade thought it all and would like to continue this discussion there…

The Evidentiary Thread (Exhibits, Documentation, Testimony)

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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby gunter » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 pm

General Twining addressed all of your objections 63 years ago. You're denial of the phenomena as well as the denial of the implications of your own sighting indicate to me that your debunkery is Klassic and pathological. Pick up a copy of any book by Don Keyhoe or Rich Dolan. Research is more than sweaty little flights of googling.

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/twining.htm

The Twining Memo

(This is a transcription from the original memo. As much as possible, the original format has been preserved.)




This letter was sent out from Air Material Commands (AMC) in response to a request from Brig General Schulgen. As a result of the opinions expressed by Twining, Gen Schulgen issued his now famous Collection Memorandum.

Gen. Twining requested that investigations be conducted that might shed some light on the recent rash of Flying Saucer sightings. In response to the Schugen Collection Memorandum, The Walker Memo was sent to see what field offices could find.

Some proponents view this letter as proof that the Air Force knows that extraterrestrial UFOs exist. The closest the the letter comes to considering alien origin is the opinion that [there is] "The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge." However, the proponents tend to ignore, or dismiss as an "obvious lie" dictated by the Super Secret Roswell Conspiracy, the instruction that his commanders should consider: "The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects."


SUBJECT: AMC Opinion Concerning "Flying Discs"

TO: Commanding General

Army Air Force

Washington 25, D.C.

ATTENTION: Brig. General George Schulgen

AC/AS-2

1. As requested by AC/AS-2 there is presented below the considered opinion of this command concerning the so-called "Flying Discs." This opinion is based on interrogation report data furnished by AC/AS-2 and preliminary studies by personnel of T-2 and Aircraft Laboratory, Engineering Division T-3. This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air Institute of Technology, Intelligence T-2, Office, Chief of Engineering Division, and the Aircraft, Power Plant and Propeller Laboratories of Engineering Division T-3.

2. It is the opinion that:

a. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious.
b. There are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc, of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as man-made aircraft.
c. There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors.
d. The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and motion which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically or remotely.
e. The apparent common description is as follows:-

(1) Metallic or light reflecting surface.
(2) Absence of trail, except in a few instances where the object apparently was operating under high performance conditions.
(3) Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top.
(4) Several reports of well kept formation flights varying from three to nine objects.
(5) Normally no associated sound, except in three instances a substantial rumbling roar was noted.
(6) Level flight speeds normally above 300 knots are estimated.

f. It is possible within the present U.S. knowledge -- provided extensive detailed development is undertaken -- to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general description of the object in sub- paragraph (e) above which would be capable of an approximate range of 7000 miles at subsonic speeds.

g. Any development in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time consuming and at the considerable expense of current projects and therefore, if directed, should be set up independently of existing projects.

h. Due consideration must be given the following:-

(1) The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin - the product of some high security project not known to AC/AS-2 or this Command.

(2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.

(3) The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge.

3. It is recommended that:-

a. Headquarters, Army Air Forces issue a directive assigning a priority, security classification and Code name for a detailed study of this matter to include the preparation of complete sets of all available and pertinent data which will then be made available to the Army, Navy, Atomic Energy Commission, JRDB, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Group, NACA, and the RAND and NEPA projects for comments and recommendations, with a preliminary report to be forwarded within 15 days of receipt of the data and a detailed report thereafter every 30 days as the investigation develops. A complete interchange of data should be affected.

4. Awaiting a specific directive AMC will continue the investigation within its current resources in order to more closely define the nature of the phenomenon. Detailed Essential Elements of Information will be formulated immediately for transmittal thru channels.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby ryguy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:40 am

Decker wrote:My mind is open enough that the cases that have always interested me were primarily military and NASA cases. (However some police cases like Zamora also fascinated me.) Now, is that to imply that I think this was "ET" landing in the desert? No. But ... something landed in the desert and if it was a NASA vehicle then why in hell didn't they just come out and say so? I don't buy the NASA explanation. How about a secret military proto-type vehicle? Hmm, possibly but if so ... and don't forget, as I write this it has been 46 years ago, where in hell is it? How many actual military 46 or 50 years ago secrets .. still secret?


If I understand correctly, not all projects eventually get declassified, particular if releasing them is still considered an issue of "national security." I have a very strong feeling that there are a lot of cases that have inappropriately fallen under that category - while the truth is that the project is only being kept classified for the sake of avoiding embarrassment or to prevent the call for a public lynching (in the case of grossly unethical projects). The report of this cop really sounded to me like he caught a glimpse of a secret military prototype related to a project where the details today still can't be released - just my gut feeling.

My logic and my sense of BS that certain agencies within the U.S. Govt. spew cause me to suspect, with good reason, that something is and has been going on for a really long time that someone goes to great lengths to suppress.


