with UFOs, where are we?

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Postby zplix » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:29 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
zplix wrote:For example, have you ever heard of Future Combat Systems (FCS)? per chance?


I've worked on one, small aspect of it (Kinetic Energy Interceptor). It is NOT one thing, but a broad architectural concept for the transformation of warfare towards greater use of (not surprising) networked information. Words like "net-centric" and "net-ready" are a standard part of the aerospace/defense system development business these days.

I would be quite surprised if you had because this news never seems to reach manstream news.


Depends on what you call "mainstream". Many people are more interested in Paris Hilton and Britney Spears than they are about advances in warfighting. But it is NOT covert. Ever see the show Futureweapons on the Military Channel? (Formerly the Wings channel). The host has introduced a large number of new, individual weapons concepts that are all tied together under the FCS umbrella.

What is it? it is a new form of warfare that is quite covert.


No, it isn't. At least not any more covert than typical warfare modernization programs. In fact, it is quite a bit LESS covert than things like new, advanced aircraft (i.e. stealth, etc.). THAT is covert. FCS is extremely overt. You can find a lot about it on the web even:

http://www.army.mil/fcs/

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/ic/ ... index.html

http://science.howstuffworks.com/fcs.htm

Not very covert at all. I work on REAL covert stuff. And that is all I can say in that regard.

And involves using robots and umanned remotecontrolled vehicles in war, and creating virtual scenarios, etc. .


Yes, that is part of it. But not all of it.

Now connect the dots with that and even more possible covert technology!
This is why it is very important we face what is going on, quite meticulously.


And this is PRECISELY where people run into trouble: "Connecting the dots". What that really means is "letting your mind run wild" or more simply "extrapolating". There is a term in aviation for how one extrapolates when they have lost all their instruments: "Dead Reckoning". And the use of DEAD reminds you just how tenuous is this "reckoning". It is the problem of "extrapolation" that gets people who are wrapped-up in UFOs in trouble. For example, Exopolitics is nothing but one HUGE extrapolation. They THINK there is solid evidence that we have visitors, and so they extrapolate a conclusion that these visitors are ethical and ready to deal with us on a even stance. Pretty dangerous, and dumb, extrapolation if you ask me. Didn't seem to work well for the Aztecs when Cortez showed up! :)

Ray


HI....OK i would like to ask you how you feel workin on such as the FCS, but this thread's complex enough. so i'll leave that personal question for now anyhow, regarding your comments about my 'connecting the dots' encouragement.
I agree that term's a bit of a cliche, but i am VERY much into the essence of what i means. Its the way i research actually.
I dig what you mean about exopolitcs. I also have trouble with much of whats passed there as 'fact'....so what do i mean then when i say connect the dots in realtion to what we're lookin at?

Connecting the dots is being open to seeing PATTERNS...even those who consider themselves ever so sceintific may be SO specilaized and blinkered they fail to see patterns, or apply what they do to actual living. I will give you a good example: Bill Mollison, co-creator of Permaculture stressed that physicists, even though they may do very complex math about relatrinships, conserving energy, etc etc yet will go home and live completely wastefully and unimtelligently! And not be aware they're doing so

So continuing about the topic then. Wasn't it Eisenhower who warned about the gorwing power of the militray industrial complex, and all justified and hidden behind the national security act? so thats a big part of the pattern right? because then we get all these pieces. people reporting strange craft, of the military arriving in places such and such unexplainable event has happened and remving stuff and even topsoil

You calim FCS is 'overt'. I dare tto ask 20 people in the street what it is, and i can bet they wont know! Yet it is to do with a new form of warfare, which you agree.
Where I heard first about it was here http://www.911movement.org and how it was used on 9/11 as like a 'debut' for a 'new world order'

most of this is in plain sight. by this i mean, the actual plans for the stranglehold over us, other species and the planet is spoken of, advancing, but many people dont know whats going on. Likewise advanced technology is seen in our skies. Who is in it? is it manned? what what.? we are finding out. ..these are all dots right? I as an individual have the right and freedom to excercise my natural curiousity and not be suppressed by those who claim they 'know' how to do it. well? What is connection with media and MIC. that also is connecting the dots!
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:32 pm

zplix,

zplix wrote:Connecting the dots is being open to seeing PATTERNS...


