"Fastwalkers" Article? (was: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT)

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"Fastwalkers" Article? (was: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT)

Postby caleban » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:12 pm

[Mod Edit: The following off topic discussion began with this post and was moved here]

"Someone needs to write an article informating the public about the true story behind "Fastwalkers" = ryguy

Been there....done that. Based upon reactions in "private mail" to such an article,
let people keep some of their fantasies. They will do that anyway. (Exception made for
l_s and torbjon, but they do not represent the expected public viewpoint.)
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby ryguy » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:19 pm

caleban wrote:"Someone needs to write an article informating the public about the true story behind "Fastwalkers" = ryguy

Been there....done that. Based upon reactions in "private mail" to such an article,
let people keep some of their fantasies. They will do that anyway. (Exception made for
l_s and torbjon, but they do not represent the expected public viewpoint.)


You've written a public article on Fastwalkers? Cool...could you provide a link and/or publication?

Thanks,
-Ryan
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby caleban » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:25 am

"You've written a public article on Fastwalkers? Cool...could you provide a link and/or publication?"=ryguy

No. An rough, early draft attempt for such an article was sent by me to some personal acquaintances.
(Five of those are currently members of this forum, not including myself.)

While the rough draft was genuine, the purpose of obtaining private reactions to the draft had nothing to
do with publication. Nor did I intend it for that. (Besides, it would need a lot of work.)

I am also convinced that informing the public "against" popular mythology is a zero-sum game. Nevertheless,
I still follow the RU experiments in this area with some interest.
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby ryguy » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:11 pm

caleban wrote:I am also convinced that informing the public "against" popular mythology is a zero-sum game. Nevertheless,
I still follow the RU experiments in this area with some interest.


Oh right...an armchair quarterback.

Well I'm glad you're following along - I certainly appreciate your occasional feedback. This medium is horrible for getting to know new people, and I'm sure you don't intend your posts to come across as they do, but unfortunately, how a person writes doesn't always reflect who they really are.

As I'm sure you can guess, I disagree quite strongly that educating the public is a zero-sum game. If that were the case, the original "mythology" never would have successfully gotten off the ground in the first place. You give the folks who created the core story far too much credit, and unfortunately those who are organizing against it not enough.

I hope you aren't referring to any of the admins in your comment above regarding your draft of an article - I don't recall ever receiving a story from anyone about Fastwalkers. The only story I ever received recently was about the Roswell Museum in NM. Had I ever received an article on Fastwalkers, I'd be all over that like Hal Puthoff on a delusional investor.

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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby Access Denied » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:42 pm

For what’s it worth I was one of the recipients of Caleban’s rough draft before I became a staff member here. It contains some good technical background on the origin of the term “fast walker” that many folks are probably not aware of, especially if they haven’t read the above mentioned book, but I don’t recall him delving into the specifics of the 1984 event in question. That’s already in the public domain except of course the name of the source who originally leaked the information to the UFO community.

If Caleban would like to submit his draft to us for publication, or as part of a more comprehensive article covering the 1984 event, that would be great.

I would tend to agree with him though in some respects… the snake oil salesman will continue to hawk [lol] their wares and folks will continue to buy them despite the fact the "foundations" of their “cosmic conspiracy” have already been thoroughly debunked. Just look at Roswell… the Air Force has already tried to explain to folks it was just a “weather balloon” twice… the first time was 60 years ago, then again nearly 50 years later.

That said, although it’s a dirty job, I still feel somebody’s got to do it…
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby caleban » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:08 am

"I'm sure you don't intend your posts to come across as they do"=ryguy

Please explain how they come across to you. Examples would also be good
feedback. (While not apparent, this exercise may be far more on topic
in here than you realize.)

Thank you, AD. This time around you get top marks in the ethics of dealing
with private mail in the forum environment. (This is RU post 94 for me. If this
remark creates a puzzle, see my RU post 90.)
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby ryguy » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:36 pm

caleban wrote:Please explain how they come across to you. Examples would also be good
feedback. (While not apparent, this exercise may be far more on topic
in here than you realize.)


Sorry - I don't take part in other people's experiments. Not knowingly, and certainly not willingly anyway.

Good luck with that.

