Dulce

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Re: Dulce

Postby Shawnna » Thu May 01, 2008 4:46 am

Yelm, WA is in my stomping grounds.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Very rural area. Can't see someone having a PO Box in Yelm unless they actually lived there.

And last I checked, they didn't make post office boxes big enough for anyone to live in.

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Re: Dulce

Postby Access Denied » Thu May 01, 2008 5:16 am

Yelm is/was also the home of J.Z. Knight the Ramtha channeler... coincidence? :lol:
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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Tue May 06, 2008 6:43 pm

The earliest mention of Dulce that I have come across is from late spring of 1981 ... when the AFOSI wanted to draw Bennewitz attention from Manzano Weapons Storage Complex/Kirtland Air Force Base ... in which Richard Doty and Bill Moore created the imaginary underground alien base at Dulce.
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Re: Dulce

Postby Chorlton » Wed May 07, 2008 8:01 am

Thanks packetstorm
Do you have any references for that?
Those dates are interesting
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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Wed May 07, 2008 4:09 pm

Reference to late spring of 1981:
http://www.philipcoppens.com/bennewitz.html

However a more exact date is given as January 27, 1980 by Brad Sparks:

Bennewitz claimed that on January 27, 1980, he received his first radio communication from
the aliens. This was, he asserted, shortly after the U.S. armed forces fought a battle with the aliens at the underground “alien US base” near Archuleta Peak, some 4.5 miles northwest of Dulce, NM.


http://www.mufon.com/documents/2007MUFO ... ations.pdf

The story appears to be reinforced on May 7, 1980 ... when Myrna Hansen an abductee in a hypnosis session with Paul Bennewitz and Leo Sprinkle described an underground base populated with aliens. (Leo Sprinkle a disinfo agents ... Bennewitz later claimed he was a CIA agent?)

Regardless ... John Lear states his Dulce story starts from info he received at a UFO conference at Crestone, Colorado in 1987. From information provided by another source ... Mr. X .... independent of Bennewitz. What that information is and who the source is ... I do not know at this time ... I need to look into it.

But the 'Dulce' story certainly did not originate with John Lear.
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Re: Dulce

Postby ryguy » Wed May 07, 2008 5:17 pm

packetStorm wrote:Regardless ... John Lear states his Dulce story starts from info he received at a UFO conference at Crestone, Colorado in 1987. From information provided by another source ... Mr. X .... independent of Bennewitz. What that information is and who the source is ... I do not know at this time ... I need to look into it.

But the 'Dulce' story certainly did not originate with John Lear.


I wouldn't say that "Mr. X" was independent of Bennewitz. You have to keep in mind that Bennewitz, Moore, Lear, and many, many others were being fed the same stories from these "sources" all throughout the 80's and even early 90's (all the way up through today).

If Lear is telling the truth about where he heard the story, then it's likely he's just another Bennewitz - one more of the hundreds who've been fed these stories from the same source(s). When you find his true source, you've found Bennewitz' and Moore's sources as well.

These guys have gained the confidences of a number of mentally unstable people - and depend on them to inject the memes that they need injected. It's a cowardly, dispicable, disgusting, schitzophrenic and psychopathic behavior. They are convinced that they are brilliant, elite, and invincible - yet in reality they are not. They should be absolutely ashamed of their actions.

Of course they never will be. That's the sick truth that exists in the mind of a psychopath.

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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Wed May 07, 2008 7:09 pm

ryguy I certainly agree with you about the sources of information and that Mr. X may well be Doty et al. And that these sources also could have feed Bob Lazar, Phil Schneider, Daniel Burisch, Michael Wolf, and Thomas Castello.

I did not intend to suggest that the information came from independent sources but mentioned that is what John Lear stated:

Paul Bennewitz happened to stumble onto the existence of Dulce like I did, but through completely different channels.


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread282348/pg3

What I have posted is info as to the origin of the Dulce underground base story.