I actually agree with that 100%. I don't think it has to do with ET or aliens, but I too am gravitating toward the idea that the military as been working very hard to maintain a long-running cover-up of a project (or projects) that, for some reason, were so serious or terrible that public release would incite extreme panic/anger/fear/fury....or some other public reaction that could put national security at risk.

Again, I personally don't think it has anything to do with aliens or ET craft - in my opinion that's just a convenient cover that UFOlogy folks are all too happy to accommodate.

-Ryan
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:44 am

ryguy wrote:I actually agree with that 100%. I don't think it has to do with ET or aliens, but I too am gravitating toward the idea that the military as been working very hard to maintain a long-running cover-up of a project (or projects) that, for some reason, were so serious or terrible that public release would incite extreme panic/anger/fear/fury....or some other public reaction that could put national security at risk.


Ryan,

An answer that would be simpler than "a long-running cover-up of a project (or projects)" would be a cover-up of an investigation of the Phenomena.

As the MOD's "Condign" report states, "Descriptions are much the same and often identical to those reported today. - Listings go back far beyond the days of all manned flight, lasers or satellites. Hence, none of these familiar objects of the 20th century could have caused the earlier reports shown. (Vol. 1, para 17)

The idea of "cover-up of a project" doesn't fit the evidence and answers no old questions but forces new questions. Now we have an original phenomena and a secret project covered up by the phenomena. If that were true we have two mysteries now instead of one!

If you can believe in a cover-up for a project, then why not a cover-up for an investigation? The latter is much simpler and poses no new questions and possibly explains quite a bit of behavior.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby gunter » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:59 pm

If you can believe in a cover-up for a project, then why not a cover-up for an investigation? The latter is much simpler and poses no new questions and possibly explains quite a bit of behavior.
A quick reading of the Robertson Panel Report answers this question. It is patently obvious that the Earth is being observed by beings not of this planet (as we understand it.) This is a frightening principle to both governments and citizens. There is a vast body of evidence attesting to just this highly strange and distressing truth. That body of ETH evidence has been dismissed by so called 'rational skeptics' because it marginalizes their own conceits and presuppositions. Even the evidence provided by their own eyes is denied out of hand because it challenges their operative paradigm. These 'wise and sensible individuals' are the modern day equivalent to flat earthers- latter day medievalists who's forebears denied the evidence of Heliocentricism.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby Chorlton » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:06 pm

Well in my opinion the Earth is flat and we aint being watched, cos if we are they would have seen what I used to do to a cored apple behind the bike sheds when I was 12, and that doesnt bear thinking about now.

So there
From a wise and sensitive individual

I would like to add, having seen the Glastonbury fields today it isnt going to be muddy at all............................
Untill it rains.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby gunter » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:20 pm

Dear Mr Chorlton,

We are well aware of the 1962 Apple Incident (Case #34976) and it will be addressed by the IEIU/ WAD (Intergalactic Earth Intervention Unit, Wanking Awareness Division) in due time. The WAD takes these sorts of matters very seriously.

Best regards,
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Commander BE2, Presiding

CC: Mrs Caryn Anscomb, MI6
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby Decker » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:22 pm

One thing that I've learned about the "net" is ... once it is out there it absolutely never goes away. Kind of like trying to push toothpaste back into the tube ... it's impossible.

Apparently one of my radio listeners started a thread up on the Above Top Secret website today on Milton William "Bill" Cooper with a link to my Dark Matters Radio show I conducted on Cooper. If interested go to ... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread587733/pg1

I suppose, much like the Richard Thielman story, there will be those who go to the grave believing Cooper was the real deal ... upright, patriotic and true red&white& blue. Back in the 90's when I conducted the original expose on him and especially later when he was killed after shooting a police officer in the head, one would think most everybody would have figured out this guy was simply and really ... bad news. I guess not after reading some of the responses from folks that have posted there today. I personally do not frequent ATS but someone pointed me to it earlier.

I have a forum over at the Paracast website called Dark Matters Radio and one of those ATS folks dropped by to scold me for my broadcast. I suppose I got a little rough on him but then I "lived" with that moron for years prior to him getting himself killed by the police. I guess I will simply say that this planet can be a strange place, eh?

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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby ryguy » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:08 am

Decker wrote:I have a forum over at the Paracast website called Dark Matters Radio and one of those ATS folks dropped by to scold me for my broadcast. I suppose I got a little rough on him but then I "lived" with that moron for years prior to him getting himself killed by the police. I guess I will simply say that this planet can be a strange place, eh?

Decker


Yeah - you gotta be careful with ATS folks. There are a lot of smart, intelligent folks over there, but I think it's really getting overrun by insanity in the last few years. I mean, John Lear was essentially provided his own forum there to spout his drivel...what does that tell you....?

The guy who scolded you probably had no clue of the history surrounding Cooper (the true history, that you personally experienced) - but the problem with the web is that it's very easy for someone to convince themselves that they have the whole story after reading a couple of websites. Everyone's suddenly an expert.

