with UFOs, where are we?

General UFO stories

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:40 pm

zplix wrote:Ray, you dodger you.

Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give good evidence that the Phoenix Lights were definately flares? I haven't seen anything. I have seen an occasional article that says briefly, that some debunkers claim they were flares. But that is it.

Your explanation is lame. As lame as claiming UFO flaps in Mexico are 'party balloons'. It insults the intelligence. It is like you imagine you are talking to children tellin them bout santa. And of course usually is backed up by a philosophy that states we--the children?--dont know how to see and understand reality.

Hillariously ironic is that :lol: :lol:


I am going to stop right now and point something out about how you approach a debate. When I did not say anything with regard to your question about Bernays, you pushed me on it and asked me to reply. In the interest of making sure all bases were covered, I did reply.

But now, if you notice above, I have asked you a specific question where you seemed to imply that you were in Phoenix and were a first-hand witness to the Phoenix Lights. But you have ignored that question and not answered it.

I will go no further until you extend the same courtesy to me that I did to you. Namely, answer my question instead of avoiding it. (And you have the GAUL to call ME a dodger!) :shock:

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA


Postby ryguy » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:41 pm

zplix wrote:and what do you mean you will 'act accordingly' if you see that i have 'disrupted' the forum, by questioning someone's view of reality?


What he means is that your tone and intent is clearly not one of discussion and learning - but one of confrontation.

before i lift a finger i wanna get this ...threat clear? and no, that threat is not 'cool'!


I enjoy the point of view that you bring - I really like alternative explanations for various phenomenon, and it's fantastic to see people step outside the box. The problem that always arises, it seems, is that one side or the other constantly accuses the other side of being close-minded and clueless.

I realize it's a cliche - but the golden rule applies to forum posting especially. Treat (and enter a dialog) with others exactly how you would like to be treated. Ray and I had a very, very heated debate not long ago on a religious topic. We walked away having learned a great deal from eachother and remain very good friends - despite not coming to a common agreement. Yes, when both sides hold certain beliefs very, very firmly - it can get emotional. But that doesn't mean you can't have a dialog if mutual respect is practiced.

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:52 pm

Thanks to AD and Chorlton for chiming in overnight. I just now dragged my butt outta bed to find these replies!

Chorlton wrote:They spent sometime using overlays on the lights with the hills in the background and it was quite easy to see they were indeed slowly descending flares..


This was the PRECISE observation and reasoning that myself and my aerospace colleague used as we watched this event first-hand. Over a period of a few minutes one could clearly see first-hand (which means using our own, space-stabilized eyes rather than viewing the event through a non-space-stabilized, jiggling camera) that the objects were slowly descending, and yes, in unison. That would mean if they are flares they are all relatively the same weight with the same drag coefficient.

Another point to make for being flares is that not all of these "lights" appeared simultaneously. If it were a ship the only explanation for this would be that the "resident aliens" were giving us a lightshow and turning on the lights one at a time, in sequence around the craft. But if an A-10 Warthog were flying over the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range, and dropping flares one at a time, this is exactly the pattern you would expect.

I am amazed at how people with no technical knowledge of such things can get on their high-horse and claim that people with experience in such things have no more authority than they do. I've spent 25 years doing aerodynamic and control analysis of flight vehicles. Does that count for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING next to a UFO "believer" who has no such training???

Amusing,
Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:32 pm

There were two sightings on March 13th 1997. A lot of people, skeptics and believers alike tend to mix up the two sightings and merge them into one.

The flare theory Ray has described above is the most obvious explanation for one of the sightings and has been accepted as valid by both believers and skeptics alike. The numerous photos and video footage that was taken that night are of these flares.

The other sighting that night was of a slow moving cluster of lights in a V formation that flew over the city itself. Eye-witness accounts of that sighting are varied and range from sounding like "rushing wind" to silent. Something clearly did fly over the city that night, but to suggest it was an alien craft when one considers the facts of the sighting borders on the preposterous, IMHO.

