with UFOs, where are we?

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with UFOs, where are we?

Postby zplix » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:25 pm

HI :D this is my first post

I am sure there is much I may ask, and want to explore already existing in vatrious thread archives, and even present ones going on. But for simplicity sake if we can address my question here in this thread that's be great

Which is, : where are we with the UFO question. I have lost faith with Greer and his DP. lots of words words words, no solid evidence. maybe much disinformation...?

I have lost faith in William Lyne after som epersonal correspondence where he reveals a very rigid objectivist and positivist attitude about reality

But I am sure there IS something going on.

Now how are we going to find out? suggestions please 8)
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Postby caryn » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:06 pm

Seems you already answered your question:

"lots of words words words, no solid evidence."
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Postby zplix » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:27 pm

haha..........no i dont mean that. if we cant use words thers no point us being at this forum, right?

what do you think the central key is throughout all the different points of view? Hidden technology?
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Postby ryguy » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:23 am

zplix wrote:what do you think the central key is throughout all the different points of view? Hidden technology?


Welcome zplix - thanks for the post. It's always good to see people not only lurking but posting, so it's good to see your post.

I see the question as very, very general, because there are so many aspects to UFO sightings.

(1) The cases generated by the attention-seeking hoaxters.
(2) Cases generated by crackpots.
(3) Cases generated by sightings of experimental test flights.
(4) Unexplainable cases where pilots (or ground crew) see a craft also spotted on radar.
(5) Cases generated by spiritual/metaphysical experiences that have real physical manifestations.

There may be other causes of such sightings that I can't think of at the moment. But as you can see even from the list of 5 - one, several, or all of them could be true...and the explanation for each of them could actually be different.

So it all depends on what type of experience you're asking about?

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Postby zplix » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:12 pm

ryguy wrote:
zplix wrote:what do you think the central key is throughout all the different points of view? Hidden technology?


Welcome zplix - thanks for the post. It's always good to see people not only lurking but posting, so it's good to see your post.

I see the question as very, very general, because there are so many aspects to UFO sightings.

(1) The cases generated by the attention-seeking hoaxters.
(2) Cases generated by crackpots.
(3) Cases generated by sightings of experimental test flights.
(4) Unexplainable cases where pilots (or ground crew) see a craft also spotted on radar.
(5) Cases generated by spiritual/metaphysical experiences that have real physical manifestations.

There may be other causes of such sightings that I can't think of at the moment. But as you can see even from the list of 5 - one, several, or all of them could be true...and the explanation for each of them could actually be different.

So it all depends on what type of experience you're asking about?

-Ry


OK, if i can take each one of your categories and try get to the bottom what you mean by them. Then we know what we are talking about
:D

"1) The cases generated by the attention-seeking hoaxters."

When you say 'cases generated' what do you include in this. Videos. photos, 'channelers', and even testimonies from say the Disclosure Project?

"(2) Cases generated by crackpots."

How do you mean by 'crackpots'. I ask this because I wonder about your definition of that term.

"(3) Cases generated by sightings of experimental test flights."

By this do you mean secret but 'orthodox' technology, like say 'Stealth'? Or do you include flying saucer shapes, and weird shapes. Ie., UFOs?

"4) Unexplainable cases where pilots (or ground crew) see a craft also spotted on radar."

Only yesterday, I was reading an interview with Jacques Vallee, where he recounted this tale of a pilot who had seen something unexplainable, but said it was impossible to report it as he would be dismissed as 'crazy'. Ie., this is why I need to know what you mean by 'crackpot'.

"(5) Cases generated by spiritual/metaphysical experiences that have real physical manifestations."

What do you mean here? Are you suggesting there are two types of UFOs, material and spiritual?
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Postby ryguy » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:13 pm

zplix wrote:OK, if i can take each one of your categories and try get to the bottom what you mean by them. Then we know what we are talking about
:D


Ok that's fine. Just please keep in mind two important points. My general response was that the field of UFOlogy covers a huge range of concepts, experiences and topics. There is no one "type" of UFO. And my list above is only one stab, only a start, and is very incomplete. I'll bet readers out there (or you) could add many more to the list.


"1) The cases generated by the attention-seeking hoaxters."

When you say 'cases generated' what do you include in this. Videos. photos, 'channelers', and even testimonies from say the Disclosure Project?


Yes. By "cases generated" I mean anecdotal evidence where a person says "I had this experience, and this is what it was..." This particular category #1 are the stories told by people who never had the experience, but fabricate it for their own private motives (too many possible motives to outline here in one post).

