Quantum Quackery

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Thu May 22, 2008 4:53 am

And I should add one last point: If someday it was shown that Valentini superluminal communication was somehow physically coupled to brain function, then 'telepathic' future/remote viewing might be possible, as explained for a different interpetation of quantum theory from China, proposed by Dr. Shan Gao in Beijing. I introduced Dr. Shan Gao [aka Gao shan] to Stuart Hameroff's quantum mind discussion group in the late 1990s after I contacted Shan about one of his papers posted at the Los Alamos archive.

A Primary Quantum Model of Telepathy

Gao, Shan (2003) A Primary Quantum Model of Telepathy. [Preprint]

http://cogprints.org/3065/1/qmt.pdf

Abstract

In this paper, we give a primary quantum theoretical model of telepathy based on the principle of quantum superluminal communication (QSC). Some feasible experimental suggestions are presented. The possible application of telepathy as one kind of new communication means is also discussed.
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby ryguy » Fri May 23, 2008 2:41 pm

Gary wrote:And I should add one last point: If someday it was shown that Valentini superluminal communication was somehow physically coupled to brain function, then 'telepathic' future/remote viewing might be possible, as explained for a different interpetation of quantum theory from China, proposed by Dr. Shan Gao in Beijing. I introduced Dr. Shan Gao [aka Gao shan] to Stuart Hameroff's quantum mind discussion group in the late 1990s after I contacted Shan about one of his papers posted at the Los Alamos archive.


It doesn't matter what faulty conclusions or speculations are inside the package - the point is that you, Baker, and others involved in seeking to grow interest within a certain field of quantum quackery share the same theoretical package in order to deliver the unproven and far-from-realistic contents. In Baker's case - HFGW (with Hal and Eric's support I might add). In your case - the "reality" of telepathic communications. In both cases, rich benefactors who have a misconception about their own ability to understand science have squandered millions on research that has provided zero return on investment. It's a cottage industry mind you - quantum quackery that is.

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Fri May 23, 2008 4:19 pm

Actually Ryan, it's also known as threat assessment: Determining what surprise technologies might someday threaten national security, which is why many paragraphs on the foreign threat are blacked out in STAR GATE files.

The idea is to alert the PTB to a potential techno-9/11, regardless of the source of the threat, here on Earth, or from elsewhere.

As an example, who, in 1950, at the start of the post-nuclear age, would have taken quantum teleportation seriously? Yet today it is an area of active research world-wide, and a concern due to the potential for cracking coded communications once thought to be secure.

And in case you're wondering, Ron IS behind a lot of this research, although he finds it useful to dis-inform via internet forums.
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby ryguy » Fri May 23, 2008 4:36 pm

Gary wrote:Actually Ryan, it's also known as threat assessment: Determining what surprise technologies might someday threaten national security, which is why many paragraphs on the foreign threat are blacked out in STAR GATE files.


No - many pages are blacked out because they possibly reference people, places or projects that are not unclassified. It has nothing to do with "surprise technologies" that might threaten national security. That's the b.s. line Hal and Targ fed the CIA and other government orgs when they were trying to convince them that remote viewing was a "surprise threat" from the Soviets that threatened national security.

The idea is to alert the PTB to a potential techno-9/11, regardless of the source of the threat, here on Earth, or from elsewhere.


No - the approach you are trying to use is the same that's been used by quantum quackery scientists since the 1950's...try to convince the folks holding the purse strings that there's a serious threat to national security, and that the *scientist* holds the key to the solution.

As an example, who, in 1950, at the start of the post-nuclear age, would have taken quantum teleportation seriously? Yet today it is an area of active research world-wide, and a concern due to the potential for cracking coded communications once thought to be secure.


"Active research world-wide"....lol...ok then. I'll be looking for those mainstream physics committees that have positively peer reviewed all of those teleportation studies. For Pete's sake don't try to quote Davis' paper. lol

And in case you're wondering, Ron IS behind a lot of this research, although he finds it useful to dis-inform via internet forums.


I wasn't, but thanks for sharing your delusional speculations once again.

Here's non-speculation - I have a statement from Ron saying that you need mental "help"... I'm sure you view that as disinformation - but I bet if we took a poll here, most people would likely agree with him.