Good to hear you roughed him up though - you still fight the good fight...lol.

-Ryan
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby Decker » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:01 pm

This whole Cooper thing reminded me of a news/blog article done by Billy Cox (if you don't know him, a newspaper reporter that does an online blog on the UFO Phenomena) last November on my Cooper show. I thought some of you may find this of interest... notice the very last name mentioned in the article.

Decker

http://devoid.blogs.heraldtribune.com/1 ... -oblivion/

Rants from Oblivion by Billy Cox

November 25th, 2009 11:57am
Rants from oblivion

by Billy Cox

Nothing, no matter how toxic or discredited, ever dies in the eternal limbo of the Internet. But after hearing a recent podcast lionizing Bill Cooper as the noble martyr who sewed “the seed beds for the patriot movement,” Don Ecker figured it was time for a history lesson. “I’m shocked that people don’t know what a maniac this guy was,” Ecker says from his home outside Los Angeles. “The guy was absolutely out of his mind.”

Combustible, paranoid, grandiose and delusional, Cooper’s ravings continue to attract admirers, and you can still find his One World Order conspiracy rant — “Behold a Pale Horse” — on chain-store bookshelves. At the end, when he wasn’t waving guns at neighbors outside his hilltop ranch near rural Eagar, Ariz., Cooper was spewing apocalyptic confabulism from a show called “The Hour of the Time” via the Worldwide Christian Radio network in Nashville.

Cooper was wanted for tax evasion and bank fraud at the time of his attempted arrest on 11/5/01. An exchange of gunfire left him dead and a sheriff’s deputy critically wounded. In another time, another age, that might’ve been all she wrote.

Talk radio first placed Cooper’s riffs before mass audiences in the late Eighties, when the Navy veteran uncorked insider tales of UFOs and military intelligence. But with each passing year, his conspiracy yarns ballooned by orders of magnitude, careening from JFK’s assassination at the hands of his limo driver to world domination by the insidious Illuminati. Ultimately, he began accusing UFO researchers who questioned his veracity of being CIA stooges.

Among the first to challenge him was Don Ecker, then investigative director of UFO Magazine. Ecker, who calls Cooper’s book “Behold a Pail of Horse*&#!,” exposed Cooper’s lies in a two-part series way back in 1990. Between the Bill Coopers of the world and a mainstream media that wouldn’t follow a legitimate trail of UFO evidence if was wrapped in thousand-dollar bills and served with Dove bars, Ecker tired of spinning his wheels and left UFOlogy research in 2007.

Gone but not forgotten -- the late Bill Cooper continues to broadcast from cyberspace/CREDIT: tradebit.com

Among the things Ecker left behind was a decade’s worth of his own radio shows, called “Dark Matters.” Lately, he’s been uploading these archives on The Paracast network, and they’re worth a listen. His BS meter tingling with the skepticism of the police detective he once was, Ecker tested his lines of logic and research on some of the biggest names in the UFO subculture. The results are instructive and often quite entertaining.

Anyway — after being sufficiently aggravated by the persistent afterlife of the Bill Cooper phenomenon, Ecker assembled a two-hour show restoring some proportion. It’s all here, Cooper in his own words, the bullying, the contradictions, the threatening, drunken voice messages resembling the howl of a wounded lycanthrope.

And it remains, unfortunately, relevant. Because, as the Arizona Republic reported in 2001, at least one avid fan of “The Hour of Time” was so impressed he apparently visited Cooper in early 1995. All it takes is one. His name was Timothy McVeigh.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby longhaircowboy » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:33 pm

gunter wrote:
There is a vast body of evidence attesting to just this highly strange and distressing truth.

Boy thats quite a claim there. I'd love to see ya back that up with some facts. And before ya rant about me being a skeptic I'm not. I'm just a humble UFO investigator and researcher who wouldn't dare say something like that.
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby Access Denied » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:46 am

longhaircowboy wrote:Boy thats quite a claim there. I'd love to see ya back that up with some facts.

Don't hold your breath... the sum total of his "vast body of evidence" consists solely of some books he thinks we haven't read.

And before ya rant about me being a skeptic I'm not. I'm just a humble UFO investigator and researcher who wouldn't dare say something like that.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll."

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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby ryguy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:21 pm

Access Denied wrote:"Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll."

©2010 Access Denied. All rights reserved.


Nice...good idea to copyright, I was just getting ready to steal that. :)
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:12 pm

Here's a compilation of UFO events aggregated by Jacques Vallee, a Ufologist that we all purport to admire. It's but a small part of the evidence that he had compiled up the point of publishing 'Passport.' Ignore it at your peril.
http://www.ufoinfo.com/magonia/magonia.shtml
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Re: Wm. Cooper, MJ-12

Postby ryguy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:53 pm

Few here refute the reality of "UFO Events" - it's the most probably cause of them that's up for debate. Vallee most certainly does not share your conviction that they are caused by creatures from another galaxy far far away.
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