However, I am not convinced that everything related to Bennewitz is pure disinformation. There certainly appear to be events that occurred prior to Bennewitz contacting the Kirtland AFB authorities in October 1980 ... at which point I would assume the disinformation efforts would have started.

There are the cattle mutilations in and around Dulce in the mid 1970's which Bennewitz was researching and photographs of some genuinely unexplained aerial phenomena by Bennewitz. Also ... Myrna Hansen story in May of 1980 ... again before October 1980.

So was the disinformation effort actually started prior to October 1980? Is the Myrna Hansen story just coincidental? Did AFOSI know Bennewitz was decoding compressed radio signals prior to him writing them? What about the cattle mutilation in Dulce? And the pictures and film that Bennewitz captured?
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Re: Dulce

Postby ryguy » Wed May 07, 2008 7:30 pm

Absolutely - I agree with you 100%...and your questions are spot-on.

The key to the source of all of these stories subsequent to the 1980's when they started using mentally unstable people to distribute their memes, absolutely comes from the years prior to 1980, and the events and activities surrounding Doty and friends during those years.

People focus on Bennewitz and the early 80's, but there are so many events that took place before that over at Wright Patterson, over in New Mexico as well, and as Steve is working on at the moment - many of the elements of the story come from some much older information that existed long before these guys came along and stole it. I'm very excited for Steve to finish putting all of that stuff together.

I can tell that you recognize all of this - since your focus is on pre-1980's...very cool...

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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Wed May 07, 2008 8:30 pm

Yes I agree ... and that is what I am searching for ... the answer to why the CIA/AF engaged in their disinformation efforts prior to 1981. I do believe it was not in an effort to profiteer but something else?

However, after the Bennewitz affair I think one could make a strong argument that Doty was motivated to make lots of money off this fiction. One can imagine Doty looking at the money Moore was making with the release of The Roswell Incident and wanting a piece of the pie. As Brad Sparks points out in his MUFON 2007 Symposium paper that Doty, Moore and Pratt all met in December 1981 to put a book together.

With everything after 1981 ... being pure crap by Doty and friends to make money ... MJ-12, Serpo, etc.

But the question is what happen prior 1981 ... specially the events around 1972 etc.

I think Philip Coppens is on the right track and has done some really good research ... check it out if you haven't in the past:
http://www.philipcoppens.com/ufogate.html

I am not sure who Steve is ... but I am hopeful that he can shed some light on the situation!
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Re: Dulce

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed May 07, 2008 8:36 pm

packetStorm wrote:Yes I agree ... and that is what I am searching for ... the answer to why the CIA/AF engaged in their disinformation efforts prior to 1981. I do believe it was not in an effort to profiteer but something else?

(snip)

But the question is what happen prior 1981 ... specially the events around 1972 etc.


The nascent development of stealth air vehicle technology has its historical roots in the timeframe from (roughly) 1967 with a great deal of testing efforts well underway by the early 1970s. With the F-117's (stealth fighter) first flight in the 1977 timeframe, it is certainly possible that this all served as a cover/diversion for a great deal of stealth activities.

I'm just sayin... :wink:
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Re: Dulce

Postby lost_shaman » Thu May 08, 2008 1:53 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:The nascent development of stealth air vehicle technology has its historical roots in the timeframe from (roughly) 1967 with a great deal of testing efforts well underway by the early 1970s. With the F-117's (stealth fighter) first flight in the 1977 timeframe, it is certainly possible that this all served as a cover/diversion for a great deal of stealth activities.

I'm just sayin... :wink:
Ray


Of course any speculation like this must also assume that at some point in this time frame a 'secret' decision was made somewhere that changed the focus on the 'UFO Phenomena' from one of discovering what exactly the 'phenomena' is to one that focused on using the 'phenomena' for intel/counterinteligence purposes.

