Dulce

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Dulce

Postby Chorlton » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:25 pm

As someone with an interest in supposed 'underground bases' I'd like peoples opinions on the alleged Dulce base. Lear claims he wrote a lot of the stuff about Dulce (which could probably explain things !!?) but I'm interested in peoples opinions on how the Dulce thing all started.
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:49 pm

It would seem that any remote place is ripe for an underground base conspiracy in the US. I don't put anything into Dulce, as there is NO evidence of the truckloads of support you would see coming in and out of such a facility. NO improved roads going to the area where it is located.

Unless you subscribe to Lear's claims of underground transportation tubes the Dulce thing, in my opinion, is far too easy to debunk.
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Postby Chorlton » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:27 pm

I dont believe any of it but Im interested in how this thing actually started.
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:11 am

Here's a rather interesting thread about it on your old stomping grounds:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread264651/pg1
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Postby Chorlton » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:36 am

I think dear old Springer, in one of her PMT fits banned my IP address as I am unable to see anything on ATS. Not that I realy want to. I popped back on to it a week or so ago to check something but couldnt.

Have they given the hoaxers Gridkeeper and Escamilla their own Conspiracy Master Forums now then? or are they putting James Casbolt up for a Knighthood? :D
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:08 pm

No, the actually banned them, lol. It wasn't Springer, but one of the other two "amigos". I actually would have thought they would have been rewarded for their idiocy with a conspiracy master forum, too, lol.

I don't know if this will work with an IP ban or not, but you may want to see if you can visit their site by going through www.proxify.com

But, back to Dulce, it looks like Lear had a huge hand in getting the ball rolling on that, then the usual nutjobs just kept taking it and ran from there.
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:12 pm

From the ATS thread ITF linked to here’s John Lear’s “admission” (claim?) that he “created” the Dulce hoax…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid2910100

johnlear wrote:I told the story to Cooper after I met him on Paranet during the summer of 1988. He drove to Vegas from L.A. and I gave him a copy of everything I had including the Dulce papers which I had written.

Schneider used copies of those papers to make up his story starting I believe in the early 90's. He could have easily gotten copies of any of the papers, including the Dulce papers which by then had been published in Matrix 1 by Val Valerian (John Grace).

John Lear was ejected (banned) from Paranet for spreading “disinformation” after writing this…

The Infamous John Lear Text (December 29, 1987)
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/lear1.txt

Here are the Dulce/Krill Papers…

A Situation Report on Our Acquisition of Advanced Technology and Interaction with Alien Cultures (Parts I-IV) by O.H. Krill, January 1988
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/krills01.txt
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/krills02.txt
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/krills03.txt
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/krills04.txt

[note the use of the term Acquisition of Advanced Technology may be revealing in assessing the real world motives of those behind the Myth] :wink:

Now here’s some further “clarification” from Lear…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid3063034

johnlear wrote:I mentioned in another thread, I was the one that published the "Dulce Papers". I made the pen and ink drawings from the originals which were drawn in pencil. The information that I copied from the original papers smuggled out by Thomas Edwin Costello was typewritten on my IBM Executive (the kind with proportional spacing.) Check it out. I stayed with Dr. Bennewitz and his wife at their home overlooking the Manzano Weapons Storage Area (Kirtland AFB) in the fall of 1987 for 2 days. I interviewed Col. Edwards (with Linda Moulton Howe), Gabe Valdez (drove an 8 hour 10pm to 6am shift with him) Jim McCampbell (who tape recorded an interview with Dr. Bennewitz about the Hansen incident) and Bill Moore. Dr. Bennewitz gave me the x-ray of Myrna Hansen's head showing the the chip and the photos he had taken of the dome shaped saucers operating from the MWSA. 2 other government employees confirmed the existence of Dulce one of whom told me he knew it as Section D.

I was the one that originally copied the drawings and information and then sent it to friends. And, no, I didn't make it up. The drawings and text were published in Matrix I which was published by Val Valerian (John Grace).

