The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:09 pm

Access Denied wrote: Do you really believe Jesus walked around with a golden halo floating over his head?


Doesn't this just "prove" that Jesus was a space alien? Ahh, circular "logic"? :lol:
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby mavn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:58 am

Your post is funny and I had a rough day so thanks for making me laugh. No, I do not believe that Jesus walked around with a halo over his head, however circles around the head, halos and rayed arc's are commonplace in Pacific Northwest rock art (petroglyphs). Do we know where iconology and symbolism originated? Perhaps it was with our very ancient ancestors who wrote their stories and drew their pictures onto the sides of rock formations. :)
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby Access Denied » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:54 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Ahh, circular "logic"? :lol:

aka “Saucer Logic”

Well mavn, I checked out the Crystal Links site and the pics are really poor quality.

Here’s some better pics of the Buffalo Eddy petroglyphs…

Space alien with helmet??

Image
[click on pic for higher res]

“Possible triangular craft with retroflares
Figure inside - Beings Below
Left of the ship 4 entities”

[caption from the Crystal Links site, the “entities” are actually on the right, the Crystal Links pic is shown upside down, presumably so the triangle “craft” isn’t doing a “retro” burn to avoid doing a nose dive into the ground]

Image
[click on pic for higher res]

Full context...

Image

“Possible Star Beings - Portal or UFO”
[caption from the Crystal Links site]

Image
[click on pic for higher res]

Native American taggers... who knew? I didn’t think they had Peyote that far North. 8)

Seriously though, apparently the more “graphic” (geometric) stuff isn’t as old as the more “natural” looking stuff which calls into question the date of origin…

This Rock Art associated with Nez Perce and pre-Nez Perce tribes consists of hundreds of images in dense clusters dating from 4500 years ago.

[snip]

Although repatination of petroglyph designs does not provide an absolute age (since exposure, temperature, humidity, and other factors influence the rate of patina formation), petroglyphs repatinating differently on the same surface are useful for creating a relative chronology. At Buffalo Eddy, Nesbitt (1968) described two rock art styles. A naturalistic style shown first in the pictures above with primarily mountain sheep, deer, and humans wearing horned headdresses, while a (lower rocks) "graphic" style is composed of triangles, circles, dots, and lines arranged in geometric patterns. At Buffalo Eddy, the naturalistic petroglyphs are usually repatinated, some very heavily. In contrast, the graphic designs are reported as fresher looking and cut through the patina on the rock surface. In this case, the naturalistic drawings of men and mountain sheep clearly seem older than the graphic geometric designs. A unique characteristic of some of the human depictions here is that human bodies are drawn with a triangle with wide side up.

I think that pretty much rules out your theory of the Dogon (in Africa) being descendants of the Nez Perce (in America)… apparently they didn’t leave their “stargate report” as you call it until more recently.

Sources: [with more pics]

http://www.beacon-christian.org/buffaloeddy1.htm
http://www.spokaneoutdoors.com/buffaloeddy.htm
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby ryguy » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:21 pm

Man...people really do see what they want to see within images don't they.

That bottom one looks like probably one of humanity's very first baseball field designs. :)

That top one looks a heck of a lot like the old portrayals of saints (such as the very common Mary images) dating back to single digit A.D. Christian artwork. The same sort of "angelic" imagery exists even earlier than that of course, always with that round "halo" above/behind the head. Anyone who views it as a "space helmet" doesn't seem capable of viewing such art with a 3-D perspective...lol.

