Are sleep disorders and UFO experiences related?

General UFO stories

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Postby Access Denied » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:37 am

lost-shaman wrote:That is a nice correlation, although I'd expect some percentage of the control group to have also observed 'UFOs'. Does this get any discussion in the Study?

Interesting observation however I think maybe the point is moot… there may very well be some percentage of the control group who have seen “UFOs”, conceivably even higher than the national (?) average of 10% you suggested (source?), however I propose there’s a third category of “UFO experiencers”… those who have seen “UFOs” and aren’t really all that concerned about it and therefore most likely wouldn’t respond to an ad for looking for “UFO experiencers”. :)

If so, this raises the question of what is the psychology behind “UFO experiencers”… in particular where does the desire (?) to “come forward” and “share” their experiences with others come from? Is it validation they seek? If so, why? Could it be because in reality (aka Psych 101 to some lol) they’re:

1. Subconsciously unsure of what they saw?
2. Seeking attention?
3. Genuinely “freaked out”?

All of the above?

lost-shaman wrote:Also does age bias the results if we are dealing with a very rarely observed phenomena considering the largest control group was made up of Students?

Well, if I’m reading the graph on p.11 of this 1975 paper by Vallee correctly for example…

Basic Patterns in UFO Observations
http://www.jacquesvallee.net/bookdocs/AIAA.pdf

…the (significant) majority (21%) are in the age 10-15 group, 36% are in the age 10-20 group combined, and a full 52% are in the age 0-25 group total so I would have to say there doesn’t appear to be any bias in the selection of the control group. :)

[I have “issues” with Vallee’s perspective but I figured it would be less controversial to cite his data as opposed to someone like Klass lol]

Interestingly, this peak at an early age corresponds with the graph of “Age of First Sleep Paralysis Episode” cited in Caryn’s article…

http://www.starstreamresearch.com/sleep ... 0study.JPG

Conversely however, the smaller secondary peak (11%) in the age 40-45 group in Vallee’s chart of UFO witnesses does NOT correlate with those of the “extreme” group.

I’ve heard lots of folk experience a resurgence of their UFO interest around that same age (~30 years later). Not sure if that’s of any significance but I do find it interesting…

Caryn wrote:You have a prime subject here you know, to test your theories on. Having been exposed to both UAP and ‘contact’ (not abduction) - I fall into both test sets.

Because I believe this issue to be of considerable significance, I’m willing to engage you in a frank discussion if you like?

Cool, I applaud your willingness to be “scrutinized” as it were. That said, I took some time to review your article and I have a few questions if you don’t mind…

Caryn wrote:I got up and went down stairs, still pretty shaken by the event, to some friends who were still awake. As I entered one of them asked if I was OK, ‘you look dreadful’ he said, another friend mentioned that the T.V was working now. Whilst this had been occurring upstairs, the T.V had evidently lost all reception. It may be of interest to note that the T.V aerial was situated immediately outside of the bedroom window.

Was it unusual for the TV not to be getting good reception? Could this not have been a coincidence?

Caryn wrote:I stumbled in through the living room doorway to where my fiancé 'G' was sitting on the sofa watching TV. He was shocked when he saw me. There was some sort of commotion around me and I remembered 'G' telling me I seemed to be in the middle of a whirlwind.

This comment was recently kindly forwarded by ‘G’:

“I'd say that what surrounded you on the night was like intelligent smoke. It did swirl around you like a whirlwind and you had a strange look on your face (have you ever seen the X-Files where 'ghosts' are appearing to portend death? Well, the look the ghosts had when they were mouthing their warnings is it).”

Ah, so “G” is an X-Files fan. :) Is it possible “G” was simply telling you what you wanted to hear so to speak in order reinforce a shared belief in the paranormal? The reason I ask is because I remember doing that as a kid and I’ve noticed this kind of thing on those “Ghost Hunter” type shows where one person will go “Did you hear that?” and then the other person will go “No” but then start listening intently and then go “Wait, I think hear something!” and then both of them scream. :)

Caryn wrote:A respected physicist, whose name I will withhold for privacy, sent the following to me after I approached him, highlighting the above observable effects and a few not listed above:

“The "wavy" part accords with my modeling of general relativistic (GR) effects as being analogous to changes in the refractive index of the vacuum, mimicking exactly what you see when water waves, or when atmospheric heat waves over a road cause ripples. Most interesting.