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Sat May 24, 2008 4:19 am

ryguy wrote:
Gary wrote:Actually Ryan, it's also known as threat assessment: Determining what surprise technologies might someday threaten national security, which is why many paragraphs on the foreign threat are blacked out in STAR GATE files.


No - many pages are blacked out because they possibly reference people, places or projects that are not unclassified. It has nothing to do with "surprise technologies" that might threaten national security. That's the b.s. line Hal and Targ fed the CIA and other government orgs when they were trying to convince them that remote viewing was a "surprise threat" from the Soviets that threatened national security.
-Ry


Ryan, you have absolutely no basis for the above paragraph since you have not even seen the relevant pages, which are blacked out under the topics of foreign assessments. You need to see the context of the material on the actual pages before and after the redacted material. It has NOTHING to do with Hal and Targ since they had left the program years before the documents in question.
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Sat May 24, 2008 4:34 am

ryguy wrote:
The idea is to alert the PTB to a potential techno-9/11, regardless of the source of the threat, here on Earth, or from elsewhere.


No - the approach you are trying to use is the same that's been used by quantum quackery scientists since the 1950's...try to convince the folks holding the purse strings that there's a serious threat to national security, and that the *scientist* holds the key to the solution.
-Ry


You have no basis for such blanket statements. A technical 9/11 is always a possibility, similar to the fate of Japan at the end of WWII.

I suggest you read the book by former covert operative Valerie Plame, where she describes some of the collection methods used by CIA.

I also suggest you review the debate between the founding fathers of the quantum theory; pilot wave theory was first suggested by Prince Louis de Broglie in 1927. Quantum quackery, indeed. You need to understand the historical development of the theory, which, once again, is NOT related to Hal's theory.
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Sat May 24, 2008 4:40 am

ryguy wrote:
As an example, who, in 1950, at the start of the post-nuclear age, would have taken quantum teleportation seriously? Yet today it is an area of active research world-wide, and a concern due to the potential for cracking coded communications once thought to be secure.


"Active research world-wide"....lol...ok then. I'll be looking for those mainstream physics committees that have positively peer reviewed all of those teleportation studies. For Pete's sake don't try to quote Davis' paper. lol
-Ry


OK Ryan, why don't you begin by surveying the arxiv.org database:

http://arxiv.org/find/grp_stat,grp_cs,g ... /0/all/0/1

765 total for "teleportation"
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Sat May 24, 2008 5:15 am

ryguy wrote:
And in case you're wondering, Ron IS behind a lot of this research, although he finds it useful to dis-inform via internet forums.


I wasn't, but thanks for sharing your delusional speculations once again.

Here's non-speculation - I have a statement from Ron saying that you need mental "help"... I'm sure you view that as disinformation - but I bet if we took a poll here, most people would likely agree with him. -Ry


Ron is attempting to cover for his relationship with the "un-usual suspects" funding for weird science, no doubt.

We have the emails on file, thank you. On the other hand you need to familiarize yourself with the open-source literature.

"Help, eh?" That's Ron's MO -- like this similar message we received from Ron that disparages Dan Smith:

Your Article About ...
Friday, February 23, 2007 7:10 PM
From Ronald Pandolfi Fri Feb 23 17:10:30 2007

To:
Cc: "Jack Sarfatti" , "Gordon Novel"
Subject: Your Article About ...
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:10:30 -0500

Gary,

I realize you are reporting information as provided by Dan Smith, but by now you should have realized that he is mentally ill. As a responsible journalist, you should work with sources that provide reliable information and at least attempt to contact those mentioned before publishing alleged accusations. Reporting information based on sources that are mentally ill is not an accepted journalistic practice. Let me be clear—the information provided to you by Dan Smith concerning me is false. Please take appropriate actions to including retracting the articles you issued based on this false information.

Ron

What Ron didn't know is that I received confirmation of Dan's information from at least two other sources.

Later ... Ron requested redactions, see below:

RE: Damage Control
Thursday, March 1, 2007 6:54 PM
From Ronald Pandolfi Thu Mar 1 16:54:54 2007

Thanks for taking the time to implement damage control. Below are some suggested changes. Kit may have additional suggestions. __Ron

From: Gary S. Bekkum [mailto:garybekkum@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 4:37 PM
To: Ronald Pandolfi
Subject: Damage Control

Ron, are you OK with SSR releasing this:

---

In our attempt to best balance our on-going reports with the various interests involved, we have been compelled to withdraw deeper into the background. With a little luck we will be able to move our story ahead, better inform the public, and reduce the overall stress level of everyone concerned. We have been told that everyone is more than happy to assist with the disclosure process, so long as they remain anonymous.

