Shawnna's Last - A Lear Discussion

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Moderators: ryguy, Zep Tepi

Postby ryguy » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:20 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:My assessment is that she cannot pass this test- that there is a certain stink clinging to everything she has ever posted here- from her inane interview with Alfred Webre to her attack on ATS.

My only question to Steve and Ryan is: why did it take you so long???????


Toon - emotions aside, I disagree. Everything you condemn Shawnna for was a group action with valid team motives behind it. We agreed on each move and collaborated together with everything. When you slam Shawnna for it, you slam us all.

The recent disagreements have come about from a more current rift in our research methods that have little to nothing to do with the past, but where we've each progressed to as researchers, the importance we place on the cohesiveness of RU research as opposed to individual research, and how we collaborate together. Essentially, lately, it just hasn't worked.

I won't join you in slamming the past work Shawnna has done with us because it's not true. Would she pass the test - investigatively done to her as she's done to others? Of course she would. She has no convictions of presenting inappropriate material to children - in fact she has no criminal history at all, she has never published a hoax anywhere ever, and she has never made up fake documents or threatened people with fake documents, as we've seen done against us.

It isn't cool to kick people when they're down - and regardless of our disagreements neither Shawnna nor Hiddenhand deserve that. I would still defend them regarding all of their investigative successes before this disagreement - and only someone who truly lacks integrity would turn on friends (even ex-friends) and fail to defend them from unfair attack simply because of a disagreement. Truth is still truth and needs to be defended.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:12 am

Ryan, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

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Postby Shawnna » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:41 am

On January 13, 2007, Zep wrote that he had changed HH's mod status but he was not banned.

Image


And sometime between my post last night and now, a "Mod" edited out my post saying I was trying to bypass HH's ban.


:roll:


Shawnna wrote:
{snip}

HH has asked me to share this with you both.

[Mod Edit - bypassing HH's ban is not permitted.]




First he says HH is not banned, then he says I am trying to bypass HH's ban.


:roll:


Zep also says that what happens on other forums is no concern of his (or RU's):

Zep Tepi wrote:
{snip}

One thing I found extremely enlightening was the fact then when I had mentioned for the umpteenth time that nothing that happens with how ATS is run is of of any relevance whatsoever to what happens here..............




Which is odd considering that the entire impetus behind his creation of Reality Uncovered was what appeared on another website - Serpo.org


And.......


Zep certainly had no problem with this RU thread titled "Lucianarchy Uncovered" who happens to be the owner of another forum.


And......


Zep has also taken exception to what Bill and Kerry are doing with another website - Project Camelot.


Now, to me, it appears to be either hypocrisy, a double standard or for some reason, Zep doesn't want anyone pointing out the inconsistency with respect to ATS trying to brand themselves as "Altruism + Trust + Sincerity.


:roll:
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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:41 am

Wow, yet more drama eh Shawnna? It seems you can't get enough of it.

Shawnna wrote:Zep also says that what happens on other forums is no concern of his (or RU's):


Shawnna wrote:Which is odd considering that the entire impetus behind his creation of Reality Uncovered was what appeared on another website - Serpo.org


Serpo.org is a website, not a forum. If you are going to try and hit me with my own words, please make sure it makes sense first, ok?

Oh and btw, are you seriously suggesting RU should not have investigated the one website where ALL of the relevant Serpo information has been posted??? :roll:

Shawnna wrote:And.......


Zep certainly had no problem with this RU thread titled "Lucianarchy Uncovered" who happens to be the owner of another forum.


You're right, he certainly didn't :)

OM isn't actually just "another" forum though, is it Shawnna? I am surprised you have already forgotten the history and the relevance of reporting on things that were said and implied over there, I really am. Especially so as everything we reported on was relevant to RU. :roll:

We also had evidence to support everything we said, evidence that everyone agreed on. How you can make a comparison between the Luci thread and your recent escapades is beyond my comprehension.

Shawnna wrote:And......


Zep has also taken exception to what Bill and Kerry are doing with another website - Project Camelot.


What an utterly outrageous thing to say, especially seeing as it has been YOU that led the charge in trying to discredit that particular website! One only has to look through the threads here, and especially at ATS where you have attacked that website at every single opportunity!

Someone needs to give you some advice Shawnna, I don't know what it is but something is interfering with how you have perceived things recently :(

One other thing:
Shawnna wrote:Now, to me, it appears to be either hypocrisy, a double standard or for some reason, Zep doesn't want anyone pointing out the inconsistency with respect to ATS trying to brand themselves as "Altruism + Trust + Sincerity.