Cheers,
Zep
.
Image
User avatar
Zep Tepi
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:07 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:There were two sightings on March 13th 1997. A lot of people, skeptics and believers alike tend to mix up the two sightings and merge them into one.

The flare theory Ray has described above is the most obvious explanation for one of the sightings and has been accepted as valid by both believers and skeptics alike. The numerous photos and video footage that was taken that night are of these flares.

The other sighting that night was of a slow moving cluster of lights in a V formation that flew over the city itself. Eye-witness accounts of that sighting are varied and range from sounding like "rushing wind" to silent. Something clearly did fly over the city that night, but to suggest it was an alien craft when one considers the facts of the sighting borders on the preposterous, IMHO.

Cheers,
Zep


Cool. you have saved me the effort dude 8) but i dont accept your dismissive nature of the event. As though many people being nonplused by the experience is a nonevent.
I am sich n tired of this silly lame excuse that nuthins goin on BOY! which is complwete insult to YOUR intelligence, never mind mine

I am not a Phjoenix Lights groupie. I only mentioned it, but have been kinda dragged into some kind of sciency prove it or DIEEEE trip :shock:

I am more interested in The Disclosure Project and Dr Steven Greer so if I may steer you over to this, would be most velcum
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
zplix
Banned
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: manchester UK

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:19 pm

zplix wrote:I am more interested in The Disclosure Project and Dr Steven Greer so if I may steer you over to this, would be most velcum


Is this a way to dodge my question? (Not so pleasant when the shoe is on the other foot, eh?) I would like a clear, direct answer to my question before you try to change the subject:

Were you a direct eyewitness to the Phoenix Lights (as I was) in 1997, or not?

Thanks,
Ray
Last edited by You Can Call Me Ray on Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

The Disclosure Project and Dr Steven Greer

Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:19 pm

So people, what are your thought about this major event?

What have we here? Where many people 'in the know', seem to have been brought together by Dr Greer and give testimony that there do indeed exist Extraterrestrial craft, which in secret projects have been back-engineered. And not only that.
That as well as that, there has also been a secret revolution inspired by tesla, which altogther means extraordinary advanced technology is being suppressed from public knowledge which, if released would radically change the world. And it is precisely the threat to the previaling power's powerful monopoly that is the reason this is above top secret.

Now I don't know about you, but I am seeing this declaration somewhat eclipsing
the Phoenix Lights phenomena (not that it is insignificant) for the moment, in relation to its overall impact.

So, what say you here about The DP and Steve Greer?
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
zplix
Banned
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: manchester UK

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:22 pm

Changing the subject rather than answering the difficult questions that have painted him into a corner. I am sorry to say that we have seen this happen all too many times in the past, have we not gents?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
zplix wrote:I am more interested in The Disclosure Project and Dr Steven Greer so if I may steer you over to this, would be most velcum


Is this a way to dodge my question? (Not so pleasant when the shoe is on the other foot, eh?) I would like a clear, direct answer to my question before you try to change the subject:

Were you a direct eyewitness to the Phoenix Lights (as I was) in 1997, or not?

Thanks,
Ray


Oh Ray, of COURSE I am not trying to dodge it. I live many many miles away in the UK. How the hell could I have been there. That doesn't make YOU right though. Please read previous post. I pr9omise to get back to P.lights if you insist. Also look at the other poster's contributuion and my reply...?

But please dont ignore about DP and Greer

uzzzervize i might smell somsing fishy :x
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
zplix
Banned
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: manchester UK

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:33 pm

zplix wrote: I live many many miles away in the UK. How the hell could I have been there. That doesn't make YOU right though.


Using your OWN principles and philosophy of using your experience to determine reality, it certainly increases the probability that I am "more right" than you...right? If you would like, I could quote your own words that outline your philosophy. But now, somehow, you do not wish to apply that philosophy when confronted with an eyewitness (which you are not) who does not report findings in accordance with your beliefs. Interesting.