I understand, but what verification or validation do you have that any such patterns are real, and actually represent reality. This is where "connecting the dots" (extrapolation) has trouble... you can convince yourself that something is right (or real) without evidence that it is so.

I will give you a good example: Bill Mollison, co-creator of Permaculture stressed that physicists, even though they may do very complex math about relatrinships, conserving energy, etc etc yet will go home and live completely wastefully and unimtelligently! And not be aware they're doing so


Believe me, I understand this completely. It is a result of ignorance, which is curable. I work with many young engineers who have the title "systems engineer", and yet once they walk out the door from work their use of the techniques of systems engineering stops. Some of them have serious financial problems and don't even know how to balance their checkbook. I always ask them "why do you consistently avoid applying systems engineering to your personal life, to achieve higher levels of effectiveness?" The answer begins with ignorance and also includes obstinance. Some people are just too lazy.


You calim FCS is 'overt'. I dare tto ask 20 people in the street what it is, and i can bet they wont know!


Again, this is ignorance. This is totally separate and has nothing to do with "covertness". Do you understand that? I just showed you several (of many) websites where people can educate themselves on what FCS is. The fact that such people would rather pay more attention to Paris Hilton, or what some conspiracy theorists tell them is true, rather than going out and learning on their own does NOT make FCS covert. Covert would be if there were NO WAY for people to know about something....such as real secret and top secret projects. FCS could hardly be termed covert if the Army has a website telling you an awful lot about it, and confirming that it exists.

Where I heard first about it was here http://www.911movement.org and how it was used on 9/11 as like a 'debut' for a 'new world order'


Sadly, I am pretty sure I know where this is going. Let me just say that I think you should question your source. They want you to believe THEIR story. What makes you think (if FCS really were covert) that the people running that website would have actual insight into what FCS is about? I don't wish to insult you, and don't want to go into a 9-11 topic in this thread, but there are serious problems and holes in virtually ALL 9-11 conspiracy theories. The fact that people who desperately want to believe the conspiracy theories are true ignore these holes does not mean their conspiracy theories are true and/or validated. It only means they choose their evidence, rather than looking at it all.

I as an individual have the right and freedom to excercise my natural curiousity and not be suppressed by those who claim they 'know' how to do it.


Yes, you certainly do. But again, just because you come to a conclusion by "connecting the dots" does not mean your conclusion is real, or even supported by evidence.

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Postby Chorlton » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:30 pm

zplix wrote:You calim FCS is 'overt'. I dare tto ask 20 people in the street what it is, and i can bet they wont know! Yet it is to do with a new form of warfare, which you agree.
Where I heard first about it was here http://www.911movement.org and how it was used on 9/11 as like a 'debut' for a 'new world order'


Oh dear and there was I thinking it was simply 2 airplanes that were crashed into the WT Towers on 11/9 and 'New World Order' ?? Oh please.

Are you a disinfo agent sent here from ATS ??
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Postby zplix » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:44 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:zplix,

zplix wrote:Connecting the dots is being open to seeing PATTERNS...


I understand, but what verification or validation do you have that any such patterns are real, and actually represent reality. This is where "connecting the dots" (extrapolation) has trouble... you can convince yourself that something is right (or real) without evidence that it is so.


The validation and verication come from my flexible, free willed awareness of connective patterns. Which are very MUCH reality! I dont need your authority and/or scientific method to validate my experience of this world. THAT is the problem with people being dumbed down and made to feel they need experts to think for them, and tell them what 'real reality' really is. I say that is BS. 8) i dont do it that way. like you seem to think you have the authority to question my judgement, I am not under your presumptious power. Whereas some gullible people may believe you, and stop looking, feeling, and thinking.

Now, back to patterns. It is quite clear to me the patterns that interconnect and create the cage most people find themselves in. I dig you dont want to talk '9/11', as this thread is about where we are with UFOs, but i will just say :) ...that
you are completely blind if YOU do not see the glaring holes in the OFFICIAL conspiracy theory. it is totally and utterly absurd.