How many more times? I don't care!!

How arrogant would that be for me to try and tell someone else how to run their own website??? ATS can do whatever they like, whenever they like and however they like. It is none of my GD business unless it directly impacts on matters here at RU.

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Postby Shawnna » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:55 am

:sigh:


Sometimes it is very hard to see the hypocrisy within ourselves.


My post was quite clear with accurate illustrations of your hypocrisy, or double standard, whatever you prefer.

Oh, and here's another one. 'Shawnna's free to post whatever she wants'.

You forgot to add the RU qualifier there - 'as long as it doesn't result in multiple PM's and emails from the 3 Amigos and other members and non-members complaining because my ego depends on their acceptance - which is more important than standing up for my partner'.


I have been quite consistent with respect to exposing the liars and hoaxers - it is you who has chosen to make an issue about my wanting to expose ATS's b.s. attempt at branding themselves as "Altruism + Trust + Sincerity".


:roll:


Zep Tepi wrote:Oh and btw, are you seriously suggesting RU should not have investigated the one website where ALL of the relevant Serpo information has been posted???



Not at all.

I am seriously suggesting that RU should investigate ALL entities possibly complicit with Serpo - including ATS.

:P

Given the time we've spent together, and the effort I have gone to to demonstrate my commitment and loyalty to RU and my personal caring and love for you and your family, it hurts to realize how blind I was.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:31 am

Shawnna wrote::sigh:


Sometimes it is very hard to see the hypocrisy within ourselves.


I agree with that sentiment 100%.

My post was quite clear with accurate illustrations of your hypocrisy, or double standard, whatever you prefer.


No it wasn't Shawnna. I replied to that particular accusation above and showed why there is no hypocrisy nor double standards. I tried to make it as plain as I could.

Oh, and here's another one. 'Shawnna's free to post whatever she wants'.


Context is absolutely everything and you have continously ignored it. I made that statement in two different places, one in private and one in public. You continued with your accusations and inflammatory demeanour even after you had publicly apologised! I didn't intervene beforehand even though I wasn't happy with the way the whole thing was being conducted. The straw that broke this camels back came afterwards.

My post in the private thread was as sfollows:
Zep Tepi wrote:Like I said in the public thread - you are free to post whatever you wish.

The fact that we collaborate and share information before ultimately publishing anything has thus far acted as a safety mechanism. That safety net is no longer applicable in this instance, seeing as everything is already out there anyway.

So no, you don't have to post anything in here. This particular story has now taken on a life of it's own and who am I to stand in it's way?

Whetever the upshot of this "investigation" may be, it already has taken on the appearance and traits of a witchhunt. It's almost as if anything will do, as long it can be used against ATS.

Cheers,
Zep


You may detect a hint of sarcasm and anger in that above post.It is pretty clear where I stood and why.

You forgot to add the RU qualifier there - 'as long as it doesn't result in multiple PM's and emails from the 3 Amigos and other members and non-members complaining because my ego depends on their acceptance - which is more important than standing up for my partner'.


Yeah ok then :roll:
Throughout this whole mess the only person you thought about was yourself and what you "knew" to be true. You didn't listen to a single thing I said. I tried so hard to stop you from making yourself and making the site look stupid. I was trying to protect you from this. Your subsequent posts and especially the bizarre posts tonight show me there was absolutely nothing I could have done to protect you. :(

I have been quite consistent with respect to exposing the liars and hoaxers - it is you who has chosen to make an issue about my wanting to expose ATS's b.s. attempt at branding themselves as "Altruism + Trust + Sincerity".


:roll:

Given the time we've spent together, and the effort I have gone to to demonstrate my commitment and loyalty to RU and my personal caring and love for you and your family, it hurts to realize how blind I was.


Ditto.

I wish there was some way I could get through to you. I tried earlier tonight with an email, please read it.

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Postby Access Denied » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:08 am

Zep Tepi wrote:Throughout this whole mess the only person you thought about was yourself and what you "knew" to be true.

So tell me how do you "know" this not to be true...

I have been quite consistent with respect to exposing the liars and hoaxers - it is you who has chosen to make an issue about my wanting to expose ATS's b.s. attempt at branding themselves as "Altruism + Trust + Sincerity".