Clearly the 'phenomena' itself isn't going to go away. Nor will it fade into history. Forget Crop circles, and Alien abduction stories! Forget about the fringe. The 'UFO Phenomena' is ONLY about 'strange' observations of reflective and/or light emitting objects witnessed in the mid/to lower atmosphere.

So therefore one must consider that either the U.S. Military discovered the true nature of the 'phenomena' and decided to keep it 'secret' for intel/counterinteligence purposes, or never understood the 'phenomena' and decided to keep it 'secret' for intel/counterinteligence purposes! :wink: Take your pick.

Either way the only things that are certain is that the 'phenomena' isn't going away and that the U.S. Govt./Military position concerning the 'phenomena' is contradictory if not 'secretive'. One example might be relatively recent 'closed door' Congressional hearings where the topic was an incursion of restricted airspace by a UFO/UAP.
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Re: Dulce

Postby Chorlton » Thu May 08, 2008 8:06 am

Thanks for that Packetstorm. Those dates tie in a little with some bits and bobs I have about certain goings on in the UK at the time.
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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Thu May 08, 2008 5:28 pm

packetStorm wrote:So was the disinformation effort actually started prior to October 1980?

I just want to clarify this ... as the specific disinformation effort related to Bennewitz affair.

Certainly the disinformation operations began well before 1980 ... as far back as the 1950's with George Adamski and Howard Menger.
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Re: Dulce

Postby packetStorm » Thu May 08, 2008 5:43 pm

lost_shaman wrote:Of course any speculation like this must also assume that at some point in this time frame a 'secret' decision was made somewhere that changed the focus on the 'UFO Phenomena' from one of discovering what exactly the 'phenomena' is to one that focused on using the 'phenomena' for intel/counterinteligence purposes.

I beleive this 'secret' decision was made at least in the US in 1953 ... with the Robertson Panel. Which resulted in the following:

Joint-Army-Navy-Air Force Publication 147 (JANAP 146) of December 1953 made reprinting of any UFO sighting to the public a crime under the Espionage Act, with fines of up to ten thousand dollars and imprisonment ranging from one to ten years.

Air Force Regulation 200-2 (AFR 200-2) made all sighting reports submitted to the air force classified material and prohibited the release of any information about UFO sightings unless the sighting was able to be positively identified.

And a revision of AFR 200-2 allowed the military to give the FBI the names of people who were "illegally or deceptively bringing the subject [of UFOs] to public attention".

IMHO .... the Robertson Panel took the UFO Phenomena from other US agencies trying to discover what exactly the 'phenomena' is... and placed it in the CIA's domain for purposes that are still unclear to me. Purpose of psychological warfare vis-a-vis the USSR ... some effort to control the fact that we actually had made contact and/or recovered alien technology ... an effort to study information dissemination thru memes etc. ... or to control the eventual disclosure of the truth?
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Re: Dulce

Postby ryguy » Fri May 09, 2008 2:11 pm

packetStorm wrote:IMHO .... the Robertson Panel took the UFO Phenomena from other US agencies trying to discover what exactly the 'phenomena' is... and placed it in the CIA's domain for purposes that are still unclear to me. Purpose of psychological warfare vis-a-vis the USSR ... some effort to control the fact that we actually had made contact and/or recovered alien technology ... an effort to study information dissemination thru memes etc. ... or to control the eventual disclosure of the truth?


Personally I lean toward option (B) in regards to CIA - An effort to study information dissemination through memes. Additionally an effort to monitor and "test" a field where foreign agents, some with harmful intent toward U.S. intel interests, are plentiful and roaming in search of ex-military and ex-intel members who retain clearances in order to "recruit" them.

Additionally, one or more private splinter groups, unattached to the government, who appear to have knowledge of the CIA's true intent and methods with regards to this phenomenon (due to past work and clearances), have utilized the social side-effects of those methods in order to draw in personal financial benefits for themselves. It's not obvious to those who haven't dug deeply into these activities - but once you do, it's like discovering a parasite that has been attached to a host for a very long time - undetected.

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