Not only that. The plans of the ruling elite have been spoken of 'in plain sight' on numerous occasions--about creating a New World Order (NWO). And yes, people could--if they had initiative Google all this...................................But, young man, they do not! And the reason they do not is also part of the pattern I am exploring.
So for example, we just broached 9/11--or I did--and I mentioned about definate plans of the elite for a NWO. right? And I just made a claim that the majority of people, despite watching the TV, reading papers, do-not-know about this. So now I am going to find out why this should be. this is called research. And it demands a mind that is not fettered by what authority says it should believe is reality, or what questions it should ask, etc.

So, through free inquiry we, for example, find out about this character called Edward Bernays. Have you heard of him? I am betting you haven't :omg: ..but he is well worth to get to know about. Because he was known as the ']master of spin' and encouraging the manipulation of the 'masses' WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE

diggin it?

So, yes, getting back to FCS. Sure, there may BE sites where you can get this info. YET many people do not know about their terrible plans of 'future' warfare.
(especially in relation to the 9/11 event!). Like their young soldiers didn't/don't know about the terrible dangers of Depleted Uranium, even though you can get information about that online also.
You don't seem to understand how disinformation works, which is mindcontrol. This is a very important part of the pattern you need to look at.

What I am trying to show you is the devious nature of mindcontrol. And YOU have to have a very flexible mind, to see what is going on.

So with UFOs --at last :lol: ...maybe these too are in plain sight. I mean people have seen them right? what was the Phoenix Lights all about? Or have you worked that out already? Was it reality or unreality, do you think?
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:45 pm

Nothing that you have presented is new to me. In fact, quite the opposite. But I am sure you realize that just because people do not believe what you believe does not mean they are mind-conrolled, nor that anything of what you believe is necessarily true. Right? RIGHT?

Which are very MUCH reality! I dont need your authority and/or scientific method to validate my experience of this world.


I never claimed authority, so of course you don't need that. But I am afraid that you do need the scientific method (or something RIGOROUS and OBJECTIVE like it) otherwise you will arrive at false conclusions. For example, it is well known through objective, experimental data that the human senses are limited. There are entire hosts of examples that can be presented to you that will exhibit how your senses can be fooled into thinking something is really "there" when it is not. Human eyes are some of the easiest sensory devices to fool. As just one example:

http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/mod ... usions.png

So you see, if all you rely on is your experience, and you do not have a "control group" (scientific method) that acts as an independent, unconnected means for verification, I am afraid you are more subject to being gullible than those who adhere to the scientific method. You may not like that, but I am sorry, this is factual.

Now, back to patterns. It is quite clear to me the patterns that interconnect and create the cage most people find themselves in.


Yes, patterns. Just like the patterns in the picture at the above URL. That pattern would seem to tell you, if you did not apply an objective measure, that the horizontal lines are NOT parallel. How do you account for the FACT that your experiences and observations can, indeed, be wrong. How do you ferret error out of your approach? (And I hope you are not going to respond with the tired old "logic and common sense").

And I just made a claim that the majority of people, despite watching the TV, reading papers, do-not-know about this.


There is also the very real possibility that a GREAT MANY people know about the conspiracy angles you espouse... and spent about 10 minutes looking into them before they figured out how biased and incorrect they are. I mean really, do you think anyone who surfs the net or watches even a BIT of TV have not been exposed to the LIES and BIASED EDITING of things like the "Loose Change" video? I need only point out ONE case of extremely biased editing of that video... and a normal person would come to the conclusion that they are manipulating facts to make you believe something that there is LOTS of evidence to show is not true. Would you like to see just one irrefutable fact of biased editing?

You don't seem to understand how disinformation works, which is mindcontrol.


And you have not done much research on me before you say this. Believe me, many people here will vouch for just how much I know about the topic of information in general. Enough to tell you that information or "disinformation" is certainly NOT mind control. Mind control stems from what you believe. And if you are willing to believe something without various forms of corroborating evidence (there's that scientific method again) then you MAY be on your way to ALLOWING yourself to be mind controlled.

Which brings up an interesting question: How can YOU be so positively certain that YOU are not being "mind controlled" by the sources of information that you choose to believe? Seems you think your sources are above being impeachable, and I can assure you they are far from it.

This is a very important part of the pattern you need to look at.


Now you are telling me what I have to do....to "free myself from the mind control" that YOU have judged me to be under? All I can say to that is to merely quote your own words:

I am not under your presumptious power.
snip
You don't seem to understand how disinformation works.


And as far as:
And YOU have to have a very flexible mind, to see what is going on.