**edit: Okay...after thinking about it, I'll provide an example for you.

While the rough draft was genuine, the purpose of obtaining private reactions to the draft had nothing to
do with publication. Nor did I intend it for that. (Besides, it would need a lot of work.)


That immediately triggered an red alert, in my mind, that what we are dealing with here is an arrogant personality who is willing to manipulate others simply to obtain "reactions." Not cool. I was sensing the "arrogant" thing in earlier posts, but I assumed it was just a misinterpretation on my part. Plus - who am I to judge, I come across as arrogant very often, when I don't mean to. But your comment above immediately made your personality as clear as day and verified my previous impressions, unfortunately.

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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby caleban » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:13 am

"I'll provide an example for you."

Thank you.
You seem to have a "sense" for manipulation, so my apology for pulling out a correlation. I did
not expect the example you selected. I expected you to pick the obvious, and most powerful
"arrogant" trigger, which is the "opening" remark in the first post of this interchange. I.E.
"Been there....done that. "...... Inherent arrogance, personified. Never mind that it is "cool" slang
in the public eye. Who says being arrogant aint cool ? Oh, yeah, you just did.

Quick topic change: I also said "this exercise may be far more on topic in here than you realize".
You provided me an example, so I am willing to provide you with one also. I have no knowledge,
other than this thread and other references here as to the "Major Update". I do believe you are looking
into various "hoaxters", "pranksters", whatever term one wishes in the area of "scamming" the public,
and that your motivation is to expose the scams. The moral high ground, so to speak. "Good on ya, mate."
In fact, I am attempting to hold a mirror up to the example you provided me to expose the hidden vampire
(danger) in the leap you made with me. Such leaps, if present in this Update, would be a disaster.

For the purpose of an example, lets say this is a quote from a "hoaxter" in a scam article exposure:

While the rough draft was genuine, the purpose of obtaining private reactions to the draft had nothing to
do with publication. Nor did I intend it for that. (Besides, it would need a lot of work.)


"That immediately triggered an red alert, in my mind, that what we are dealing with here is an arrogant
personality who is willing to manipulate others simply to obtain "reactions." Not cool. "

How did you leap across THAT pond ? Now that would be the "cool" part.

"I was sensing the "arrogant" thing in earlier posts, but I assumed it was just a misinterpretation on my part.
Plus - who am I to judge, I come across as arrogant very often, when I don't mean to."

Even more troubling, the leap across the pond was "past" tense. How did you get there back then? Pushing the
question into the past may aid chronology, but the question remains.

"But your comment above immediately made your personality as clear as day and verified my
previous impressions, unfortunately."

Wow ! I couldn't even make this kind of stuff up. You missed your calling. A complete personality
analysis using only two sentences, and of course "previous impressions". And from the same
person who just stated: "This medium is horrible for getting to know new people".

End of example.

The point of this exercise is that if you place in a scam exposure any of the assumptions so easily
exampled above, and write them as conclusions, as most will read them to be, expect the worst.

Further, where I used "exercise" you replaced it with "experiment". Where I used the phrase
"informing the public", you replaced it with "educating the public" to generate a disagreement
where there is none. And so on.

You may have a "sense" for the tactics of scammers, but using their own tactics against them
is not recommended.
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:19 am

caleban wrote:The point of this exercise is that if you place in a scam exposure any of the assumptions so easily exampled above, and write them as conclusions, as most will read them to be, expect the worst.

Thanks for the advice Caleban but has it occurred to you one of the reasons Steve and Ryan are taking so long with this (much longer than anticipated) is to try and avoid writing anything that could be perceived as assumptions or premature conclusions?

[unlike some people we know]

If you’ve got something relevant to add to the investigation nobody’s stopping you… your contribution (or lack thereof) will speak for itself.

caleban wrote:You may have a "sense" for the tactics of scammers, but using their own tactics against them is not recommended.

Again, thanks for the advice but I’m pretty sure Steve and Ryan don’t need it… and they have better things to do then trying to decipher these bizarre psychobabble “exercises” of yours.

[scratches head]

I’m sorry but if you want to continue this discussion about people’s perception of you or whatever, take it to Chit Chat or the Latrine.
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby ryguy » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:34 pm

Thanks AD, and in respect for your moderation, I'm only going to respond to what's relevant to this thread.