Generally speaking, your description indicates physicality, which is of interest. And even the surreal shifts I could interpret in terms of a change in the properties of the vacuum along GR lines.”

Hmm… a “respected” physicist who doesn’t want his name mentioned? Anyone we know by chance? :) I’m sorry but this most definitely sounds like pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo to me. I would say this physicist has conveniently ignored the astronomical amount of energy required to create such a “GR effect” locally… I imagine that amount of energy (several stars worth? lol) concentrated in such a small area would have permanent adverse effects on the surroundings… not the least of which is you. :) It seems far more likely to me that the relatively infitesimal amount of energy needed by your brain to create such a visual/perceptional distortion is a far more likely explanation.

I second Ryan’s advice, I see no reason not to seek out a second (preferably “mainstream”) medical opinion… who knows, you may have some condition that needs attention and new advances are being made all the time. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to ask…
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Postby lost_shaman » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:19 pm

Access Denied wrote:
lost-shaman wrote:That is a nice correlation, although I'd expect some percentage of the control group to have also observed 'UFOs'. Does this get any discussion in the Study?

Interesting observation however I think maybe the point is moot… there may very well be some percentage of the control group who have seen “UFOs”, conceivably even higher than the national (?) average of 10% you suggested (source?), however I propose there’s a third category of “UFO experiencers”… those who have seen “UFOs” and aren’t really all that concerned about it and therefore most likely wouldn’t respond to an ad for looking for “UFO experiencers”. :)


Well, it's well known that most people who observe UFOs/UAP (visual sightings in the atmosphere) do not report their sightings. I'd say that this is most likely because people don't want to be associated with the stigma associated with UFOs (fear of ridicule), not that these people just aren't concerned about it as you suggested.


Access Denied wrote:If so, this raises the question of what is the psychology behind “UFO experiencers”… in particular where does the desire (?) to “come forward” and “share” their experiences with others come from?


Isn't that normal Human behavior? To share our experiences with others.

When you say "UFO experiencers", are you talking about people who've observed strange behaving lights and shapes in the sky or the people who 'believe' they've been abducted or are in contact with 'Aliens'? These are clearly two different groups of people reporting two completely different stimuli.


Access Denied wrote: Is it validation they seek? If so, why?


It depends on which group of people you're talking about. For instance people have always since recorded history reported observations of every type of phenomena observed in the atmosphere or the sky. This is something quite different from reports by people since recorded history that report Gods, Angels, Demons, Ghosts, Trolls, Goblins, Incubi and Succubi, etc.






Access Denied wrote: Could it be because in reality (aka Psych 101 to some lol) they’re:

1. Subconsciously unsure of what they saw?
2. Seeking attention?
3. Genuinely “freaked out”?

All of the above?


Again you'd have to clarify what group of people and what stimuli you're asking about.




Access Denied wrote:
lost-shaman wrote:Also does age bias the results if we are dealing with a very rarely observed phenomena considering the largest control group was made up of Students?

Well, if I’m reading the graph on p.11 of this 1975 paper by Vallee correctly for example…

Basic Patterns in UFO Observations
http://www.jacquesvallee.net/bookdocs/AIAA.pdf

…the (significant) majority (21%) are in the age 10-15 group, 36% are in the age 10-20 group combined, and a full 52% are in the age 0-25 group total so I would have to say there doesn’t appear to be any bias in the selection of the control group. :)


Well the student control group were students who were presumably young and spending the majority of their time at or near the University. Vallee points out that "observations were not found in areas of high population density. This finding is substantiated by the statistics of Figure 10, showing that in approximately 70 percent of the cases, the site of the close approach is a relatively deserted or isolated area." This means the student control group could easily be insulated from observations of UFOs/UAP compared to a cross section of their peers who are not isolated near one Urban area.