I hope you realize that a mind can be TOO flexible...so flexible that it bends at the smallest whim to change its beliefs. As with all things in the real world, there is a fine balance that needs to be maintained between flexibility and rigidity. It would appear to me that you have given up a great deal of rigidity, especially with regard to validation of facts from sources external to your experience.

what was the Phoenix Lights all about? Or have you worked that out already?


Are you aware of the gunnery and bombing range in the Arizona desert just behind the mountains you see those lights "setting" behind as they fall? It is called the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range. And have you bothered to look at an aviation map of Arizona to see just how much of the southern part of that state is designated as MOA (Military Operations Area)? And do you know what a flare looks like as it falls in the night sky? And are you aware that these types of flares are specifically designed to fall SLOWLY (as shown in the Phoenix Lights) specifically to maximize their illumination of potential targets beneath them?

It would seem you have come to the conclusion that the more likely explanation (flares from A-10s that practice their maneuvers specifically in that area) is unbelievable, and the LESS LIKELY explanation is totally believeable.

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Postby ryguy » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:04 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:So you see, if all you rely on is your experience, and you do not have a "control group" (scientific method) that acts as an independent, unconnected means for verification, I am afraid you are more subject to being gullible than those who adhere to the scientific method. You may not like that, but I am sorry, this is factual.


Very well written Ray...

You don't seem to understand how disinformation works, which is mindcontrol.


And you have not done much research on me before you say this. Believe me, many people here will vouch for just how much I know about the topic of information in general.


Absolutely - Ray has been researching the various types and effects of information for a very long time, and a quick look around this site alone will show you how deeply he has gone into this topic.

I hope you realize that a mind can be TOO flexible...so flexible that it bends at the smallest whim to change its beliefs. As with all things in the real world, there is a fine balance that needs to be maintained between flexibility and rigidity. It would appear to me that you have given up a great deal of rigidity, especially with regard to validation of facts from sources external to your experience.


It's very difficult for people to seek out validation of facts from sources that fall outside the realm of one's personal experience. The same can be said for us....sometimes it's important to take into account the experiences of a person who has paranormal experiences in order to validate or invalidate our own hypothesis... It's difficult for people to branch outside of their small sphere of sources, because they're comfortable and confident that their personal beliefs can be validated. To branch outside of that sphere often times can invalidate a personal belief....and it takes a great deal of open-mindedness and courage to do so. 9-11 is a good example...many of those who believe that there's a government conspiracy choose to ignore all official sources, including the police and the firemen who were there on the scene. They brush aside their statements saying "they are part of the cover-up".

The fall of major corporations guilty of wrong-doing because of whistleblowers is a testament to the inability of groups (yes, even the rich and 'powerful') to control the minds and hearts of everyone. There will always be one or two "little guys" who have been blessed with character and a strong resolve to do the right thing.

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Postby zplix » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:54 pm

OMG have I got my work cut out with you two!

Actually, maybe it's not worth any effort, as your rigidity seems to overwhelm any potential flexibility............first. lets get the Phoenix Lights outta the way...? Did it not occur to you that your 'explanation' is rather pathetic, and treats the people/observers of Phoenix as though they are some fools who wouldn't--having being residents of there --know the DIFFERENCE between tthe silly example you give and some remarkable unexplianable event, that even got world news coverage...? Please do not insult theirs or my intelligence. seriously . please view Vhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhAQrR8Jhkk

Your whole attitude I am familiar also. it is positivist and objectivist, and I feel sad you are into that cult and i'll tell ya why: It makes you distrust your very being, your very sensual being and essence.
Of course there is a place for analysis and scientific inquiry, but when it takes over all, even your own sensual awareness of reality it becomes scientism

that means science stickin its nose in where it is out of its depth. Scientism is very dangerous, and this culture is in the stranglehold of it. It is destroying the world, Indigenous peoples, many species, etc etc. it is blind and dumb and withOUT any sense or feeling!