Thus we have implemented “damage control” by agreeing to allow new sources the opportunity to speak on a not-for-attribution basis.

In a discussion about our recent stories with a Senior Intelligence Official (SIO) we reiterated that Mr. Smith, Smith’s Blog, and his various on-line audio interviews were not the sole source of our information. According to
the SIO, “None of the e-mails...[redacted from original email] ... were falsely implicated.”

The SERPO saga is an Internet myth about an allegedly ultra-secret exchange program between the United States and an alien world. We were naturally curious to learn why government officials and intelligence consultants had
expressed so much interest in what was at best B-grade science fiction.

The SIO confirmed that there had been an investigation.

“In the end it generated no conclusive findings. [redacted]”

[Please be clear the e-mails referred to above are those from the researchers (me, Kit, Dan, etc.). As currently stated your sentence might be interpreted as referring to the SERPO e-mails. I suggest you delete the second sentence. It is out of context without inclusion of your questions which I referred to as vague. You might simply state that some excerpts form the e-mails attributed to the researchers might have been modified and others might have been fabricated.]


According to the SIO, [redacted here from original]

[Please delete this entire paragraph. I can see you understand the importance of not revealing sources. It is even more important not to reveal methods as these potentially can be applied to multiple sources.]
---
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby ryguy » Sat May 24, 2008 5:58 am

Thanks for the info.

See - you're not the only one who knows how to bait. ;)

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 24, 2008 5:30 pm

Gary wrote:Ryan, HF Gravity Waves have nothing to do with the pilot wave/quantum potential which is a 21st century fundamental theory that may be valid underneath 20th century quantum mechanics (whereas gravity is generally considered in classical terms).

So tell us Gary, have Hal and Co. had any better luck selling Baker’s form of quantum quackery to the Chinese than they have the NSA and Co.?

2nd HFGW International Workshop
Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin (IASA), Texas, September 17-20, 2007


Image
Biao Li Jie Zhen, Leonid Grishchuk, Zhenyun Fang, Kit Green, Fangyu Li, Bob Baker, Gary Stephenson, and Hal Puthoff

Image
Leonid Grishchuk, Valentin Rudenko, Hal Puthoff, Giorgio Fontana, Gary Stephenson, Bob Baker, Eric Davis, and Fangyu Li

Image
Bob Baker and Kit Green

In case there’s any doubt Hal’s ZPF is a form of quantum quackery…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_field

In quantum field theory, the zero-point field is the lowest energy state of a field, i.e. its ground state, which is non zero. This phenomenon gives the quantum vacuum a complex structure, which can be probed experimentally; see, for example, the Casimir effect. The term "zero-point field" is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of an individual quantized field. The electromagnetic zero-point field is loosely considered as a sea of background electromagnetic energy that fills the vacuum of space, and is often regarded merely as a curious outcome of the quantum mechanical requirement, namely the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, that the lowest allowable energy level in a harmonic oscillator mode is not zero but ħw /2, where w is the characteristic frequency of the oscillator.

And…

In recent years, a number of new age books have begun to appear propounding the view that the zero-point field of physics is the secret force of the universe being used to explain such phenomena as intention, remote viewing, paranormal ability, etc. One of the main purveyors of this view is Stanford physicist Harold Puthoff who spent more than thirty years examining the zero-point field.

No connection?

Gary wrote:I also suggest you review the debate between the founding fathers of the quantum theory; pilot wave theory was first suggested by Prince Louis de Broglie in 1927. Quantum quackery, indeed. You need to understand the historical development of the theory, which, once again, is NOT related to Hal's theory.

Sure it is, it’s another form of quantum quackery related to Hal and Co.’s brand of fringe “research” based on a shared belief in ET (or more precisely UT) contact…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave

In theoretical physics, pilot wave theory was the first known example of a hidden variable theory, presented by Louis de Broglie in 1927. Its more modern version, the Bohm interpretation, remains a controversial attempt to interpret quantum mechanics as a deterministic theory, avoiding troublesome notions such as instantaneous wavefunction collapse and the paradox of Schrödinger's cat.