Access Denied wrote:[I have “issues” with Vallee’s perspective but I figured it would be less controversial to cite his data as opposed to someone like Klass lol]

Interestingly, this peak at an early age corresponds with the graph of “Age of First Sleep Paralysis Episode” cited in Caryn’s article…

http://www.starstreamresearch.com/sleep ... 0study.JPG


Vallee seem to be discussing visual observations, not abduction experiences. He also discusses as I suggested above that the lack of reports from young adults age 20 - 40 is likely the result of "fear or ridicule" by peers.

If we talk strictly about observations of rare phenomena in the atmosphere (involuntary observations) then statistically older individuals are more likely to have been involuntary observers than younger individuals in their lifetimes.

That said, lifestyle and geographic location may play in important role here that may in fact give younger individuals (say between 15 and 30 year olds) a statistically greater chance of observing rare atmospheric phenomena when we consider that the vast majority of UFO/UAP observations occur at night between roughly 7:00 pm and 3:00 am. Where it may be true that younger individuals are more likely than older individuals to be outside and active during these peak hours of UFO/UAP activity.

Vallee seems to show this in Figure 8 where we can see the number of potential involuntary observers falls dramatically while at the same time UFO/UAP activity rises dramatically.


Access Denied wrote:Conversely however, the smaller secondary peak (11%) in the age 40-45 group in Vallee’s chart of UFO witnesses does NOT correlate with those of the “extreme” group.

I’ve heard lots of folk experience a resurgence of their UFO interest around that same age (~30 years later). Not sure if that’s of any significance but I do find it interesting…


Maybe the 'fear of ridicule' diminishes with time?

Edit: That was what happened with me after my own UAP observation.
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Postby caryn » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:30 pm

AD:

AD>>Was it unusual for the TV not to be getting good reception? Could this not have been a coincidence?<<

Not normal, no. If it had have been I would have stated as such.

AD>>Ah, so “G” is an X-Files fan. Is it possible “G” was simply telling you what you wanted to hear so to speak in order reinforce a shared belief in the paranormal? <<

Not an X-Files fan myself so haven’t seen the episode ‘G’ cites. What I wanted to hear? Why are you assuming that I would want to hear tales of the paranormal, or that ‘G’ had any interest in the paranormal?

AD>>The reason I ask is because I remember doing that as a kid and I’ve noticed this kind of thing on those “Ghost Hunter” type shows where one person will go “Did you hear that?” and then the other person will go “No” but then start listening intently and then go “Wait, I think hear something!” and then both of them scream<<

Yes, I’ve seen it myself on numerous occasions. This wasn’t a case of ghost stories around the camp-fire though, ‘G’ and I didn’t regularly obsess about the paranormal. I had crawled down the hallway from the bedroom for help. ‘G’ was momentarily stunned before jumping forward to help me. Perhaps it was just the horrified look on my face that had him stunned, he, later adding the sentient smoke factor in for ‘atmosphere’. Having a little trouble with an explanation for the hair and night attire whipping about though – a bizarre but also mundane case of static perhaps?

It’s common for people experiencing Sleep Paralysis/hypnogogia to dream that they have got up and moved around the room. On contacting several medical experts in the field of sleep disorders it was evident that it’s not the norm to actually physically move and remain in partial paralysis while hallucinating and being fully aware all at the same time. Perhaps you could try a few of the neurology departments that I contacted to see what you make of their comments – I’d appreciate your interpretation.

AD>>Hmm… a “respected” physicist who doesn’t want his name mentioned?<<

To give him his due, I didn’t ask for his permission to quote him – so withheld his name out of courtesy. As to the pseudo-scientific. I’ll have to take your word for it, AD – I’m not a physicist, so really wouldn’t know.
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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:45 am

In 1985, at the age of 25, I had my first experience of ASP (awareness during sleep paralysis). I did not experience any sensations of a malevolent presence, often associated with ASP but suffered a good degree of anxiety due to the fact that I couldn’t move. This occurred some 15 times over a period of 6 months, each time I would try to call out, or attempt to get to the edge of the bed to drop myself to the floor, believing this manoeuvre would somehow break the paralysis.


Caryn - during a phone conversation with a man who had assisted with a good number of AF Blue Book UFO investigations, one of the comments he made really fascinated me, and provided another perspective to what people experience when it comes to the paranormal, such as UFO's and "encounters".