Those are really cool drawings, thanks for posting them Tom. I guess mavn is right, it comes down to how people are willing to interpret things... but on a few of those, folks are really stretching their imaginations a bit...lol

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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby mavn » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:55 pm

For what it is worth - These are all photos of the Buffalo Eddy site but none of them show the scene I referred to in an earlier post where the planets and stars are lined up, so one is not seeing the panel with the battle scene. I just pointed out the Crystal Links website to give you a better idea of how different NW rock art is from other areas. If you read back to one of my original posts - I said the main rock art site that I was aware of where the figure had an elaborate circle drawn around his head (possibly symbolic of a cosmic type space helmet-my interpretation) was about a hundred miles north of the Big Eddy site on the Little Spokane River. And there are many other sites (if you are truly interested in knowing more about petroglyphs) that are focused on in the book "Indian Rock Art of the Columbia Plateau" written by James D. Keyser that indicate figures with round circles drawn around the head of the character. From what I have read I believe the archeological record places the Nez Perce as a distinct tribe in the Snake River area from about 1250 - 1300 and any earlier rock would be contributed to others, possibly a Shoshone speaking people for one. What is significantly obvious is that these ancient people were communicating about an event or events that were very important to them. James Keyser suggests some of the oldest petroglyphs on the Columbia Plateau are approximately 7500 years old. And as far as the peyote goes, even Jacob (son of Isaac, grandson of Abraham) supposedly had his wife pick mandrake for him so who knows?
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby Access Denied » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:48 pm

Well, the book you cited has this to say about that in the conclusion…

Of Irish Monks and Ancient Astronauts
Indian Rock Art of the Columbia Plateau By James D. Keyser

[in reference to the theory (among others) that “A few years ago some African pictographs were identified as graffiti from ancient space travelers who visited earth and left there mark thousands of years ago.”]

In the words of Campbell Grant, a nationally renowned American rock art scholar, all of these flights of fancy have one thing in common: they are investigations conducted in reverse (Grant 1967). Propounders of these imaginary explanations develop a pet theory and then selectively gather evidence to support it. Facts that do not conform to the theory are ignored, or more often, changed to fit preconceived ideas. [p. 127]

Keyser ends his book with this thought I feel gives credit where credit is due, to the creativity and imagination of Native Americans…

But the simpler explanation, that these drawings were made by American Indians, is as dramatic as any of the fanciful ones. Records of battles, buffalo hunts, and the first appearance of the horse are persevered in these paintings. Others picture the mythical monsters and supernatural beings that populated the Indian’s world and made it one of excitement and danger. Imagining myself as a young boy, sent out alone to fast for three days and nights in the hope of meeting a spirit being from the "other" world, I need no Irish monks or ancient astronauts to feed a sense of awe and wonder, or to appreciate these images of forgotten dreams. [p. 128]
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby mavn » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:12 pm

yes, I have no doubt that some or perhaps all Native Americans are descendents of the first ones who left their artwork on the rocks thousands of years ago but who is to say what events helped to trigger the very unusual themes of their designs. I respect James Keyser for what he has written and the drawings he displayed in his book however I do not personally agree with everything he thinks. If everyone stopped discussing and investigating topics of interest to them because a handful of people believe this way or that then it seems there would be no need for individual research and definitely no need for discussion boards such as this one.
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby lost_shaman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:07 am

mavn wrote:yes, I have no doubt that some or perhaps all Native Americans are descendents of the first ones who left their artwork on the rocks thousands of years ago but who is to say what events helped to trigger the very unusual themes of their designs.

------- from another post, edited by l_s.

James Keyser suggests some of the oldest petroglyphs on the Columbia Plateau are approximately 7500 years old.


Hey mavn,

There are older rock art sites than this in the Americas, there are even a few human remains and plenty of artifacts much older than 7,500 BP in the Americas. It's generally accepted, for instance, that early Clovis sites date to around 11,500 BP.

As for "unusual themes" are not all the things Native Americans may have done over time immemorial "unusual" to you or I (?), who have never heard nor discovered these people lost to history until just relatively recently?

I don't mean to be rude or come across as a "closed mind" mavn, but I just don't see the need to invoke "Stargates" as an explanation for a Human presence in the Americas between 16,000 and 12,000 years BP just because some >7,500 BP Rock Art in the local area shows circles around the "Heads" of people depicted in the local Rock Art.
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby mavn » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:39 pm

Perhaps I just believe (from my research and observations) that the history of Native North America is much richer and more complex than the average person might think. And personally I see no reason why ancient people (i.e. ancestors of modern day Native Americans) couldn't have had advanced information about the cosmos (and other things) at one time. Whether they actually did or not - who knows?
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:18 am

mavn wrote:Perhaps I just believe (from my research and observations) that the history of Native North America is much richer and more complex than the average person might think. And personally I see no reason why ancient people (i.e. ancestors of modern day Native Americans) couldn't have had advanced information about the cosmos (and other things) at one time. Whether they actually did or not - who knows?