And by the way, notice you conveniently forgot to mention about Edward Bernays. So I will ask agin. When I mentioned him last post, had you heard of him?...I'll know if your lyin' 8) what do you think about him, and what he was about in relation to what we are broaching here?
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:08 pm

This is getting really funny. :lol:



zplix wrote:first. lets get the Phoenix Lights outta the way...? Did it not occur to you that your 'explanation' is rather pathetic, and treats the people/observers of Phoenix as though they are some fools who wouldn't--having being residents of there --know the DIFFERENCE between tthe silly example you give and some remarkable unexplianable event, that even got world news coverage...? Please do not insult theirs or my intelligence. seriously


Now here is something you do not know. I was there, and saw the Phoenix Lights first-hand. At the time we were doing flight testing of the MD-10 modernzaition program of the DC-10 for FedEx. The flight testing was ongoing out of Williams Gateway airport, at the SouthEast edge of Mesa. That afternoon I had traveled up to North Phoenix to do simulator testing at the Honeywell facility on Deer Valley Road. Autopilot software load verification testing before we put it on the airplane to fly. And it was while walking out of Honeywell that evening after testing that myself and a colleague saw the lights. We watched them drop behind the hills between Phoenix and Gila Bend. We, as direct witnesses with experience in aerospace vehicles and operations, were quite certain what we were seeing. Flares.

So now, you being mister "trust your senses and experiences", are you now going to tell me (since I presume you were NOT in Phoenix to witness the lights firsthand) that somehow YOU KNOW BETTER than I, a direct witness, what was going on? Please....explain this one to me! I should get a laugh out of how you are going to tell me what I saw!!! :roll:

Your whole attitude I am familiar also. it is positivist and objectivist, and I feel sad you are into that cult and i'll tell ya why: It makes you distrust your very being, your very sensual being and essence.
Of course there is a place for analysis and scientific inquiry, but when it takes over all, even your own sensual awareness of reality it becomes scientism


And once again I find it absolutely comical that you rush right ahead to pass judgement on me without even taking the time to read some of my past posts on this forum. For if you had, you would see that I also espouse a BALANCE between Science and Spirituality. So you might be surprised that I share, by a small modicum of reasoning, SOME of your feelings about when science becomes TOO rigid. Glad you think you know me. But clearly, you don't. Maybe you would enjoy reading some of my posts before you sling your next piece of uninformed, speculative judgment about me and my beliefs and systems of investigation?

And by the way, notice you conveniently forgot to mention about Edward Bernays. So I will ask agin. When I mentioned him last post, had you heard of him?...I'll know if your lyin' 8) what do you think about him, and what he was about in relation to what we are broaching here?[/i]


Who wouldn't know the father of Public Relations? And if you are going to pin all of the things we have discussed here on nothing more than "PR and disinfo by the big, bad guvmint" I am afraid you are taking the easy way out... blaming something that you have no evidence to support, simply because you do not like the evidence in existence that supports alternate conclusions.

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Postby zplix » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:25 pm

oh dear. your a disinfo agent. or your just someone who doesn't practice what they preach. ie., you believe in illusory wishful thinking. or both

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0307/debunking.html

Like I said. I do not need you to tell me it was flares witha load of bunkum thrown in. I know what I seen, and your story dont gell. so we very much must agree to disagree. though you are ....funny :lol:

Hmmmmmm you claim to know about Edfward Bernays, for as you CLAIM "who wouldn't know the father of public relations?".......errrrrr not many people actually! And that is a dead giveaway to me you are tellin fibs. Point me to any past post in the archives you've mentioned about him

Also what sounds dodgy is your insistyance that knowing about him has no relevance to our current world situation...?

"And if you are going to pin all of the things we have discussed here on nothing more than "PR and disinfo by the big, bad guvmint" I am afraid you are taking the easy way out... blaming something that you have no evidence to support, simply because you do not like the evidence in existence that supports alternate conclusions. "

Watch this and learn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLTQ-o_B ... cracy.html
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:24 am

zplix wrote:oh dear. your a disinfo agent.


Yes, here we go... forgive me for not being surprised. This is always where such things end up. More stale, unfounded accusations.


or your just someone who doesn't practice what they preach. ie., you believe in illusory wishful thinking. or both

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0307/debunking.html


And just exactly what is this supposed to mean, or prove?

Like I said. I do not need you to tell me it was flares witha load of bunkum thrown in. I know what I seen, and your story dont gell.


So... am I now to understand by this comment that you are claiming that you were also in Phoenix on that night? Now wouldn't THAT be a coincidence?