He said that too many of the AF investigation focused on what was going on at the immediate moment of the sighting - for example, people were driving along, saw lights in the sky which approached the vehicle, hovered, and there were several hours of "missing time". In many examples these folks also allegedly experienced "enhanced" psi abilities from that moment on.

One of his most telling comments during our phone conversations (he is a physicist by the way, and still researches this field, to this day) was that he wished more of the AF investigators would have gathered more information about events that were occurring in the person's life immediately before and immediately after the event. He said, most often, this information provided far more answers than the minute details of the event did.

I know you probably can't provide such private details publicly, but I think it would be fascinating to examine what was occurring in your life immediately before you had the first experience at the age of 25. Those details might very well provide a enormous insight and would put the events into much better context...

Were there changes or events in your life, were you doing anything for the first time that you'd never done before, etc...

-Ry
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Postby caryn » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:16 am

ryguy wrote: I know you probably can't provide such private details publicly, but I think it would be fascinating to examine what was occurring in your life immediately before you had the first experience at the age of 25. Those details might very well provide a enormous insight and would put the events into much better context...

-Ry


I can say that at the age of 25 I was very content with my life and my understanding of my place within the universe. Enjoying a large circle of acedemic friends, exceptionally healthy, happily married with a beautiful 2 year old daughter, money, nice cars and a lovely big house.

Respectfully - I would like to refer you back to your post "Guide to Dealing with Hauntings" for a moment of reflection.
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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:50 pm

caryn wrote:Respectfully - I would like to refer you back to your post "Guide to Dealing with Hauntings" for a moment of reflection.


Yes...and elsewhere on their website you can find some of the observed "causes" of some hauntings, many times related to human activities surrounding a location or item around which paranormal activities take place....an excellent source of additional reflection (and another reason I asked you the question above).

Since you pointed it out....I think it would be an enormous benefit to explore the articles on that website - paranormal investigators who have seen hundreds upon hundreds of cases and have learned what works and what doesn't. You may be surprised to learn what they discovered does work... Maybe even a few ideas to try in your situation?

btw...I didn't ask you how happy, content, or aware of your place in the universe you were...I asked if there was anything new or unique taking place in your life prior to the event.

Or is what caused these events in your life a foregone conclusion? I thought you were asking for input. My apologies if I misunderstood.

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lost_shaman » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:57 pm

ryguy wrote: when it comes to the paranormal, such as UFO's and "encounters".


Observations of UFOs/UAP in the atmosphere are not paranormal events.



ryguy wrote:He said that too many of the AF investigation focused on what was going on at the immediate moment of the sighting - for example, people were driving along, saw lights in the sky which approached the vehicle, hovered, and there were several hours of "missing time". In many examples these folks also allegedly experienced "enhanced" psi abilities from that moment on.

One of his most telling comments during our phone conversations (he is a physicist by the way, and still researches this field, to this day) was that he wished more of the AF investigators would have gathered more information about events that were occurring in the person's life immediately before and immediately after the event. He said, most often, this information provided far more answers than the minute details of the event did.


One of the ways it was proposed to discredit the UFO Phenomena was to focus on the witnesses themselves rather than the observations reported by the witnesses. Note how Dr. Robert Low describes this "trick".

Memo from Dr. Robert Low to university officials on August 9, 1966

Our study would be conducted almost exclusively by nonbelievers who, although they couldn't possibly prove a negative result could, and probably would, add an impressive body of evidence that there is no reality to the observations. The trick would be, I think, to describe the project so that, to the public, it would appear a totally objective study but to the scientific community would present the image of a group of nonbelievers trying their best to be objective, but having almost zero expectation of finding a saucer. One way to do this would be to stress investigation, not of physical phenomena, but rather of the people who do the observing - the psychology and sociology of persons and groups who report seeing UFOs. If the emphasis were put here, rather than on examination of the old question of the physical reality of the saucer, I think the scientific community would quickly get the message... I'm inclined to feel at this early stage that, if we set up the thing right and take pains to get proper people involved and have success in presenting the image we want to present to the scientific community, we could carry the job off to our benefit.
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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:10 pm

lost_shaman wrote:
ryguy wrote: when it comes to the paranormal, such as UFO's and "encounters".