Hey mavn,

I really appreciate that response.

You're right in that I don't know either,... How can we know what the first Americans or their ancestors knew?

It's an interesting question in and of itself. I'm willing to listen and discuss the topic. I'll start a new thread in the Archeology Forum to continue this conversation if you want to talk about the first Americans. -- I would normally just ask AD to start the thread for us, LOL, BUT that didn't work out to well the last time AD edited and started a new thread!
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby mavn » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:09 am

Yes, I think it would make for a very interesting thread - Go for it!
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Re:

Postby Nemo » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:25 am

Zep Tepi wrote:Another good article Ochre :)
The Dogon / Sirius connection had always fascinated me and I must say I was extremely disappointed when I first read about it being a hoax :(

Cheers,
Zep


Ditto, "very worrying" as they said. This one I found very interesting because of all the supporting facts. I didn't really follow or think "proved" the connection with Greeks and Egyptians but I found the supposed stories of amphibious aliens who breathed through their clavicles and the amazing description of the appearance, descent, and landing of the ship and how it later walked or was pulled to a nearby pond very compelling. How could the Dogon have made this up I thought? So, was all of that made up? There is no mention of it at all in the article. I don't care about the Egyptian connection.

You either rely on someone who knows the secret details of the Dogon stories and religion or you start your own expedition, ingratiate yourself into the tribe for 10 years, marry 10 of their women and somhow get inducted into their inner sanctum. I imagine that involves painful scarification rituals and eating food that might not be too good for my constitution. I'm out.

I read something years ago about their houses and how they fit into their religious beliefs. If I recall correctly, to them the house is laid out like an organism. It has a mouth for an entrance ans various spaces within that are functional and which have a symbolic meaning. I found this so strange, culturally advanced, very conceptual, and compelling that I could see them having been influenced by some advanced culture in the past.

Or not.

The story of the Dropos I always found to sound so strange and fragmentary that I was never interested in it. It was also illustrated with a plainly modern hoax painting of some ancient looking astronaut in Von Danikens' book, as I recall from my Middle School reading.
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby Nemo » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:40 am

There is a place called "Spirit Mound" in Iowa. Lewis and Clark wrote about it. The local Indians feared it and believed that small creatures thought to be devil's lived within and at night would come out and torment and sometimes take people away. That would be interesting to look into.

I also used to have a book about Irish Ghost stories. This was written in the 60's or 70's I think, before Strieber, the Greys' etc. In it I was kind of amazed by one story in which the Lord of the Manor (or whatever) kept finding a strange woman at his door. She had huge dark slanting eyes small facial features and a pointed chin. The story also described how she was dressed and her strange behaviors. I have the impression that she may have also communicated with him in some strange way (telepathy?) and that she was quite mysterious and enigmatic. She may have wanted him to go away with her. I was surprised at the parallels with what we would call a "Grey" (if they even exist). I got rid of the book years ago but would like to go over that story again if I could locate one.

And there are the Hopi's too.

Recent genetic studies show that the Ojibway and Algonquin Indians have a haplotype that is from Europe. Today it is only found in European populations and it is NOT present in these Native American populations from when we think it would be, it goes back very far.
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby Nemo » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:48 am

“Possible triangular craft with retroflares
Figure inside - Beings Below
Left of the ship 4 entities”


That's the first yield sign. Not as amazing but still important.
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Re: The Dogons and The Sirius Mystery

Postby ryguy » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:00 pm

Nemo wrote:There is a place called "Spirit Mound" in Iowa. Lewis and Clark wrote about it. The local Indians feared it and believed that small creatures thought to be devil's lived within and at night would come out and torment and sometimes take people away. That would be interesting to look into.


That is something I would love to research in the field, in person. I wish Iowa was a tad closer!

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