There is a significant difference, Caleban, between someone saying "been there, done that," but not being willing to publicly put their money where their mouth is....and three guys running a very public effort at hoaxbusting, and consistently releasing articles (with our real names attached, mind you), such as these "major updates", which serve to report the evidence and facts that we've uncovered (a.k.a. - the truth), to the public.

I suspect that you appreciate the difference. Hence my "armchair quarterback" comment. Have a look, below, at a list of people who didn't only say they've "been there, done that," but they actually proved it.

Best regards,
-Ryan

Examples of putting your money where your mouth is:
Ryan: Example 1
Torb: Example 2
Steve: Example 3
Mike J: Example 4
Colin Bennett: Example 5
Ex-mod "Max": Example 6
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby caleban » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:44 am

"People you perceive as enemies are not always against you.......and
people you perceive as friends are not always trying to help you." = moral of an old joke.

Examples of putting your money where your mouth is:


I think that is a terrible way to refer to the quality of the examples you have referenced.
It comes across as an elitist slap at anyone who for whatever reason can not, will not,
or is uncertain about joining the "club". It may even filter out a lot of the talent that is
out there. (Both of us have the information to know from April, last, that the implication
of that comment is not directed towards me, thus it must be to non-"club" member applicants.)

Each of those articles are of excellent professional quality and very well done. While
I had not seen the recent ones, I am familiar with the forum discussions relating to
them. As of this writing, the first three examples redirect to the appropriate discussion
forum area. The last three do not. (50 percent) I would think that you, of all members here,
would understand the importance of consistant chronology in publication. Again, there appears
to be inconsistant or lack of chronology in 50 percent of the examples you cited.

1. 9th August 2008
2. ???
3. 27th June 2008
4. 10th May 2008 ??
5. July, 2007 for UFO Magazine
6. ???

As a reader, these examples are different from the expectation advertised
in this topic area. Yes, there is Example one, but it stands on its own merit
without the expectations cultivated in here.

(topic diversion)

As the old media dies, the new one evolves. Todays example:
http://cbs2chicago.com/sports/jay.mario ... 03995.html

Media presentation does not stop with cute artwork. It really seems to just begin there.
Organization is next. One reason I had not seen your recent examples is that I
tend to bypass the home page. It appears dull and does not catch my eye for
new additions. I am making no suggestions there, only observing my reaction to it.
It does not look like a news page, which would be something I would wade thru,
or a magazine style emphasis of articles at a single glance.

How hard would it be to have a designated (organized) discussion area for your articles ?
The last three examples, per above, bounce you to the generic forum board.
So "Where's the beef?"
The first three land you somewhere, but where is the "You are Here" pointer ?

(return)

Some highlights:
Example one either has an very intriguing mispelling error or has introduced a new term I have
not seen before. "FasWalker" ???
Example two is especially interesting to those who were there. And the author appears
to be someone who could write a book on the ethics of this stuff. The trick is how
to measure ethics?
Example three suggests to me a "yardstick" guide for measuring press coverage of
such events.
Example four is a good template for how to write about the really strange stuff. I have
followed the author's postings a bit but the article is much more organized for those who
lack any familiarity with the topic. I need to read the whole set as now posted in the
proper chronology.
Example five is wide open. Excellent. Interpretive. Imagination-interactive.
Example six is "real" with a capital "R". It shares the plot line of the 1998 movie
"Pentagon Wars", which I think the author would very much enjoy if he has not
seen it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

"bizarre psychobabble" indeed: neither friend nor foe but competitors in a strange
place. the view of the asylum from the outside is very different from the inside, the
"inmate" point of view. the cream on green-trim colors past the vacant area with the
cellophane and tinfoil carpeting to the silver door with no handle. This Better , AD?
......since I believe it to be a sample of the "real-deal" .
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby ryguy » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:58 pm

We're talking about backing up your own words "Been there, done that," with proof.

I don't believe that typos, or where articles point to in the forum, are relevant. The point was that each author was willing to back up the statement "been there, done that," for each particular topic. It appears, to me at least, that you're trying to change the subject.

While I'm sure the authors will appreciate your analysis about each article...that wasn't the point.