Observations of UFOs/UAP in the atmosphere are not paranormal events.


Observations of orbs in the sky, which lack any immediate scientific explanation prior to a full investigation and analysis are similar to observations of orbs in/around houses - which are also typically considered paranormal events. That is, if we're working from the same definition of "paranormal" - Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:.

ryguy wrote:One of the ways it was proposed to discredit the UFO Phenomena was to focus on the witnesses themselves rather than the observations reported by the witnesses. Note how Dr. Robert Low describes this "trick".


No....you've misunderstood. This particular physicist was conducting his own personal private investigations, for his own personal research. He wanted to get to the source of the sighting - not the lame explanations many of the AF investigators offered. In a majority of cases - this particular physicist discovered important spiritual/metaphysical events in the person's life before and after the specific sighting. The AF investigators had failed to inquire about such matters - and most of those details were completely left out of the Blue Book reports.

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Postby lost_shaman » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:32 pm

ryguy wrote:
Observations of orbs in the sky, which lack any immediate scientific explanation prior to a full investigation and analysis are similar to observations of orbs in/around houses - which are also typically considered paranormal events. That is, if we're working from the same definition of "paranormal" - Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:.


Scientists in Europe have investigated UAP in Hessdalen for over 25 years, these sometimes seem to be attracted to Houses, Automobiles, and even people. They certainly are not beyond the range of Scientific explaination. Thus these UAP are not paranormal, but are outside the range of normal experience because these are rare and strange events.
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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:39 pm

lost_shaman wrote:Scientists in Europe have investigated UAP in Hessdalen for over 25 years, these sometimes seem to be attracted to Houses, Automobiles, and even people. They certainly are not beyond the range of Scientific explaination. Thus these UAP are not paranormal, but are outside the range of normal experience because these are rare and strange events.


Oh really? So scientists know what they are then?

Remote viewing has been investigated for far longer - the phenomenon remains considered "paranormal". Why? Because if you gather together 30 reputable scientists in the same room - they will not be able to agree on what "it" really is.

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Postby caryn » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:14 pm

Ryan,

>>>btw...I didn't ask you how happy, content, or aware of your place in the universe you were...I asked if there was anything new or unique taking place in your life prior to the event.<<<

No – is that concise enough? Is there a valid reason for the poor attitude?

Having spoken to me on a number of occasions you know very well that I don’t have a foregone conclusion – but you also know that I do not believe aliens are visiting me, ghosts or any other type of ghoul. There was a valid reason why I referred you back to your post, which I was hoping to elaborate on later and it had nothing to do with ghosts.

Yes, I did request input, but to be perfectly frank I was expecting more than the hurling of first level psychology. To put it simply Ryan, I’m as insulted with this as you might be if I were to attempt to teach you to tie your shoelace.

There is a dark irony here which has had me intrigued for some time now.

You, Ryan, have admitted a belief in Angels and Demons. I wonder if you would have taken a different attitude if I had come to you with concerns of demonic possession. Would you be more ready to believe that than the possibility that I present – namely, that there are hidden and yet uncharted depths to the human psyche that just might be the cause of some of my experiences?

Which out of the two would be the most probable, the most logical, the most scientific explanation – assuming the more obvious and mundane explanations have long since been methodologically ruled out?

Everyone is a delusional nut – apart from those who believe in Angels and Demons. That’s a little too archaic for my modern millie comfort zone.


Sadly, I think you and I are finally done here.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:02 am

caryn wrote:No – is that concise enough? Is there a valid reason for the poor attitude?


Yes, concise enough here - but you and I both know it isn't the whole story. I asked what I asked because I was curious why you left out the most important part of the experiences. At least the part I believe is most relevant, but I guess you do not.

Having spoken to me on a number of occasions you know very well that I don’t have a foregone conclusion


Quite frankly Caryn...just as you believe I have a foregone conclusion about demonology....I guess I could say I've come to the same conclusion about you - regarding the theory you've outlined a few posts up.

– but you also know that I do not believe aliens are visiting me, ghosts or any other type of ghoul.