For example, care to explain what you think happened in my case based on the limited evidence I was allowed to post in the other thread before it was shut down? I posted not one but three examples of the 3 Amigos contradicting themselves in public. Are you going to explain that for them? Might as well since they couldn't/wouldn't.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:39 pm

For example, care to explain what you think happened in my case based on the limited evidence I was allowed to post in the other thread before it was shut down? I posted not one but three examples of the 3 Amigos contradicting themselves in public. Are you going to explain that for them? Might as well since they couldn't/wouldn't.


Mind if I ask why you consider it Zep's responsibility to mediate a pissing contest that doesn't concern him? If you've got a problem with ATS talk to Springer. OK?
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Postby Access Denied » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:18 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Mind if I ask why you consider it Zep's responsibility to mediate a pissing contest that doesn't concern him? If you've got a problem with ATS talk to Springer. OK?

What makes you think “brother” Springer will talk to me now considering he has banned me from ATS twice, ignored ALL my emails in the past, and his partner sent me this threatening email back in November…

Tom,

Would you please stop contacting us.

You are becoming extremely annoying and we have no interest in speaking with you. Your persistent attempts to try and persuade us to host your images is not going to work.

If you do not refrain from doing so IMMEDIATELY, I will have no choice but to contact your ISP and webmail provider and raise a complaint, and advise them to block you from our servers.

(As for your link, it isn't to an MSNBC article, but to a web blog. We regularly have coverage/citation on major websites including BBC and CNN, and I have had commentary posted on MSNBC myself, so please don't try to woo us with such obscure links no one will likely find anyway.)

Simon Gray

Now may I ask you why ATS wouldn’t be interested in hosting an image that refutes the claim made by John Lear that is the basis of one of the most popular threads in ATS history?

(By the way, just so you know, when the above threat was made I hadn’t contacted Simon in over a month and the “blog” in question is none other than MSNBC Science Editor Alan Boyle’s “Cosmic Log” and thousands of folks were able to “find” it.)
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Postby ryguy » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:35 pm

Access Denied wrote:So tell me how do you "know" this not to be true...


I don't recall him saying he "knew" whether it was true or not. That's the difference.

For example, care to explain what you think happened in my case based on the limited evidence I was allowed to post in the other thread before it was shut down? I posted not one but three examples of the 3 Amigos contradicting themselves in public. Are you going to explain that for them? Might as well since they couldn't/wouldn't.


I'll give it a shot. You tried to present what you considered to be extremely important and exclusive evidence (re: John Lear) to ATS. They didn't consider your evidence very exclusive or very important, so you were offended. Also the fact that a thread of yours was accidentally deleted - accidental for real? Who knows...we have no evidence to go on except Simon's word it was an accident and your word that the Roswell evidence was possibly relevant and important. Haven't seen anything to show there was even anything important in there either.

You had ample opportunity to post your evidence in Shawnna's first thread, as well as the second. You've posted more in this resulting argument, and much more often, than you bothered to post in those two threads. So you could have simply presented it all (why did you limit what you posted if it proves so much against ATS?)

As far as the evidence you posted about them contradicting themselves - as you've seen by Shawnna and Steve's argument above, when phrases and sentences are quoted out of context - anyone's words can be made to appear contradictory. Do you remember something you might have told someone a week, two weeks, or a month ago - that you might be contradicting yourself with your words this very moment?

Springer said one thing about repairing the thread, S.O. said another. And maybe later either guy contradicted themselves when they realized the thread was permenantly gone and unrecoverable. Could they be lying? Sure - why not. Could they be telling the truth? Sure - why not. In either case, does a deleted Roswell thread and a disagreement over Nasa photos require we air your grievances with ATS?

The only case I would agree that it does require we (RU) take part is if a link can be provided with strong supporting evidence that those actions of ATS are directly linked to one of the existing hoaxes we are currently investigating.

No such solid link has been shown with any veridical evidence - therefore, as Steve has repeated many times, it has no relevance here. Shawnna might see significance with the fact that ATS hosted the largest discussion on the topic of Serpo. ATS had a high level member who hoaxed a fake ATS email to Bill Ryan. Springer and S.O. at times had a very strong interest in Serpo, and other loose circumstantial evidence suggests loose and unconfirmed "possible" connections. About as possible as Jerry Pippen being involved in the creation of Serpo. Or Dan Smith. Circumstantial evidence doesn't carry water when you're trying to confirm the truth. It is the evidence of an existence of such a link to any hoax where I believe Shawnna and Steve have butted heads since the beginning. That doesn't mean we won't do our best to follow up on any and all strong leads, even if they point toward ATS. But it does mean that we consider this particular circumstantial lead to go nowhere.

I apologize for any of my recent harsh words toward you AD - I have nothing against you and nothing against Shawnna at this point. Definitely nothing against Hidden Hand. All of us have never backed down from a fight. HH emailed us last night with one of the most mature and level-headed emails in which he said he will be the first to back down. He has earned my utmost respect and in my eyes he's proven to be the one member of the team who, in the heat of the moment, has shown himself to be a true class act.

My hat's off to you HH - and I will follow suit. This is a fight I have no problem backing down from. AD - you and Shawnna, and your team, may be successful in uncovering that veridical evidence that proves a solid link. Maybe you already have, but have yet to publish it. Either way, I wish you luck with your investigation.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:24 am

Access Denied wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:Mind if I ask why you consider it Zep's responsibility to mediate a pissing contest that doesn't concern him? If you've got a problem with ATS talk to Springer. OK?

What makes you think “brother” Springer will talk to me now considering he has banned me from ATS twice, ignored ALL my emails in the past, and his partner sent me this threatening email back in November…


yeah, yeah... so the brother won't talk to ya. can't say i blame him considering the company you keep. but what does brother zep have to do with it?
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Postby Hydden » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:55 pm

I've stayed out of this just to see where it would lead....as I usually do.
I'm more of a watcher.

The thing I've seen with Shawnna, since over a year ago, is that she *is* a good investigator, to a point. The problem, I think, is that she hit the nail on the head a couple of times and it's boosted her ego to where everything she touches now has to be correct (in her eyes). I've also seen her skim information and get things skewed so many times that I just don't feel like writing a whole page to explain it to her...usually someone else will, and then the fight ensues and turns into things like this. Quotes are clipped - context is shot to hell - and in the end, it's all apologies made.

I think RU did the right thing by letting her go. Yes, she quit on her own, but they let her and that's probably best for all parties.

The thing Shawnna needs to learn from this is the same thing that all journalists and reporters have been taught for ages. Get all your facts straight before you go telling your story. And I'm talking iron-clad. If just one little piece of your story was untrue, your whole "theory" falls flat and makes you look incompetent. And that's what I think happened here.

When reporting, you need to have everything, and I mean everything, set into place and ready to back up anything that goes against your claim..... ESPECIALLY on the internet. (see the Duncan story, the Serpo story, etc)
Then, when you're ready, post your story and let the trollers troll. If your evidence is strong and factual, and can be backed up with evidence or proof, then there's nothing to worry about and the refuters will only hang themselves with every word they post. That didn't happen with this story. (and still hasn't. I say if there's proof of this story, it should've been brought forth a long time ago instead of all this name-calling and backlashing - but apparently, that proof does not exist)

The big mistake she made, in my opinion, was attacking ATS itself instead of objectively looking at the claims from both sides and presenting it in a professional manner for all to discuss, not standing at the bottom of the tree and barking at the squirrel you see up there. If a real reporter had done this to any kind of professional company, there would be law suits flying right now from all the libel and slander going on with lack of proof. Again, if you have the facts and evidence, you could easily just saw the tree down and no one would be able to argue with you......because they wouldn't be able to.

Anyway, good luck to Shawnna - whatever she decides to do next - just take it a little slower and do a little more research on both sides before you post your claims. I don't know what happened to HH so I won't comment on that but, best of luck to you as well.

Zep - good dignity shown
Ry - good sense shown (a little on-the-fence at times, but understood)

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Postby Shawnna » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:01 pm

Thank you, Hydden. Very well stated and accurate - to a point.

What got lost in this whole discussion was the original intent of my original ATS post in the "Chit Chat" section of this discussion forum.

For the record - my intent was to demonstrate that ATS=Altruism+Trust+Sincerity is, at best, spin in the finest fashion. My opinion was just that - MY OPINION.

This was NOT an investigative report.


:shakeshead:


This whole situation clearly illustrates how ineffective a discussion forum environment can be when posts -which by their very nature are opinions - are confused as investigative analysis.

:roll:


As always, my one and only objective in joining RU in the first place was to uncover, and publish, the reality of who is pulling the strings behind the Serpo story. Significant circumstantial evidence has been acquired to do just that. However, given what I've seen behind the scenes here - it won't be published any time soon.