"(2) Cases generated by crackpots."

How do you mean by 'crackpots'. I ask this because I wonder about your definition of that term.


"Crackpots" is my non-PC term for a person who may be either diagnosed or non-diagnosed, but who suffers from physical and emotional symptoms of a disease like schitzophrenia - where delusions experienced by patients are believed to be true.

An example of how this category (2) and the category above (1) can both be true would be where a paranoid schitzophrenic believes that he is being contacted by the CIA and DIA - he sees real people, holds conversations with them - the works, in addition to seeing "UFO's"....all the while it is an elaborate delusion (case studies of this disease are abundant and I can forward if you're interested - see the movie "A Beautiful Mind" for a great example of one true case). The belief in this delusion leads this person to get involved in UFOlogy and introduce stories into the field about their experiences - which are nothing more than a delusion that they believe 100%. They aren't lying...they just don't realize that they are very sick.

"(3) Cases generated by sightings of experimental test flights."

By this do you mean secret but 'orthodox' technology, like say 'Stealth'? Or do you include flying saucer shapes, and weird shapes. Ie., UFOs?


Yes - and no. Yes I'm refering to secret but orthodox technology like the sightings caused by the Stealth during its early days of development. No - I do not include, in this category, the more impressive, odd, and unexplainable sightings.

"4) Unexplainable cases where pilots (or ground crew) see a craft also spotted on radar."

Only yesterday, I was reading an interview with Jacques Vallee, where he recounted this tale of a pilot who had seen something unexplainable, but said it was impossible to report it as he would be dismissed as 'crazy'. Ie., this is why I need to know what you mean by 'crackpot'.


Good question - so to clarify, "crackpot" would be a person suffering from a very real mental illness. Should they seek help, a trained professional will be able to quickly diagnose them as having all of the symptoms of a particular mental disease. On the other hand, there are sightings by guys who have seen something unexplainable - and if they were to seek professional help, the professional would state that they do not display all of the necessary symptoms to be classified as mentally ill....they simply saw something that they can not explain. This is a category in itself - because the witness is not mentally ill.

Yes...it's too easy to call witnesses "crackpots"....however the flip side of that is that "crackpots" really do generate noise in this system....this is noise that needs to be seperated from the real signal.

"(5) Cases generated by spiritual/metaphysical experiences that have real physical manifestations."

What do you mean here? Are you suggesting there are two types of UFOs, material and spiritual?


Yes. Not "types of UFOs" - but types of UFO sightings. The category above of a trained and sane pilot, coupled with radar signatures - is one type of sighting. This is the category of UFO's that really interest men like Vallee...because they know that this is where the truth behind the real UFO sightings are.

This last category involves people who are having what I would classify as a spiritual experience. There are many reading this, I am sure, who would disagree with me that this category even exists. So this is only my opinion, but I believe people have spiritual experiences where they see entities and lights in the sky or in their home. Some of the folks with a preexisting interest in "UFO's" immediately classify their sighting as a "UFO".

***

My point above was only that to ask "where are we on UFOs?" is to attempt to wrap up a multitude of experiences and causes for the sightings into a nice neat nutshell with a bow on top. I'm just not sure it's that easy....as Vallee once pointed out in an interview, all of these cases need to be examined on a case by case basis...preferably non-public cases that haven't attracted too much interest. Because, with interest, come the "crackpots" and hoaxers.

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Postby zplix » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:25 pm

OK. But also, as not presuming to wrap it all up with a neat little bow on top, one also has to understand the presumptions one may approach this subject with.

I am not comfortable with your definition of someone as a 'crackpot'. The reasons being that the so-called 'mental illness is organic' presumption of our culture is a myth. There is no actual scientific proof for that assertion (Szasz, Baughman, Breggin, etc). So to add insult to injury by calling people so falsely labeled as 'mentally ill' ) 'crackpots', is not good.
Also that presumption causes 'noise', because it means that all kinds of people can be hjudged to be 'crackpots', including pilots, and people claiming spiritual experiences. Only yesterday, I read an interview with Jacques Vallee, where he tells of a pilot who did see some unexplainable phenomena in the sky, but feared reporting it for fear of being seen to be 'crazy' and losing his career! So do you see? The very climate we are in studying about this needs being made aware of.
And let me add, Vallee himself has admitted that the Military covertly possess and use psychological warfare weapons that can induce in people the hearing of voices, etc, which bio-psychiatry terms 'schizophrenia'. So again this makes it very important to be aware of that. And to know what kind of culture we are dealing with.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:34 pm

Hi zplix, welcome to the forum.

Only yesterday, I read an interview with Jacques Vallee, where he tells of a pilot who did see some unexplainable phenomena in the sky, but feared reporting it for fear of being seen to be 'crazy' and losing his career! So do you see? The very climate we are in studying about this needs being made aware of.


I'm not so sure that applies any more. More and more pilots are willing to come forward and report it when they see something strange in the sky. There were a couple of cases earlier this year (Isle of Man, or do I have my islands mixed up?) and I saw a very interesting documentary on the History Channel recently which dealt exclusively with reports by pilots and the like - in some cases backed up by technology on the ground and other pilots in the air at the time.

I'm not saying they all saw alien spaceships, but they certainly saw something.

The alleged 'fastwalker' radar returns are very interesting too.

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Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:41 am

zplix wrote:But I am sure there IS something going on.

Curiously not so much anymore apparently… maybe “they” are camera and crowd shy? :)

zplix wrote:Now how are we going to find out? suggestions please 8)

You’re not… as others have pointed out there’s no one single answer that can satisfactorily explain every case… at least not one everyone would accept.

I predict proponents of the ETH (in the US) won’t get the confirmation they seek until say an alien spaceship lands on the White House lawn for all the world to see… of course that doesn’t rule out the possibility of an alien spaceship landing in a different country. :)

[can you tell I don’t buy the Cold War era notion of a cover-up?]

That said, until/if something extraordinary like that happens, personally I don’t have any problem with a little mystery in the world.

zplix wrote:flying saucer

Hmmm…

What happened to all the flying saucers?
http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-the ... ucers.html

Psychosocial Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial_Hypothesis

Anyway, in general I would like to reiterate Ry’s point… the signal to noise ratio is so miserably low thanks to the hoaxers, charlatans, and “psychologically challenged” folks that run rampant through this field there is very little incentive for anyone to take the subject seriously… especially scientists!

[historically we already know those firmly entrenched in the ET camp wouldn’t accept their conclusions anyway (e.g. insufficient data at best) so what’s the point?]

Survival of our species is arguably an infinitely more pressing matter...
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Postby Chorlton » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:28 am

Ive always been of a mind to deny that pilots etc are any more qualified, or their reports are any more reliable than anyone elses. (I mean look at John Lear !)
I would suspect there are an equal amount of 'imaginative' pilots as non pilots and an equal amount of misunderstood aerial ,Weather/Electro magnetic/gravity related phenomena than ground based.

However, those with related Radar corroboration I do take seriously.

Many moons ago before all the security issues, I was allowed to sit 'up front' on a 747 flight from Bangkok to London on a night flight. I was quite surprised at the things I could see zipping around many miles higher than our airplane and when I asked was told it was probably electically based. never did find out any more though.
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Postby zplix » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:44 am

Access Denied wrote:
zplix wrote:But I am sure there IS something going on.

Curiously not so much anymore apparently… maybe “they” are camera and crowd shy? :)

Well, the link you gave. its really just a so-called skeptic's opinion. I can vouch that I have seen recent sightings of unexplainable phenomena. And trying to suggest it is just from the past still doesn't explain what the phenomena may be. Also we have to also remember the Disclosure Project!

Access Denied wrote:
zplix wrote:Now how are we going to find out? suggestions please 8)

You’re not… as others have pointed out there’s no one single answer that can satisfactorily explain every case… at least not one everyone would accept.

I predict proponents of the ETH (in the US) won’t get the confirmation they seek until say an alien spaceship lands on the White House lawn for all the world to see… of course that doesn’t rule out the possibility of an alien spaceship landing in a different country. :)

[can you tell I don’t buy the Cold War era notion of a cover-up?]

That said, until/if something extraordinary like that happens, personally I don’t have any problem with a little mystery in the world.

zplix wrote:flying saucer

Hmmm…

What happened to all the flying saucers?
http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-the ... ucers.html

Psychosocial Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial_Hypothesis

Anyway, in general I would like to reiterate Ry’s point… the signal to noise ratio is so miserably low thanks to the hoaxers, charlatans, and “psychologically challenged” folks that run rampant through this field there is very little incentive for anyone to take the subject seriously… especially scientists!

[historically we already know those firmly entrenched in the ET camp wouldn’t accept their conclusions anyway (e.g. insufficient data at best) so what’s the point?]

Survival of our species is arguably an infinitely more pressing matter...

Well you raise some interesting points. Ie., the idea that it may be some for of psychosocial hallucination is a Jungian idea. I actually have that book from years back, and believed it for a while. But i am afraid it is only partial, and also doesn't get to the gist. because it presumes we understand what consciousness is, and we dont. Science does NOT understand consciousness. so dismissing stuff it doesn't understand as 'oh its hallucination!" is a major copout 8)

Now I also deeply worry about the state of the planet, and all species including us. And I explore all about this also at other forums etc. But i do not tend to compartmentalize subjects. In fact all these subjects are interelated. For example, have you ever heard of Future Combat Systems (FCS)? per chance?
I would be quite surprised if you had because this news never seems to reach manstream news. What is it? it is a new form of warfare that is quite covert. And involves using robots and umanned remotecontrolled vehicles in war, and creating virtual scenarios, etc. . Now connect the dots with that and even more possible covert technology!
This is why it is very important we face what is going on, quite meticulously.

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Postby Chorlton » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:52 pm

zplix wrote:This is why it is very important we face what is going on, quite meticulously.


Facing something is one thing, doing anything or having the wherewithall to do anything about it is another.
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Postby ryguy » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:38 pm

zplix wrote:In fact all these subjects are interelated. For example, have you ever heard of Future Combat Systems (FCS)? per chance?
I would be quite surprised if you had because this news never seems to reach manstream news. What is it? it is a new form of warfare that is quite covert.


Nothing very secret about it....and don't forget that most people here are not only interested in the various paranormal phenomenon, but also have a very keen interest in science and technology. So I would be more surprised if there are many who haven't heard of FCS.

For example, during the early discussions about the "drone" pictures, one of my initial hypothesis posted in that thread was that the sighting (if the pictures were even real) could have been a covert test of one of the latest series of UAV's. Your statement above that all of these subjects are interelated is absolutely true.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:08 pm

zplix wrote:For example, have you ever heard of Future Combat Systems (FCS)? per chance?


I've worked on one, small aspect of it (Kinetic Energy Interceptor). It is NOT one thing, but a broad architectural concept for the transformation of warfare towards greater use of (not surprising) networked information. Words like "net-centric" and "net-ready" are a standard part of the aerospace/defense system development business these days.

I would be quite surprised if you had because this news never seems to reach manstream news.


Depends on what you call "mainstream". Many people are more interested in Paris Hilton and Britney Spears than they are about advances in warfighting. But it is NOT covert. Ever see the show Futureweapons on the Military Channel? (Formerly the Wings channel). The host has introduced a large number of new, individual weapons concepts that are all tied together under the FCS umbrella.

What is it? it is a new form of warfare that is quite covert.


No, it isn't. At least not any more covert than typical warfare modernization programs. In fact, it is quite a bit LESS covert than things like new, advanced aircraft (i.e. stealth, etc.). THAT is covert. FCS is extremely overt. You can find a lot about it on the web even:

http://www.army.mil/fcs/

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/ic/ ... index.html

http://science.howstuffworks.com/fcs.htm

Not very covert at all. I work on REAL covert stuff. And that is all I can say in that regard.

And involves using robots and umanned remotecontrolled vehicles in war, and creating virtual scenarios, etc. .


Yes, that is part of it. But not all of it.

Now connect the dots with that and even more possible covert technology!
This is why it is very important we face what is going on, quite meticulously.


And this is PRECISELY where people run into trouble: "Connecting the dots". What that really means is "letting your mind run wild" or more simply "extrapolating". There is a term in aviation for how one extrapolates when they have lost all their instruments: "Dead Reckoning". And the use of DEAD reminds you just how tenuous is this "reckoning". It is the problem of "extrapolation" that gets people who are wrapped-up in UFOs in trouble. For example, Exopolitics is nothing but one HUGE extrapolation. They THINK there is solid evidence that we have visitors, and so they extrapolate a conclusion that these visitors are ethical and ready to deal with us on a even stance. Pretty dangerous, and dumb, extrapolation if you ask me. Didn't seem to work well for the Aztecs when Cortez showed up! :)

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Postby zplix » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:11 pm

Chorlton wrote:
zplix wrote:This is why it is very important we face what is going on, quite meticulously.


Facing something is one thing, doing anything or having the wherewithall to do anything about it is another.


First we have to begin facing it, right? Otherwise your lookin the other way
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