You don't need to "join" any club, but if you claim to know something - well then you better be prepared to back it up. You don't need to write an article here - but at least have the ability to point to something, somewhere that you produced, that proves that you actually know what you claim to know. Otherwise...how do people know that's it's not just lip-service from a pseudo-intellectual?

My personal opinion is that if someone is willing to step up and say "been there, done that," then saying that it isn't "worth the effort" to prove it appears more of a cop-out than anything else.

For what it's worth - I personally think that the countless hours that Steve spent designing and editing the content for the main page were well worth the effort - and there's nothing "boring" about the main page. Steve's work deserves a hell of a lot more credit that that kind of b.s. dismissal... Again, do you have a website that you've personally created, that you can point to, that certifies you as some kind of an expert in web design and formatting?

-Ry
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:27 pm

Thanks for pointing out the attempted deflection Ryan, I too wondered about the "been there, done that" comment and was looking forward to seeing an example of it in the Fastwalker case. Shame there doesn't appear to be one.

As for some links pointing to the forum and not a specific section of the forum, I will change them to point to the specific discussion regarding the article in question - if one is present. I'm sorry you find the main page "boring" Caleban, it is after all just a list of articles published at the site with some commentary thrown in. What did you want, dancing girls? You may have noticed there is a "Subscribe" link on the main site. If you subscribe to the feed, you will be notified whenever the site is updated without having to go to the main page at all.
As for the "where is the you are here pointer", was that supposed to be a joke? I expect the majority of users who use this site to know what a navigation menu is and how to use it, if you need any help with that just let me know ;)

Cheers,
Steve
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby caleban » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:05 am

"We're talking about backing up your own words "Been there, done that," with proof."

Apology, I thought you were changing the subject with examples of others who have said that,
since the proof is already in here.

"My personal opinion is that if someone is willing to step up and say "been there, done that," then saying that
it isn't "worth the effort" to prove it appears more of a cop-out than anything else."

Well stated. Your words, not mine. So who is "someone" ? My earlier posts are short and easy to search.

"Thanks for pointing out the attempted deflection Ryan, I too wondered about the "been there, done that"
comment and was looking forward to seeing an example of it in the Fastwalker case. Shame there doesn't appear to be one."

The apparent possibilities I see here seem improbable. But what do I know....this poor psuedo-intellectual bozo ?
If you read the statement as a claim, the operating word is "done", not "know". The real shame would be if either
of the possibilities below were true in this instance:

The first possibility is that the admins here do not read each others posts. A second possibility is that two
of the admins here do not believe the testimony of the third admin.

For what’s it worth I was one of the recipients of Caleban’s rough draft before I became a staff member here. It contains some good technical background on the origin of the term “fast walker” that many folks are probably not aware of, especially if they haven’t read the above mentioned book, but I don’t recall him delving into the specifics of the 1984 event in question.


That is a credible, eye witness testimony from the third RU admin. Unless you can refute or counter that testimony, it stands as legal proof.


P.S. " I'm sorry you find the main page "boring" Caleban"

And I am sorry you see the word "dull" as meaning boring. Quite the contrary, if you do not blow
past the non-eye catching, lackluster, same-ol...same-ol textual nature of the page compared to
the commonality with other sites, then I agree with you. Dancing girls over the most recent articles,
while humorous, would work , I think. IMHPIBO. (In my humble Psuedo-intellectual bozo opinion.)
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Re: MAJOR UPDATE IMMINENT

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:37 am

Caleban, the point is what you claim you’ve “done” and “know” doesn’t matter if you’re not willing to go on the record and share your story with the public at large and allow them to question you and your credentials directly. Using me as a proxy ain’t going to cut it… ultimately it’s unsubstantiated hearsay.

What difference does me being an admin here make? Would people be more likely to believe you if the President of the United States endorsed your story?

In the (very small) world of UFOlogy (and CT in general) “credibility” is established simply by telling people what they want to hear… not what they don’t… regardless of whether or not that “testimony” can be backed with up evidence. How many times have we heard “My trusted anonymous source said…”?

This is the same technique the hoaxers and charlatans use and I don’t want any part of it. I’ve already been down that road…

Roswell explained? Potential NEW evidence!

It’s time for you to put up or shut up.
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