My response to Zep's post is simple (and I am pretty sure he would agree). I will style it in the form of a point you made to me about the Phoenix Lights being flares:

Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give video/photo evidence that the alternate reports of a ship flying over Phoenix are supported?

IOW, it may very well be that other people were reporting something different than the lights caught on video (which are more likely flares than anything else), but I have yet to see ONE IOTA of corroborating evidence to support those eyewitness claims. Show me some and I would happily consider it for analysis. And if all you can go on it eyewitness accounts, and nothing else, pray tell why you are so quick to poo-poo MY EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby murnut » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:56 pm

For some reason, Greer's latest email scares the hell out of me...make sure you click on the first link.
Greer apparently can solve ALL of the worlds problems.
Is Greer about to become a cult leader?
I hope not

----- Original Message -----
From: <updates@disclosureproject.org>
To: <updates@disclosureproject.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: [Disclosure Project Update] Transformation of Risk

Advanced Energy Research Organization, LLC (AERO) has identified several clean energy technologies which will transform the current world environmental and energy situation. This overview explains how the current risks of environmental global warming, air pollution and public health challenges, energy resource scarcity and competition, global terrorism and current electric grid obsolescence and vulnerability are transformed by these out-of-the-box technologies.
>
> Read more on the AERO web site: http://www.aero2012.com/en/risk.mhtml
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> This email is being sent to subscribers of the Disclosure Project Updates email list. To unsubscribe, please reply to this email and put Unsubscribe in the subject. Disclosure Project web site: http://www.DisclosureProject.org
>
"The Conformers are hard to read. They are rocks."
User avatar
murnut
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:35 am

Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:38 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
zplix wrote: I live many many miles away in the UK. How the hell could I have been there. That doesn't make YOU right though.


Using your OWN principles and philosophy of using your experience to determine reality, it certainly increases the probability that I am "more right" than you...right? If you would like, I could quote your own words that outline your philosophy. But now, somehow, you do not wish to apply that philosophy when confronted with an eyewitness (which you are not) who does not report findings in accordance with your beliefs. Interesting.

My response to Zep's post is simple (and I am pretty sure he would agree). I will style it in the form of a point you made to me about the Phoenix Lights being flares:

Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give video/photo evidence that the alternate reports of a ship flying over Phoenix are supported?

IOW, it may very well be that other people were reporting something different than the lights caught on video (which are more likely flares than anything else), but I have yet to see ONE IOTA of corroborating evidence to support those eyewitness claims. Show me some and I would happily consider it for analysis. And if all you can go on it eyewitness accounts, and nothing else, pray tell why you are so quick to poo-poo MY EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT?

Ray


OK I can see you is stuck on the P.Lights :roll:

So you think you know my 'philosophy'? 8)

You imagine that i mean one has to be physically in A space?
No, I dont necessarily mean that. I have seen footage. I have heard reports. I have seen people talk, and watched their faces, and tone of voice. you know, all the sensual stuff :o
And I believe you believe what you believe . If i may be so bold...that you assume it is /was 'ONLY flares'. Am I right? I do not agree with your conclusion.
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
zplix
Banned
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: manchester UK

Postby zplix » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:41 pm

murnut wrote:For some reason, Greer's latest email scares the hell out of me...make sure you click on the first link.
Greer apparently can solve ALL of the worlds problems.
Is Greer about to become a cult leader?
I hope not

----- Original Message -----
From: <updates@disclosureproject.org>
To: <updates@disclosureproject.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: [Disclosure Project Update] Transformation of Risk

Advanced Energy Research Organization, LLC (AERO) has identified several clean energy technologies which will transform the current world environmental and energy situation. This overview explains how the current risks of environmental global warming, air pollution and public health challenges, energy resource scarcity and competition, global terrorism and current electric grid obsolescence and vulnerability are transformed by these out-of-the-box technologies.
>
> Read more on the AERO web site: http://www.aero2012.com/en/risk.mhtml
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> This email is being sent to subscribers of the Disclosure Project Updates email list. To unsubscribe, please reply to this email and put Unsubscribe in the subject. Disclosure Project web site: http://www.DisclosureProject.org
>