And…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

The Bohm interpretation (as well as others) has also been the basis of some books which attempt to connect physics with Eastern mysticism and consciousness.

Quantum quackery indeed…
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Gary » Sun May 25, 2008 3:09 am

AD your last point re: Bohm is ridiculous given that the "mind creates reality" quantum mysticism is based on the conventional Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Guilt by association? Reality breaks down in ordinary quantum mechanics where reality becomes nothing but a probability; Bohm and pilot wave theory attempt to restore a classical picture of actual particles moving on real trajectories for quantum events.

SInce you are so interested in the quantum vacuum, you might wish to check out the debate from PBS between Puthoff and Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg:

http://www.pbs.org/safarchive/3_ask/arc ... nberg.html

A few quotes of relevance to the discussion here:

WEINBERG: We don't have a way of reliably calculating the energy in empty space. When we try to use our present quantum field theory to do this calculation, the answer in the simplest approximation comes out infinite, which is clearly nonsense...Electric and magnetic fields and other fields are subject to a version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle: it is not possible to have a state in which a field, and the rate at which it is changing, both vanish. Consequently empty space, even far from any matter, is permeated with continually fluctuating fields. The effects of these fields are very weak under ordinary circumstances, but they can be measured -- for instance, by observing a force between parallel metal plates due to the change produced by these plates in the fluctuating electric and magnetic fields in the space between the plates. This is known as the Casimir effect, and has been studied experimentally and theoretically for many years....There appears to be this energy of empty space that isn't zero! This flies in the face of all conventional wisdom in theoretical particle physics. It is the most profound shift in thinking, perhaps the most profound puzzle, in the latter half of the 20th century. And it may be the first half of the 21st century, or maybe go all the way to the 22nd century. Because, unfortunately, I happen to think we won't be able to rely on experiment to resolve this problem.

http://www.edge.org/video/dsl/krauss.html

PUTHOFF: As pointed out by Prof. Weinberg, a straightforward calculation using quantum field theory does indeed yield an infinite energy density for the zero-point energy (ZPE) of empty space. What's wrong with this calculation is the assumption that electromagnetic waves of all frequencies exist and contribute to this energy density. However, physicists Sakharov, Wheeler, and others argue that, because of quantum effects, the concept of a well-behaved spacetime geometry must lose its meaning as one approaches the so-called Planck frequency (wavelength ~10^-33 cm) where the geometry dissolves into a quantum "foam-like structure." Assuming a high-frequency cutoff at this frequency, they estimate an energy density which, though not infinite, might as well be for all practical purposes (mass equivalent of ~10^94 g/cm-cubed). Feynman, arguing that what counts is not the maximum frequency available in the ZPE background, but rather the frequency at which meaningful interactions between the background and nuclei cut off, reduces this estimate further to nuclear energy densities (~10^14 g/cm-cubed), still an exceedingly large number.

Recent data on dark energy is also relevant:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/krauss0 ... index.html

We've got this weird antigravity in the universe, which is making the expansion of the universe accelerate. Now: if you plug in the equations of general relativity, the only thing that can 'anti-gravitate' is the energy of nothing. Now: this has been a problem in physics since I've been a graduate student. It was such a severe problem we never talked about it. When you apply quantum mechanics and special relativity, empty space inevitably has energy. The problem is, way too much energy. It has 120 orders of magnitude more energy than is contained in everything we see!

Now that is the worst prediction in all of physics. You might say, if that's such a bad prediction, then how do we know empty space can have energy? The answer is, we know empty space isn't empty, because it's full of these virtual particles that pop in and out of existence, and we know that because if you try and calculate the energy level in a hydrogen atom, and you don't include those virtual particles, you get a wrong answer.


Here's a good explanation from mathematical physicist John Baez:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/vacuum.html

And this too:

http://supernova.lbl.gov/~evlinder/wilczek.pdf

Since vacuum energy density is central to both fundamental physics and cosmology,
and yet extremely poorly understood, experimental research into its nature must be regarded
as a top priority for physical science. -- Frank Wilczek, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Access Denied » Sun May 25, 2008 6:31 pm

Gary wrote:Since you are so interested in the quantum vacuum

I'm not.

You might wish to check out this Q&A...

zero-point energy?
http://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1256

Q: Can you tell me about Zero Point Energy? Apparently, extremely high vacuum fluctuations are occuring around us, and some feel it can be used as a power source if we can find a method of receiving the energy. Prigogine’s Nobel Prize for a system of self-organization is cited, but I’m not entirely convinced. What do you think? Thanks

-Matt (age 20) C.S.U.

A: You're sceptical- a good thing in general and especially in this case.

Zero-point energy is a natural consequence of quantum mechanics. Take a little mass on a spring. Its potential energy is lowest when the spring is exactly unstretched. But that means that the mass is at a particular place, and the uncertainty principle would then require that its momentum have an infinite spread, giving it infinite kinetic energy. The real lowest energy state has the mass spread out over a little region, with the potential and kinetic energies each a little above their lowest possible values, but with the total as low as possible. That minimum is called the zero-point energy. Many quantum systems are mathematically analogous to a mass on a spring and have similar zero-point energies.

It's misleading to say that large fluctuations 'are occurring' in that lowest state, although scientists often use sloppy phrases like that. The system is just sitting in a state, which happens not to have definite values of position and momentum. It's not true, however, to say that its position and momentum are changing in any way. That language comes from inconsistent attempts to force quantum facts into classical descriptions.

No valid theory predicts any way to extract such energy, which would require leaving things in a state with less energy than the state with least energy, by definition of 'zero-point.'

What Prigogine's 'self-organization' ideas have to do with this is beyond me, since they weren't even concerned with quantum mechanics. (His main ideas on quantum mechanics concerned the role of density matrices in time irreversibility- and these ideas are rarely mentioned by any serious students of that issue.) The only connection that comes to mind is that Prigogine wasn't above shoveling a bit of BS on occasion.

Mike W.

And…

Q: Even though the focus of Puthoff and his lab in texas doesn’t always sound like "sound" science based on your interpretation of so little potential extraction from this field, do you not think that the exploration and persuit of what this might do for humanity, still not worthwhile?

-sean (age 23)
colo. spgs. colo

A: Not really. There are an infinite number of crazy ideas people can come up with. Meanwhile there are a lot of difficult but plausible idea to pursue- nuclear fusion, improved solar electrical generation, and so forth. Focusing on the real possibilities seems to make more sense.

Mike W.

Sorry Gary but I think Robert A. Heinlein said it best in the The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress...

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby ryguy » Sun May 25, 2008 9:36 pm

Thanks for posting the photos AD...haha...aren't they just perfect?

I thought Steve would have posted them and/or the link, but it appears he has football on the brain, as usual. :)

Thanks for stepping up...that post was awesome. Gary still doesn't seem to get it though. lol

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby Zep Tepi » Sun May 25, 2008 9:43 pm

Yeah, Hull City, it's been pretty Hull City hard to think about anything else Hull City just recently. Hull City normal service will be resumed Hull City shortly.

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Re: Quantum Quackery

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon May 26, 2008 2:06 am

Access Denied wrote:Sorry Gary but I think Robert A. Heinlein said it best in the The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress...

TANSTAFL

[There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch]


I gotta chime in here and point out just how appropriate this concept really is. I wonder if Robert A. Heinlein learned thermodynamics from the same guy my thermo teacher did? :D Because the guy who taught me thermo kept repeating the "no free lunch" mantra as he taught us the laws of thermodynamics, especially the 2nd Law. In fact, his chant to us was always to "remember the 2nd law of thermo says you get no free lunch. ever!"

So whenever Hal (or anyone else who gets excited about ZPE/ZPF) can show why the 2nd law of thermo is a limiting factor of a bigger law, that is when I will listen. Otherwise, the way that they describe the "zero point" state does not get around the fact that you have to put energy INTO an equilibrium state to drive the system OFF equilibrium. Indeed, it is the OSCILLATION of any system around some stable state that is the "magic" by which any and all POWER is generated. There is no mystery here.

You have to put energy into a system in order to get energy out of it. I have seen no one positively demonstrate a system that can violate this. Does anyone else think someone else has done this and proven it with energy and power measurements?

Science is great, but engineering is where the rubber meets the road. If someone thinks they can field a system which violates the 2nd law of thermo, then they should be able to demonstrate this system conclusively under all observations.

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