There is no evidence I’m aware of that Thomas Edwin Costello was an actual person (surprise surprise) and I could be wrong but I suspect John Grace (aka Val Valerian) may be (yet another) alias/pen name for Richard Doty and the Dulce/Krill Papers was his first “masterpiece”… either that or it’s a pseudonym for Bill Moore? Depending on the source John Grace is alleged to be a USAF Technical Sergeant (same as Doty at the time), Captain or Major. Anybody know if John Grace has been confirmed to be a real person?

The Dulce Papers are linked to the Aquarius Document aka "The NASA (or NSA) Telex."… the consensus being it was forged by Doty.

This is all further confused by the “Dulce Book” by Branton which was an alias for Phil Schneider… or Bill Cooper?

Hope that helps. :)
Last edited by Access Denied on Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:07 pm

They were
indeed ugly little creatures, shaped like praying mantises and who
were more advanced than us by perhaps a billion years.


I would think that Lear does not understand how advanced a species could be if they were a "billion" years past us. I mean, we have only been on this planet a very short while, and technology has only been really progressing the last 100 years. In a billion years, if we make stuff that can travel across the universe and then, ah, crash, then we get what we deserve.

Plus, how does something shaped like a praying mantis build a ship, or even evolve for that matter? If is is shaped like a praying mantis then is doesn't have hands or digits that would allow it to progress technology. I asked John this once, and he immediately claimed that they didn't develop the technology they were using, but rather took it from another species...getting around the whole evolution of technology in a species shaped like a praying mantis.

It would have made more sense if he would have said they were only about a thousand or so years ahead of our technology, then we could have believed they would crash...remember at the time they were dropping like flies all around the world, lol. And he should have ignored his knee jerk reaction to have his make believe aliens look like something out of a bad 50's era sci-fi b-movie (my favorite type)
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:09 am

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:No, the actually banned them, lol. It wasn't Springer, but one of the other two "amigos". I actually would have thought they would have been rewarded for their idiocy with a conspiracy master forum, too, lol.

So I was right all along when I stated Gridkeeper and Escamilla were scammers.?

I don't know if this will work with an IP ban or not, but you may want to see if you can visit their site by going through http://www.proxify.com

No thats not me really, it would be pretty hypocritical of me to leave, then try to sneak back. There are far to many 'sheep'' or 'easy believers' on ATS for my liking. People who will believe anything because they so desperately need to believe, without questioning anything.

But, back to Dulce, it looks like Lear had a huge hand in getting the ball rolling on that, then the usual nutjobs just kept taking it and ran from there.

I just dont think Lear was bright enough to dream it up. I just dont think he is very intelligent at all and inventing a story like that is, in my opinion far beyond his talents. To me, Lear is someone who jumped on the UFO bandwagon as he saw a way of making a quick buck from it, (something that James Casbolt is trying to do now). People tend to kiss Lears arse and worship him because of his history of being a pilot (+Drug runner and gun runner. See the similarity with James Casbolts BS??). Yet being a pilot doesnt need such an incredible amount of grey matter. I have a near neighbour similar age to me and Lear who was flying planes the same time as Lear. Yet as he admitted, he failed every school exam and left school being classed as an idiot. He learned to fly, 'seat of pants' style in Australia, worked up from basic single engined things to Twin engined beasts buzzing around the Outback. Cutting a long story short, he eventually got his pilots licence, commercial licence and ended up flying Jumbos for Qantas and BA. But this man is as thick as pigshit, he cant even boil an egg. I consider Lear to be in the same classification. mechanically and mentaly sharp enough to learn and fly planes yet other than that hes a Billy-no-mates, effectively an idiot.
I just cant see Lear coming up with the Dulce thing on his own. My interest in this is associated with exposing Barry Kings fantasy Peasmore Base.
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:15 am

HI AD
Thanks for the references. Ive actually read preactically everything available on the Dulce stuff and still cannot make head nor tail of it.
As I stated to ITF I just dont consider Lear bright enough to come up with the idea.
Now I dont put it past someone to use Lear as a patsy to put a story over, but I cant see any mileage or profit in it for anyone behind the scenes.