May I inquire. Have you thouroughlly checked out what they are laying down. Or have you just glanced at it? I personally haven't looked at it close yet
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act~~George Orwell
zplix
Banned
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: manchester UK

Postby murnut » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:15 pm

May I inquire. Have you thouroughlly checked out what they are laying down. Or have you just glanced at it? I personally haven't looked at it close yet


No I havent checked it out, just a bad feeling on my part....no proof.

I dont think Greer has anything, other than a belief the US military Black Project programs can solve all the worlds problems. What is he doing, trying to force their hand?

It is certainly is a noble cause, but...I dont know, something about him doesnt feel right to me anymore.

At one point, I thought he was the best chance for disclosure.
I changed my mind.

The Phoneix lights is a strange case. I saw the same presentation which concluded that these were flares.
However, I do believe that there might have been two events that evening.
The actual v-shaped craft, and the flares some time later.
Were the flares part of plausible deniability? I dont know. The eye witness reports that I saw, dont seem to match up with the video of the flares I saw.

Perhaps the "Lights" example is not the best to prove the case.

In fact there are very few that "proves" the case.

One could argue zero.

From my point of view, there is some phenomena occuring.

I am looking for answers that says something to me, I have no desire to prove you right or wrong.

I feel that the adversarial nature of how we communicate our feelings on these subjects is a detriment to the cause. Cause is a poor choice of words, but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

Too bad it is in our nature that these posts end up being adversarial
"The Conformers are hard to read. They are rocks."
User avatar
murnut
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:35 am

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:40 pm

Interesting. You certainly do like to "hammer" people when they don't address what you want addressed. And you certainly like to demand evidence of others to prove their point. Yet now, more than once, you have let some of my points slide, obviously hoping that I would also let them go by the wayside. No such luck, pal :wink:

I wondered if you were going to rise to this challenge I laid before you, or if you were just going to let it slide?



You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Ok Ok, point me to several articles well referenced that give video/photo evidence that the alternate reports of a ship flying over Phoenix are supported?


I'm waiting. You were provided with the evidence you wanted when you posed a question like this. Do I not deserve the same?

OK I can see you is stuck on the P.Lights :roll:


May I remind you that it was you, not I, who first broached this topic? The fact that you are now painted into a corner and so wish to leave your own topic behind is not a reflection of me being "stuck on it" sir. Rather, it is a reflection on your unwillingness to examine it thoroughly, and from all sides with all those who were there to witness it! :roll:

So you think you know my 'philosophy'? 8)


Strawman. Did I ever claim to know your philosophy? Rather, I claimed (and can quote precisely) what your words are wherein you first attempted to describe why experience is all you need. Would you like me to quote those words of yours?

You imagine that i mean one has to be physically in A space?
No, I dont necessarily mean that.


So let me get this straight, for I do not wish to create strawmen as you do. Answer this question please: Are you telling me that you think a person who was NOT AN EYEWITNESS to an event could possibly come to a MORE TRUTHFUL conclusion about that event than a person who was an eyewitness? Is this what you are saying with the above? :!:

I have seen footage. I have heard reports. I have seen people talk, and watched their faces, and tone of voice. you know, all the sensual stuff :o


I have seen such things too. Sometimes they are called "movies" and sometimes they are not always factual...But darned if they don't do a good job of convincing you that something was real. Apparantly, you are insinuating from your statement above that you could not possibly be fooled by footage, reports, and people talking about their experiences. If that is what you are honestly claiming, then I believe my debate with you is over... and while your conclusion might be that you won, I think others might believe differently.

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

PreviousNext

Google

Return to UFOs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests