Tim Good, on the gravy train or a serious researcher?

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Tim Good, on the gravy train or a serious researcher?

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:58 am

Seeing Tim Good's name brought up on another forum I wondered if people here had any opinion on the 'UFO Authority' person known as Tim Good.?
I put him in the same class as John Lear, though hes a bit more successfull of separating people from their money than Lear is.
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:03 am

He is an entertainer, nothing more in my opinion. All of them are.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:21 pm

Timothy Good is a trained musician - and self-taught UFO researcher. He isn't a scientist and therefore, as is the problem with a large portion of the UFO "Researcher" community, doesn't fully understand how to properly verify claims before claiming them to be true, or even possibly true. In this field, claiming something is even "possibly" true leads to overwhelming speculation and myth-creation (and feeds the monster of misinformation). Of course some writers, who deserve the title "UFO Tabloid Writer", do not care if their claims are true or accurate - but only if they are outlandish enough to attract attention and customers.

Dr. Victorian's efforts below strike a chord here...because many of our pursuits in verifying information we've heard and read related to MJ12 claims, and related Project Serpo material, have proven similar when the information claimed is actually verified.

If Victorian's experience is any indication - Timothy Good is not a very good, nor a very accurate source for information.


http://www.anomalies.net/archive/Text-Archive/txt1/523.ufo

Written by Jim Klotz of CUFON SYSOP


Late in September 1991, An envelope from England arrived in the Post Office
Box of the UFO Reporting and Information Service. It contained a review of
Chapter 10 "Cosmic Journey" from the recent book "Alien Liaison" by Timothy
Good. The review raises serious questions about the quality of research done
for said chapter of "Alien Liaison," and indeed about the integrity of Mr.
Timothy Good.

"Alien Liaison" was published in England By Century Publishing; and to the
best of my knowledge, it is available in the United States only from Arcturus
Book Service of Port St. Lucie Florida.

The person who sent the paper is one "Dr. Armen Victorian." The name is a
pseudonym of an energetic British researcher. He purports to be interested
only in verified information, something well appreciated here. Some of Dr.
Victorian's work can be read in the recent "UFO Crash/Retrievals: The Inner
Sanctum Status Report VI", by Leonard H. Stringfield, privately published,
July, 1991.

{snip}




A. Victorian writes to Jim:

Dear Sir/Madam,


Please find enclosed herewith a copy of the review on Mr. Timothy
Good's recent book, Alien Liaison.

It would be prudent to study the review prior to passing any
judgement based on the your knowledge about Mr. Good.


Sincerely,

/s/ A. Victorian

A. Victorian

Encl: As attached



I will quote relevant passages here...please use the link above to see the full write-up (all emphasis is mine).


A REVIEW OF "ALIEN LIAISON : TIMOTHY GOOD
-----------------------------------------
By: Armen Victorian
August 1991


The publication of Alien Liaison in my opinion has put yet another nail on
the coffin of the UFOlogy which is already suffering from a mountain of
distortion and mis-information from tabloid ufologists. "Governments do not
have to do any more damage that what already what many ufologists in search
of a few quick bucks or fame are doing themselves to the field. Why are you
pointing your fingers continuously at us", ran the comments of one Major
General to me, adding "No longer is it clear who is telling the truth when
you guys are quoting us in your 'literature'",
holding up the fingers of
both hands as the sign of parentheses.

Mr. Good's latest book by Century, was published in May, 1991. Soon
afterwards, Mr. Good received wide media coverage largely due to ONE chapter
in his book which added "punch" to make it a best seller. In England, he
attended live radio shows and TV programs, which, via satellite link, also
helped to bring his close associate, Mr. Bob Oechsler into the limelight.
Bob Oechsler provided the main substance for "Cosmic Journey", chapter 10.

ADM Lord Peter Hill-Norton, another close ally of Mr. Good, was quick on the
mark by writing the "commentary" for the book without any proper
consideration as to what he is writing might bear a sour fruit. Maybe he
thought the title he held almost twenty-two years ago (Admiral of the Fleet -
Chief of Defence Staff 1971 - 73) was the endorsement seal of accuracy for
the accounts in the book, therefore adding to its controversy as yet another
sale-point.


{snip}

Amongst several pages of Mr. Birdsall's gobbly-gook, there is one particular
passage which caught my eye (P. 25, Quest, Vol. 10, No. 4). There Mr.
birdsall wrights "Objective researchers cannot dismiss the revelations made
by some of the most senior figures in United States Intelligence, and one can
do nothing but HEAP PRAISE on Timothy Good and his publishers Century, for
having the courage to withstand pressure from that same American Intelligence
Community that threatened all sorts of legal action if they went ahead and
'named names'. "That" they said, "would breach US national security". On 30
July 1991, I put this point to Mr. Mark Booth of Century Publication, who
actually has edited Mr. Good's book "Alien Liaison". He replied that, there
NEVER was any threat of any sort from any quarters, quite the reverse is
accurate, we were worried that maybe the book would not sell after
publication. (Recorded telephone conversation - Author).


I was given a copy of the book and was asked to check the veracity and
accuracy of one particular chapter, "Cosmic Journey", Chapter 10. During the
months in which I contacted every single personality that has been named, or
those whose names do not appear for the reason of adding a deliberate twist,
creating a sale point for the book.


My first contact was with Mr. Bob Oechsler, who apparently was the bonafide,
main witness for this chapter. In the very first conversation I had with Mr.
Oechsler (Taped telephone conversation), I asked him whether he is totally
happy and satisfied the was Mr. good has put this chapter together. Mr.
Oechsler answered, that he was not. He added that "Cosmic Journey Project",
was mainly a commercial enterprise, and that Mr. Good has turned it into
something somewhat different. He said he would have preferred to have it
worded differently, and not to give the impression to the readership that it
is a project, where the government is standing behind Ringling Brothers as a
front.
In the latest conversation had with Mr. Oechsler on 10 August 1991,
when it was clear by then that many areas in that chapter raise very serious
questions, he said that I should know by now that Mr. Good is nor a
researcher, but an editor who collects material and puts them together.

Similar comments also were made Mr. Jaime Shandrae to Mr. Grant Cameron, the
Canadian UFO researcher, about Mr. Good.

CHAPTER 10 - COSMIC JOURNEY
---------------------------

Mr. Good begins this chapter by introducing ADM Bobby Ray Inman. from there
he embarks upon referring to Mr. Oechsler's brief encounter with ADM Inman,
(May 13, 1988, on the grounds of the Science and Technology Center of
University of Maryland). At that brief encounter apparently Mr. Oechsler,
after introducing himself, left his business card with ADM Inman, asking "I
would be grateful if at some point you might have someone contact me about
how I can get closer to MJ12". (See UFO Magazine "UFO Secret Team? "Control
Factor' Stymies Ufology" by Vicki Cooper), and then writes extracts of Mr.
Oechsler's telephone conversation with ADM Inman (The telephone conversation
had taken place at 8AM, July 20, 1989. At that time Mr. good was staying
with Mr. Oechsler - complete text of this telephone conversation which
included Mr. Oechsler's speculation, was faxed to me by Mr. Oechsler). The
published lines in the book, are somewhat taken out of context. According to
Oechsler and Good, they represent the fact that ADM Inman is heavily involved
with the UFO subject and its cover up. One particular question by Oechsler,
and ADM Inman's answer (published in italic, page 191), has allowed the
imagination of both Good and Oechsler fly wild and loose.

Bob Oechsler: "Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would
ever become available for technological research?"

ADM Inman: "Again, I honestly don't know, ten years ago the answer would have
been no. Whether as time has evolved they are beginning to become more open
on it, there's a possibility. Again Mr. Hineman (retired Deputy Director of
Science and Technology Division, CIA) probably would be the best person to
put that kind of question to...".

There is not once a single specific reference to the subject of UFOs in the
entire text of the telephone conversation. Mr. Good by deliberately not
publishing ADM Inman's letter of Dec. 18, 1989, that I re-produce here, has
twisted the facts, representing totally a fabricated version of the truth.

Quote: "Dear Mr. Good,

Just a short note to thank you for your letters of 17 November and 7 december
1989, and the copy of Admiral Lord Hill-Norton's letter to you. I did
receive your book and appreciate your thoughtfulness for sending it. I look
forward to reading it in the weeks ahead. Unfortunately, I do not know any
information which could be of assistance to you for your UFO report.
I would
like to take this opportunity to wish you success in your findings.

Please pass my very best wishes to Admiral Lord Hill-Norton when you have the
opportunity.

Sincerely,
[Signed] B. R. Inman".

After receiving the complete text of the telephone conversation, I asked Mr.
Oechsler if anyone else but Mr. Good has listened to this telephone
conversation that you have recorded? He gave me the name of a Mr. John
Dingley. On 14 July 1991, I telephoned Mr. Dingley and asked him whether he
had listened to the taped telephone conversation between ADM Inman and Mr.
Oechsler. He confirmed that he had listened to the taped conversation. I
asked him was the subject of UFOs ever mentioned in the entire conversation?
He answered "NO".

By then I had already contacted ADM Inman, enclosing page s of the book where
he had been implicated, asking him for clarifications. On 26 July 1991, I
received the following letter from ADM Inman. (Copy enclosed)

"I received your letter of July 1st concerning Timothy Good's book Alien
Liaison. I believe all these allegations to be false. Concerning your
comments on a group of scientists called MJ12, I have no such awareness and
do not believe such a group exists.


[Author's comments: I deliberately included the MJ12 issue in my
correspondence to him, because Oechsler claims that, it was the main lead
in.]

In summary, the book is filled with fabrication and distortions. My
conclusion from the pages I have seen is that the book is without any merit.

Signed: B. R. Inman."


{snip}

In another letter to ADM Inman,
which was faxed to his office, 2 Aug. 1991, asking him:

"As an objective researcher in trying to establish the intentions of each
parties involved in the course of these events, which gave "enough
confidence" to the author of the above mentioned book (T. Good), and his
assistant Mr. Bob Oechsler, in compelling, studying and editing the data,
which he thought to be accurate, there remains a few areas which would
require an ultimate clarification by you.

What did you think Bob Oechsler was inquiring about? It is still obscure
what your understanding was about the topic of the conversation? Perhaps I
should add that Bob Oechsler maintains that in his initial approach to you,
when he gave you his card, he mentioned to you clearly and briefly that he
required your assistance in contacting a member/members of the MJ12. He
maintains that you accepted his card, and in a cordial manner "Okayed" it".

I enclosed a copy of my letter to ADM Inman with the following covering
letter, dated 5 August, 1991 and sent them to ADM Lord Hill-Norton.

"dear sir,

Enclosed are the two letters I discussed about.

There are certainly areas of serious flaws in the manner by which the "data"
has been presented by the representers on the main characters in chapter 10
of the book, "Alien Liaison". It is no secret, which concerns myself and the
dignified high ranking officers, whose names have been mentioned, but the
truthfulness and exact, factual representation seems to bear some serious
questions.

Although, by writing my last letter to ADM Inman, I have tried to ask him to
clarify the grey areas, the seriousness of the issue referred to in my
previous paragraph over-rules such a request.

Signed-Author."

On 6 August 1991, I received a reply from ADM Inman, dated 5 Aug. 1991, which
I reproduce in its entirety here-below.

"Dear Dr. Victorian,

In response to the request in your letter dated 2 August 1991 for an
"ultimate clarification" by me re Mr. Oechsler, I provide the following:

a. I receive hundreds of calling cards each year from individuals who
approach me at public appearances. I have no specific recollection of the
receipt of a calling card from Mr. Oechsler prior to our telephone
conversation.

b. I have never heard of any organization called MJ12 nor did I have any
understanding from Mr. Oechsler about his seeking information an a specific
organization. His use of Admiral Lord Hill-Norton's name was the principal
factor in my having a conversation at all with Mr. Oechsler.

c. Having no prior knowledge of Mr. Oechsler's interest, I did not
understand until well into his dialogue that his research was about
Unidentified Flying Objects.

d. Throughout 22 years of service in intelligence community, I have never
encountered any credible evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial or
interplanetary entities, individuals, crafts, vehicles, or persons. I do not
believe any credible evidence of such activity exists.


I have been advised by RADM Shapiro that Mr. Oechsler totally misrepresented
both the nature and content of their conversation.

I remain persuaded that complete misrepresentation of my views and those of
RADM Shapiro has occurred and thus I distrust any and all stories and
conclusions that have been conveyed.

I hope you will entertain no further doubts about my views.


Sincerely,
[signed] B. R. Inman

{snip}

I asked Mr. Kirchgessner how Mr. Timothy Good became involved? He replied
that they decided not to have anything to do with Mr. Good due to the high
fees he had asked for. Mr. Kirchgessner's answer to this question is quite
contradictory to what Tim Good has written in his book. On page 151, Mr.
good writes "Following further discussions, I was invited to become the
'Official Consultant on UFO research' to the Special Development group. A
personal meeting in Orlando, Florida, was pre-requisite, the director said,
and since I would be visiting Gulf Breeze during October, I made arrangements
to fly to Orlando. Unfortunately, DIFFICULTIES with airline scheduling
arose, allowing inadequate time for the trip, and I was obliged to postpone
the meeting".

I put to Mr. Kirchgessner what Mr. good had published, he said it is simply
not true, we dropped him because of the sums he was asking as his fees. Then
Mr. Robert Oechsler appeared on the horizon.


Mr. Kirchgessner told me that Mr. Oechsler had asked for either $1200 or
$2000 per day for his work (He couldn't remember the exact figure off hand).

He had added that they asked Capt. Gene Cernan, ex-NASA astronaut, who is a
director on the board, to check Mr. Oechsler's credentials regarding his NASA
background. gene Cernan reported that Mr. Oechsler has NEVER held the
position he claims in NASA, but it is possible that he has worked as a junior
technician either with NASA or with a NASA sub-contractor, in which case his
name would not have been known anyway.
I contacted Gene Cernan on 8 Aug.
1991, after reaffirming what Mr. Kirchgessner has said, he further added that
the Cosmic Journey project never went any further than the drawing board.
(Taped telephone conversation).

A day before, 7 Aug. 1991, I contacted Miss Sussan Brewer, who works with Mr.
Kirchgessner and was a witness in the Orlando meeting, between Mr. Bob
Oechsler and them. i asked her by reading out the passage of the book on
page 197 (Alien Liaison) where Mr. good states that the project (Cosmic
Journey) had the approval of the President Bush and Vice President Quayle.
She answered; "It is a good question. as far as Bob (Kirchgessner) is
concerned, when he worked with Gene Crenan, Gene Cernan presented the project
to Vice President Quayle representing President Bush, then yes, I would
assume it would go to the top. (Note: The way Mr. Good has referred to this
point in his book, adds more vigor to his version of the story as to Cosmic
Journey was initially a government based project).

She further added "Let me tell you that when Mr. Oechsler came here to
Orlando, I was present. We were very kind and polite, but we realized that
he was a little off the wall". I also put to her what Mr. Kirchgessner had
told me about Mr. Oechsler's promise in providing them with a genuine UFO.
She immediately followed up by saying "A genuine UFO plus a spaceship". I
asked her whether it was in writing or verbal. She replied "Verbal, but
there were four other people at the table, you know they fell off their
chairs". I asked if she could give me their names as a matter of record.
She answered "I was one of them, the other young man was Brownell Schlubach,
he used to work with us at SDG, then Bob Kirchgessner, and the other
gentleman's name was Don Branch, he was the Manager of Design for SDG". She
further added that "after we realized what sort of person we were dealing
with, we did not have anything to do with a person with such a fanatical
representation."

Following my inquiries into other areas of chapter 10, Cosmic Journey, I was
quite intrigued by what Mr. good had written about "THE PENTAGON MEETING"
(See p.198/9/200/1, Alien Liaison). I was determined to locate the GENERAL
who had apparently scared the life out of Mr. Oechsler. Mr. Oechsler had
stated in the course of one of his telephone conversations with me that,
whilst in Florida the Ringling Bros. team had said to him that a variety of
people were involved, and their names were mentioned to him. A week after
returning from Florida he received a call from the "general". He added that
he would not like to "F--- around" with that general, after his alleged
encounter experience of November 17, 1989, (Taped telephone conversation with
Mr. Oechsler 7 Aug. 1991) "While resting in a Dallas cocktail lounge", that
he still thinks was the general's doing. Mr. Good illustrates Mr. Oechsler's
impressions and thoughts relating to this "Alien Intrusion" as "The sensation
in the back of Bob's head reminded him of the security machine at the
Pentagon, which had induced a 'tingling' sensation at the back of his head.
was there some connection perhaps?" (See p. 202 in the book).

With the help of the members of our research group, I managed to discover the
identity of the General concerned. Mr. Oechsler too independently, in the
course of our telephone conversation on Aug. 9, 1991, by revealing his name
to me further confirmed our finding (Taped telephone conversation). Mr.
Oechsler emphasized that he did not want his name to be mentioned in the
course of my inquiry with the General.

On August 8, 1991, I contacted Lt. General Thomas P. Stafford, the
distinguished ex-NASA astronaut in his Oklahoma office. he was the alleged
"GENERAL" in Mr. Good's book.

I mentioned to Tom Stafford that I have received a copy of the Cosmic Journey
project (Mr. Good's book), and I understand that he had met Mr. Oechsler on
November 13, 1989, in order to discuss about the project with him. He
answered that he does not remember meeting Mr. Oechsler. I pointed out that
in that particular meeting, one of the topics was about the type of alien/ET
to be put on the show in a cryogenic tank (See p. 199, Alien Liaison). I
asked him whether he recalls that. He said that he does not remember. Tom
Stafford asked me about the date of he meeting. After i gave him the date he
said no, he cannot remember such a meeting. Then he asked where was the
meeting supposed to have taken place. Again, I told him "in the Pentagon".
Then I proceeded by trying to refresh his memory, and referred to the
security device that Mr. Oechsler had apparently passed through and had
discussed with the General )See p. 199). he replied "b.s., tingling?" I
answered yes, and read the quotation made on page 198 of the book. he asked
by whom. I replied by Mr. Oechsler. Tom Stafford in reply to my question
that I had repeated again, referring to exhibiting a alien corpse in a
cryogenic tank, re[plied "I don't remember Mr. Oechsler" and he "doesn't know
anything about it". He later added again that he has just finished an eleven
months study for the White House and NASA about how to get back to the Moon
and Mars, which he had referred to very briefly at the beginning. And added
that he doesn't know anything about what I was talking about. I told him
about the publication of Mr. Tim Good, and added that although he has not
been mentioned by name, however the General in the passage is him. I said
that Mr. Oechsler himself has confirmed this to me.

He said that he invented the stealth bomber and "Sure started the F-117A
fighter, but that was years ago". Although he goes to the Pentagon
occasionally to meet friends, he does not have office there. I put to him
that his alleged office according to Mr. Oechsler was in the basement section
of the Pentagon, where Mr. Oechsler allegedly met with him. I asked him "Am
I correct, or do I have the wrong information?" He answered "You've got the
wrong information. I was down at SDI in Star Wars. I was down there
occasionally, but I have no office there". In reply to my question about his
knowledge about the alien entities, he answered, that he has never seen them,
although he has been to space four times. When I questioned him whether he
has any evidence about flying saucers, he said "Hell NO". (Taped telephone
conversation with Thomas P. Stafford).


{snip}

Based on my inquiries so far, there is no credible evidence of what Mr. Good
has written in his chapter 10 that is proven. I should also remind readers
that the people that I have talked to were unaware about the publication of
Timothy. Good's book.
And although Mr. Good has thanked a great many people
in his book and has sent copies of his book to the majority of them, he has
failed to do the same for the people I have talked to. Equally important,
every serious piece of research is only credible when it has been sighted and
verified by those people whose roles and names constitute the back-bone of
the researcher's findings.
In fulfilling his obligations in this regard, Mr.
good has been discriminately selective. Whilst a chosen few have been
addressed for their approval of his writing about them, such as Mr. Oechsler,
a great many, deliberately and intentionally have been ignored. Ironically,
even among those recipients, from whom Mr. good had asked their approval for
his writing about them, some chose to ignore Col. William Coleman, fro
example, is one such person, who as a mark of protest decided neither reply
nor approve the material. His protest went unheeded. Mr. Good as
previously, decided to go ahead and include a part about Col. Coleman. Col.
Coleman is still critical of what Mr. Tom Good published in his previous
book, Above Top Secret, about him. Mr. good had promised to put the record
straight in the re-print, apparently he hasn't.

I think, the ufologists should know that "out there" there are some
unscrupulous tabloid writers, for whom morality is weighed up by the sum of
money they obtain from their outputs. In their books, everyone seems to be
expendable.END.





-Ry
---
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Postby Chorlton » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:49 pm

Thanks for that RY
Seems like my estimation of him was right. Ive seen him several times in and around various studios but for some reason just cant bring myself to talk to him. I have that feeling that if I start talking ti him I will collapse into laughter so tended not to speak to him.
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:54 pm

Damn Ry. Where do you find the time? The rest of us are relegated to a couple of lines here and there, yet you somehow manage to find the time to not only do quick search, but then to format it and post it.

Get a job. ;)
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:41 pm

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:Damn Ry. Where do you find the time? The rest of us are relegated to a couple of lines here and there, yet you somehow manage to find the time to not only do quick search, but then to format it and post it.

Get a job. ;)


LOL...thanks ITF... Weekends, morning coffee, and lunchtime are all "study-time"... lol

It helps having a lot of material archived already - many of these personalities who have been around for years surface in just about every UFO "story" in some form or another. So a lot of stuff is already formatted from previous research and good to "go" upon request!

I was also deemed a "freak" in high school typing class. lol....

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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:40 pm

Also, The following quote can't be re-stated often enough. Bobby Ray Inman's name had been tossed around at certain points during some of the Serpo discussions - and it's important for people to know where he stands on issues such as this. I think he stated it fairly clearly in his signed letter to Dr. Victorian:

Throughout 22 years of service in intelligence community, I have never
encountered any credible evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial or
interplanetary entities, individuals, crafts, vehicles, or persons. I do not
believe any credible evidence of such activity exists.


-Ry
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Postby murnut » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:05 am

ryguy wrote:Also, The following quote can't be re-stated often enough. Bobby Ray Inman's name had been tossed around at certain points during some of the Serpo discussions - and it's important for people to know where he stands on issues such as this. I think he stated it fairly clearly in his signed letter to Dr. Victorian:

Throughout 22 years of service in intelligence community, I have never
encountered any credible evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial or
interplanetary entities, individuals, crafts, vehicles, or persons. I do not
believe any credible evidence of such activity exists.


-Ry



Would you expect him to confirm it?
"The Conformers are hard to read. They are rocks."
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:28 am

murnut wrote:Would you expect him to confirm it?


Whatever he would say to Timothy Good, or any other researcher - he would be willing to repeat to Dr. Victorian.

The claim in Good's book was untrue. As were many other claimed "facts".

Get it?

-Ry
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:30 am

murnut wrote:Would you expect him to confirm it?

If there was any credible evidence, absolutely! Why not?

You see the excuse UFOlogists have come up with to sell you their stories and explain why there's no credible evidence to back them up is that it must be a SECRET! Yeah that’s it…

[oh yes and the so-called “whistle blowers” don’t go to jail because people might think they were actually on to something lol]

Have you ever heard of the General Twining memo?

[not to be confused with the forged MJ-12 Cutler/Twining memo]

The General Twining Memo
http://www.roswellfiles.com/Articles/twining.htm

This letter was sent out to Air Material Commands (AMC) in response to General Schulgen's Collection Memorandum. Gen. Twining requested that investigations be conducted that might shed some light on the recent rash of Flying Saucer sightings.

The Walker Memo was sent out as a result of this letter.

Some proponents view this letter as proof that the Air Force knows that extraterrestrial UFOs exist.

The closest the the letter comes to considering alien origin is the opinion that [there is] "The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge."

However, the proponents tend to ignore, or dismiss as an "obvious lie" dictated by the Super Secret Roswell Conspiracy, the instruction that his commanders should consider:

"The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects."

Many books and web sites leave that last part out… gee I wonder why?

This SECRET letter was dated Sept. 23, 1947… over 2 months after the Roswell incident! Think about this for a minute…

1. Why would General Twining be requesting an investigation into “Flying Saucers” if they had already “captured” one in Roswell? Wouldn’t they already know what they were?

2. If they had already “captured” a “flying saucer” in Roswell 2 months earlier why would General Twining suggest that recovering one would prove their existence?

3. Why would the Commanding General of the Air Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson (where “Hanger 18” was and the “crash debris” was supposedly sent to) send a letter to the Commanding General of the entire Army Air Force telling him they were essentially clueless?

Don't you think these folks just might have a NEED TO KNOW??!!!

Keep in mind this letter was SECRET and was never intended to be seen by the public. In 1947 they could not have predicted the enactment of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) some 20 years later in 1966 and that someday you and I would be able to see it.

For more UFOlogical fakery/deliberate deception by Stan Friedman, Tim Good, et. al. see…

THE REAL SCHULGEN MEMO
http://www.roswellfiles.com/Articles/Schulgen.htm

And Tim Printy’s excellent synopsis FMI…

What Did the Air Force Really Know?
http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/end.html

Don’t take my word for it but since you say you “believe nothing, consider everything” I would suggest you might want to take a closer look at the material at the above links I gave and consider the possibility you’ve been had... big time!
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Postby murnut » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:26 pm

ryguy wrote:
murnut wrote:Would you expect him to confirm it?


Whatever he would say to Timothy Good, or any other researcher - he would be willing to repeat to Dr. Victorian.

The claim in Good's book was untrue. As were many other claimed "facts".

Get it?

-Ry



Sorry, I meant confirm UFO's exist.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:37 pm

murnut wrote:Sorry, I meant confirm UFO's exist.


Understood. Although that implies that you believe one man could hold the answer, or have enough information/data, to be able to answer such a question.

Just to put it in perspective... Take a field of paranormal research that the government has admitted an interest - Remote Viewing.

There are a great number of folks who were involved, in some respect or another, in that research and/or its funding and support - Hal Puthoff, Ken Kress, Kit Green, all of the INSCOM/DIA trained remove viewers, Jack Verona, Dale Graff, Ron Pandolfi, Russ Targ, Uri Geller, Paul Smith, Ingo Swann...and on, and on, and on.

You put all those folks together in a room - and ask them whether the Government's interest and research in the field over 30+ years has solved the mystery regarding the ability to remote view and what the answer is. Many of the folks would not even agree that there IS any such ability. Others would say there is, but that it's not repeatable...maybe about a 50-60% success rate. Others would say the success rate was more like 10-20%. Some, who accept the reality of the ability, would speculate as to what the source of the ability is.....a connection to a unified cosmic force....an ability from an extraterrestrial intelligent force....or simply something that is an early evolutionary sense that is in it's infancy. The theories go on and on.

We interviewed several of the folks who worked in/on that research and their answers were all largely different. 30+ years of research - and if the research remained classified today, then "disclosure" leaked from any of these folks would look different - depending on who was doing the leaking...because no one truly has any ultimate solid answer - only very firmly-held beliefs.

The same, unfortunately, appears to hold true for the UFO phenomenon. Yes, Unidentified Flying Objects exist. Whether they are Extra-terrestrial in nature, or spiritual visions, or delusions, or experimental aircraft, etc, etc ad naseum - will differ greatly depending on which insider you talk to.

The one thing that I feel bad about when I come across folks who sometimes lean on their beliefs so strongly, without demanding evidence - is that when/if disclosure of government interest in the UFO phenomenon is revealed in its entirety, while many of us will find the Intel/Government scientific interest and exploration of this particular phenomenon as very fascinating....believers who are hoping for a big revelation of an alien ship crashed at Roswell with Alien Bodies and captured technology, complete with an "MJ12" shadowy committee managing it all, are going to be terribly disappointed.

The dream that one or two insiders have the ultimate answer to this phenomenon is a naive pipe-dream....one that various scam-artists take advantage of, unfortunately.

-Ry
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"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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Postby murnut » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:43 pm

The one thing that I feel bad about when I come across folks who sometimes lean on their beliefs so strongly, without demanding evidence - is that when/if disclosure of government interest in the UFO phenomenon is revealed in its entirety, while many of us will find the Intel/Government scientific interest and exploration of this particular phenomenon as very fascinating....believers who are hoping for a big revelation of an alien ship crashed at Roswell with Alien Bodies and captured technology, complete with an "MJ12" shadowy committee managing it all, are going to be terribly disappointed.

The dream that one or two insiders have the ultimate answer to this phenomenon is a naive pipe-dream....one that various scam-artists take advantage of, unfortunately.


It is one thing to demand evidence, and another thing to actually get it.

I could stick my head in the sand, and pretend that there is nothing going on as well.

I have no answers, only questions.

My only hope is making sense, out of something that makes no sense.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:16 pm

murnut wrote:It is one thing to demand evidence, and another thing to actually get it.


No...the only way to get evidence isn't to demand it but to find it yourself. The people worth talking to aren't typically the ones who come forward on their own, or are quoted in books like Timothy Good's, or interviewed at places like Project Camelot.

I could stick my head in the sand, and pretend that there is nothing going on as well.


No one is pretending nothing is going on - just cautioning against opening up your filter so much that mud and crud gets in along with the "good" stuff.

I have no answers, only questions.

My only hope is making sense, out of something that makes no sense.


It makes more sense when you filter out enough of the mud. An open mind is a fantastic thing, don't get me wrong - I wouldn't be here at all if I didn't believe there could be life on other planets, or that there could be an intelligent "creator", etc... but a mind that is too open, in the eloquent words of one source - "...becomes nothing more than a wind-tunnel."

-Ry
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:53 pm

Maybe we'll start a list of "credible" Ufologists ...a list people can take to find which books and material they should read for a somewhat more scientific approach to the field (some more than others) - with legitimate research and material, properly cited and quoted.

I encourage anyone to suggest additions or subtractions from this list.

***

Nick Pope
George Knapp
Dr. James E. McDonald
Nicholas "Nick" Redfern
Dr. Jacques Vallée
Kenny Young
Dick Farley (in particular "Matrix of UFO Beliefs")
Dr. Josef Allen Hynek
Philip J. Klass


"The UFO research and investigation business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps of corrupt ideology run free, agenda dictates, delusion is rampant and ignorance prevails. The infestation of wrongful motivation and the beggarly depths of belief reign supreme amidst a universal disregard for truth and factual actuality... where good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side..."

—Kenny Young
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