And that is a dead giveaway to me you are tellin fibs. Point me to any past post in the archives you've mentioned about him


And now you accuse me of lying? Guess such accusations never end with you, huh? I suppose you would claim that the fact that I work in aerospace and possess a secret clearance means I am "in on the conspiracies"? And perhaps you could explain to me why I can ONLY show you posts from this forum to satisfy your proof that I have heard of, and read about Bernays? Are you really as arrogant about believing you know so much about someone you've never met as you portray?



Thank you for adding condescention to your rhetoric. But how could someone with my limited intelligence ever learn from someone as wise and intelligent as you by watching a mere video?

Enjoy your stay in fantasyland...

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Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:46 am

Ray, you dodger you.

Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give good evidence that the Phoenix Lights were definately flares? I haven't seen anything. I have seen an occasional article that says briefly, that some debunkers claim they were flares. But that is it.

Your explanation is lame. As lame as claiming UFO flaps in Mexico are 'party balloons'. It insults the intelligence. It is like you imagine you are talking to children tellin them bout santa. And of course usually is backed up by a philosophy that states we--the children?--dont know how to see and understand reality.

Hillariously ironic is that :lol: :lol:
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Postby Access Denied » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:59 pm

zplix wrote:Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give good evidence that the Phoenix Lights were definately flares?

Well, here’s two excellent articles, one from a “skeptic” Tim Printy…

MARCH 13, 1997: THE ARIZONA UFO's
http://members.aol.com/tprinty/AZUFO.html

By the way, this excerpt from Tim's conclusion points out the critical error you just made in rejecting Ray’s eyewitness testimony…

THE V-FORMATION OF LIGHTS AND MY ANALYSIS
http://members.aol.com/tprinty/azconc.html

KEY WITNESSES WERE IGNORED BY INVESTIGATORS

To determine the possible identity of the objects, we need more witnesses who got a better understanding of what the lights may have been. I was able to find two witnesses that were not discussed by MUFON or NUFORC. MUFON and NUFORC tend to accept the most extraordinary tales to enhance the selling of their UFO story. However, they also adhere to a selection effect (something they accuse skeptics of) to hide any data that is contrary to what they want to portray.

And here's one from a “believer” Bruce Macabee…

Report On Phoenix Light Arrays
http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights1.html

The onus is now on you to systematically point out exactly where both of these men are wrong in their analysis and present your detailed evidence to the contrary since you brought it up. If you refuse then I must conclude you are here simply to disrupt this forum and will act accordingly, cool?

Looking forward to your analysis!

zplix wrote:Your explanation is lame. As lame as claiming UFO flaps in Mexico are 'party balloons'. It insults the intelligence.

Please enlighten us all with your “non-lame” explanation as to why they were not “party balloons”. In particular do you have any evidence that they were alien spaceships? That would be cool!
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Postby murnut » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:44 pm

Sorry to jump in, but these dont look like ballons to me.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/mexicanmilitary.html

It is pointless to debate this really, we all have our own perspective that we bring to the table.

Mine says all is not what it seems

Beyond that I have no answers

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Postby Chorlton » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:45 pm

zplix wrote:Ray, you dodger you.

Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give good evidence that the Phoenix Lights were definately flares? I haven't seen anything. I have seen an occasional article that says briefly, that some debunkers claim they were flares. But that is it.
:


There was a programme here in the UK a few years back and it spent sometime looking at the Phoenix lights. After considering everything and then actually talking to eyewitnesess that were there they came to the conclusion that they were indeed flares. They spent sometime using overlays on the lights with the hills in the background and it was quite easy to see they were indeed slowly descending flares..
But if you wish to continue believing they are something else against overwhelming evidence otherwise or even Occams Razor, fine.
John Lear sells some nice tinfoil hats I hear?
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
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Chorlton
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Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:20 pm

The onus is now on you to systematically point out exactly where both of these men are wrong in their analysis and present your detailed evidence to the contrary since you brought it up. If you refuse then I must conclude you are here simply to disrupt this forum and will act accordingly, cool?


errr what you mean a) I am 'disrupting' the forum? What you mean that i shouldn't have a different view of reality than you, what?

and what do you mean you will 'act accordingly' if you see that i have 'disrupted' the forum, by questioning someone's view of reality?

before i lift a finger i wanna get this ...threat clear? and no, that threat is not 'cool'!
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
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