Me old mate Ken (Realyweely) is back in the UK on Christmas eve and he knows an awfull lot more than me about Barry King and his fantasies about a Peasmore base.. The idea was for me to do my research independantly of him then compare what I found to what he knows.

Ill keep digging.
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:13 pm

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:No, the actually banned them, lol. It wasn't Springer, but one of the other two "amigos". I actually would have thought they would have been rewarded for their idiocy with a conspiracy master forum, too, lol.
.

So they have banned the two hoaxers?
Are they still going ahead with the James Casbolt Interview as he hasnt supplied one scrap of evidence for anything he has stated?
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Re:

Postby johnlear » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:31 am

Access Denied wrote:
There is no evidence I’m aware of that Thomas Edwin Costello was an actual person (surprise surprise) and I could be wrong but I suspect John Grace (aka Val Valerian) may be (yet another) alias/pen name for Richard Doty and the Dulce/Krill Papers was his first “masterpiece”… either that or it’s a pseudonym for Bill Moore? Depending on the source John Grace is alleged to be a USAF Technical Sergeant (same as Doty at the time), Captain or Major. Anybody know if John Grace has been confirmed to be a real person?


John Grace uses the pen name of Val Valerian. You can reach him at:

Leading Edge International Research Group
P.O.Box 2370
Yelm, WA98597

where he has lived for many years and published the Matrix documents.

The Dulce Papers are linked to the Aquarius Document aka "The NASA (or NSA) Telex."… the consensus being it was forged by Doty.


No, I wrote the Dulce Papers from the information Thomas Costello had given Mr. X, but you are free to speculate, everybody does. And please provide evidence that the Dulce papers are linked to the Aquarius Document aka "The NASA (or NSA) Telex.

This is all further confused by the “Dulce Book” by Branton which was an alias for Phil Schneider… or Bill Cooper?


No, Dave Branton, who wrote the Branton Files lived in Salt Lake. It was not an alias for Phil Schneider and or Bill Cooper. I knew all three of them. Neither Phil nor Bill had the research capabilities or intellect of Dave Branton. I haven't heard from Dave for many years.

Hope that helps. :)
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Re: Dulce

Postby dazdude » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:28 pm

John if I may ask.
why copy his drawings and release yours as the Dulce papers - why not just release the originals/information?

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Re: Dulce

Postby johnlear » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:41 pm

dazdude wrote:John if I may ask.
why copy his drawings and release yours as the Dulce papers - why not just release the originals/information?

daz


Mr. X saw the 8x10 photos and information that Castello had before they were put in the box.

Mr. X then made pencil drawings of the photos and handwritten notes from the documents.

When Mr. X showed them to me and asked me to distribute them I copied the drawings in black felt tip ink because the pencil drawing where not dark enough to xerox and the notes on my typewriter for the same reason.

I posted everything I had on ATS, both the pencil drawings, the pencil notes, the ink drawing and the typewritten notes.

I never saw the original photos or the original notes.
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Re: Dulce

Postby Access Denied » Thu May 01, 2008 4:19 am

johnlear wrote:John Grace uses the pen name of Val Valerian. You can reach him at:

Leading Edge International Research Group
P.O.Box 2370
Yelm, WA98597

where he has lived for many years and published the Matrix documents.

Yes, I’ve seen the web site… could be anybody at the receiving end of that PO Box. As usual yet another dead end.

Again, what I’m looking for is independent confirmation that John Grace is in fact a real person by that name who was in the AF and what he capacity he served in e.g. rank, specialty, etc.

johnlear wrote:No, I wrote the Dulce Papers from the information Thomas Costello had given Mr. X, but you are free to speculate, everybody does.

Right, so in other words you can’t confirm Thomas Costello (who’s conveniently missing and “presumed” dead) was a real person by that name and what his credentials were either. :roll:

For all I know Thomas Costello could be a fabrication of Mr X (Bill Hamilton, Richard Doty?) or by you or a pseudonym for Phil Schneider, Bill Cooper or who knows… regardless, all of these people, including you, were clearly “working” from the same “playbook” created by Doty/Moore et. al.

[some more convincingly than others lol]

johnlear wrote:And please provide evidence that the Dulce papers are linked to the Aquarius Document aka "The NASA (or NSA) Telex.

Well, they’re linked by virtue of the fact that the Aquarius Document preceded it and provided the “basis” for it. As you (should) know the Aquarius Document is alternatively referred to as the circa 1980 telex Doty forged that first “established” the existence of “MJ TWELVE” and also as the Aquarius Document (aka the Carter briefing, “Jesus was an alien”, the Aviary’s 1.0 “disturbing” message lol) “given” to Bill Moore circa 1983 and according to Bill Cooper you were “briefed” on…

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc577.htm

]The AQUARIUS document released by Moore which he claims was given to him by Mr. Graham was changed and I am including a reconstructed document as it was presented to me by one of my sources. I am also including all the information (in short form) that I presently have regarding the U.S. Government and the Aliens. This information has been reviewed by 3 different people who know the information but do not know each other and they have made some corrections to the document. If the information deviates somewhat from information that I have previously released it is due to those corrections. My previous information was from memory of documents seen over 16 years ago and I am pleased that my memory has withstood the rigors of time quite well. In case you doubt that I had the information previous to this release you may check with Stan Friedman, Tom Mickus, Don Ecker, John Lear, and Bryon Smith as I had given the information to them some time ago.

And…

TOP SECRET/MAJIC

THE PROJECTS UNDER PROJECT AQUARIUS


1. (TS/ORCON) PROJECT PLATO: (PROWORD: AQUARIUS) Originally
established as part of Project SIGN in 1954. Its mission was to establish
diplomatic relations with Aliens. This Project was successful when
mutually acceptable terms were agreed upon. These terms involved the
exchange of technology for secrecy of Alien presence and non interference
in Alien affairs. Aliens agreed to provide MAJI with a list of human
contacts on a periodic basis. This Project is continuing at a site in New
Mexico.


2. (TS/ORCON) PROJECT SIGMA: (PROWORD: AQUARIUS) Originally
established as part of Project SIGN in 1954. Became a separate project in
1976. Its mission was to establish communication with Aliens. This
Project met with positive success (sic) when in 1959, the United States
established primative communications with the Aliens. On April 25, 1964, a
USAF intelligence officer met with Aliens at Holloman AFB, New Mexico. The
contact lasted for approximately three hours. After several attempted
methods of communicating the intelligence officer managed to exchange basic
information with the Aliens (Atch 7). This Project is continuing at a site
in New Mexico.

Of course Cooper’s ”reconstruction” of the Aquarius Document differs from the “originals”, part of which can be viewed here…

The Secret Pratt Tapes and the Origins of MJ-12
2007 MUFON Symposium Proceedings REV R [lol how many revisions is that?]
http://www.mufon.com/documents/2007MUFO ... ations.pdf

Aquarius Teletype 1980 (fake) [p. 123, p. 34 of PDF]

Aquarius Executive Briefing of Carter 1977 (fake) [p. 124, p. 35 of PDF]
(cover page)

Aquarius Executive Briefing 1977 (fake) [p. 125, p. 36 of PDF]
(Jesus Page mentioning alien planted 2,000 years ago)

See also the Skeptics UFO Newsletter -2- March 1997 FMI…

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-44.html

BOGUS DOTY TELETYPE INTRODUCES TERM "MJ TWELVE"

SGT. DOTY SHOWS SAME AQUARIUS DOCUMENT TO ANOTHER RESEARCHER (Linda Moulton Howe)

johnlear wrote:No, Dave Branton, who wrote the Branton Files lived in Salt Lake. It was not an alias for Phil Schneider and or Bill Cooper. I knew all three of them. Neither Phil nor Bill had the research capabilities or intellect of Dave Branton. I haven't heard from Dave for many years.

I guess I’ll have to take your “word” on that then won’t I?

johnlear wrote:Hope that helps. :)

No, as usual, not at all. :)
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