My commitment to this objective has never changed. At some point - 100% of the facts behind all of this will be published - with all supporting evidence.

It would be helpful for you, Hydden, to keep in mind the difference between an investigative report, versus a discussion forum opinion post.

I do appreciate your feedback.

Always,
Shawnna
Last edited by Shawnna on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:39 pm

Shawnna wrote:Thank you, Hydden. Very well stated and accurate - to a point.


I'd like to echo that, thank you very much for your insightful post :)

What got lost in this whole discussion was the original intent of my original ATS post in the "Chit Chat" section of this discussion forum.

For the record - my intent was to demonstrate that ATS=Altruism+Trust+Sincerity is, at best, spin in the finest fashion. My opinion was just that - MY OPINION.

This was NOT an investigative report.


No one ever said it was? Funny thing is though, I've just looked back and counted how many times you have used the term "investigation", in both the public and private threads. You might want to do the same thing yourself - as well as actually reading your own posts on the subject.

The forum where the posts appeared is neither here nor there. It was a public forum meant for public consumption.

This whole situation clearly illustrates how ineffective a discussion forum environment can be when posts -which by their very nature are opinions - are confused as investigative analysis.


I agree, especially so when one looks at exactly how such opinions were presented.

As always, my one and only objective in joining RU in the first place was to uncover the reality of who is pulling the strings behind the Serpo story. That has NOT happened - and in fact - given what I've seen behind the scenes here - I doubt it will.


That actually made me laugh out loud.
You wanted to do the same thing with Serpo as you have done with ATS, that is present unsubstantiated information and simply go on the offensive without looking further into it and stuff the consequences.

That's not how we operate and you know it.

My commitment to this objective has never changed. At some point - 100% of the facts behind all of this will be published - with supporting evidence.


That's exactly what we have been doing from day one. It was when this stopped that the cracks appeared. Those cracks turned into a chasm and all of a sudden we have a fully fledged circus on our hands.

It would be helpful for you, Hydden, to keep in mind the difference between an investigative report, versus a discussion forum opinion post.


It would have been extremely helpful if you yourself had kept in mind the difference between being a member of RU, versus a partner of RU.

Your actions recently did not serve the interests of this site or anything it stands for.

No further discussion on this subject will be accepted. Nothing is being achieved other than raking over the same points in one long neverending regurgitation of the facts. You have ignored many of the relevant points that have been made and it appears your only continued objective here at RU is to stir up unrest and cause a fuss. That will no longer be tolerated.

I offer you the courtesy of a final post in this thread before it will be locked.

The original ATS thread will be merged with the posts that were moved to the disciplinary section of the forum and reinstated, before being locked and moved here, so that everyone can see the facts and decide for themselves what went on.

Cheers,
Zep
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:36 am

"I say if there's proof of this story, it should've been brought forth a long time ago instead of all this name-calling and backlashing - but apparently, that proof does not exist)" == Hydden

No proof? The proof is the email I posted from Simon. They saw the evidence that proves a hoax and they refused it! And there’s no denying the Roswell thread was deleted and if it was an “accident” why didn’t they make every effort to restore it? Besides, does anyone who has any experience as a board admin really buy the excuse that deleting all my posts and threads only took a single button click? I wonder why Bill wouldn’t answer my question about vBulletin?

In case anybody is still not getting it, here's the specific claim made by John Lear that my copy of the image refutes...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/2482718.html

"The LO-2-162H has not been retouched as far as I can tell." and "Through some quirk of fate I not only received one that wasn't retouched but received the actual negative." == John Lear

Anyone who has seen the much higher quality copy of the image I received directly from NASA can clearly see (I even gave you guys clues how to find it and see for yourself!) that it isn't from the same reconstruction of the archived telemetry data due to slight differences in the alignment of the framelets (or "strips") yet it has the same so-called "anomalies" Lear touts as evidence that NASA “screwed up“ and his image is somehow special and unretouched!

The bottom line is ATS effectively suppressed this evidence by refusing to post it anonymously on my behalf and then lied about it in public and continues to promote this hoax to this day… and RU appears to be perfectly content with and complicit in protecting ATS. I wonder why?

Sheesh, no wonder Shawnna quit... looks you guys let the 800 pound gorilla kick your a__.
Last edited by Access Denied on Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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