I know...as I said, you outlined your "beliefs" in your hypothesis a few posts previous. Or is it already a proven scientific fact that the phenomenon is a product of the human psyche?

There was a valid reason why I referred you back to your post, which I was hoping to elaborate on later and it had nothing to do with ghosts.


Yes...and as usual you incorrectly assume that it went over my head.

Yes, I did request input, but to be perfectly frank I was expecting more than the hurling of first level psychology. To put it simply Ryan, I’m as insulted with this as you might be if I were to attempt to teach you to tie your shoelace.


In this respect Caryn - the feeling has always been mutual.

There is a dark irony here which has had me intrigued for some time now.

You, Ryan, have admitted a belief in Angels and Demons. I wonder if you would have taken a different attitude if I had come to you with concerns of demonic possession. Would you be more ready to believe that than the possibility that I present – namely, that there are hidden and yet uncharted depths to the human psyche that just might be the cause of some of my experiences?


The irony, Caryn, is that I can accept the possible reality of both hypothesis. I could approach a phenomenon and entertain the idea that it could be demons, or that it could be the human psyche. I'm willing to openly accept, entertain, discuss, and test both ideas (and others).

You, on the other hand...are more likely to cringe and run away when certain topics/hypothesis arise in discussion. Why? Because you've already made up your mind.

Which out of the two would be the most probable, the most logical, the most scientific explanation – assuming the more obvious and mundane explanations have long since been methodologically ruled out?


In all honesty? Neither.

Sadly, I think you and I are finally done here.


Caryn...you and I were done months ago.

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Postby lost_shaman » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:50 am

ryguy wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Scientists in Europe have investigated UAP in Hessdalen for over 25 years, these sometimes seem to be attracted to Houses, Automobiles, and even people. They certainly are not beyond the range of Scientific explaination. Thus these UAP are not paranormal, but are outside the range of normal experience because these are rare and strange events.


Oh really? So scientists know what they are then?


Scientists are able to study the Phenomena which absolutely means these are physical not paranormal events.


ryguy wrote:Remote viewing has been investigated for far longer - the phenomenon remains considered "paranormal". Why? Because if you gather together 30 reputable scientists in the same room - they will not be able to agree on what "it" really is.

-Ry


Not every 'scientist' has seen 'sprites' does this mean 'sprites' do not exist?

The bottom line here is that the failure to prove 'remote viewing' is not a failure to prove the existence of UFOs/UAP!
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Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:18 am

ryguy wrote:
Yes, concise enough here - but you and I both know it isn't the whole story. I asked what I asked because I was curious why you left out the most important part of the experiences. At least the part I believe is most relevant, but I guess you do not.


What have I left out? (certainly not deliberately). What do you consider to be the most important part?

Personally, I think the most important part of the experiences has been laid out and side-stepped. That being the observable effects of the phenomenon. The incident detailed above appears to rest outside of currently known effects of SP. If you have obtained information to the contrary, present it, that is what I was hoping to see and it would have been helpful.

Quite frankly Caryn...just as you believe I have a foregone conclusion about demonology....I guess I could say I've come to the same conclusion about you - regarding the theory you've outlined a few posts up.


A theory by definition is a theory, not a foregone conclusion, Ryan. If I were content with my speculations I would not be wasting my hours pursuing other leads.



Or is it already a proven scientific fact that the phenomenon is a product of the human psyche?


I said: Would you be more ready to believe that than the possibility that I present – namely, that there are hidden and yet uncharted depths to the human psyche that just might be the cause of some of my experiences?

How did you manage to convert 'possibilty', 'hidden' and 'uncharted' into me stating it's a fact? You can read through everything I have written - I have not presented a theory as a fact - I have not once presented a conclusion because I do not have one. I present ideas, but I will gladly accept any reality, if and when it can be proven - that is what I have spent the last 30 years pursuing, after all. Until then, it's all speculation.

As for running away, Ryan, what a silly thing to say. I have been to places that would probably make your blood curdle, in an attempt to get answers...you don't know the half of my story Ryan, because I have purposely not discussed it with you, mainly due to your beliefs and tendency to get snared in bouts of paranoia.

Dealing with you has often been like walking on cracked ice.

You have very good analytical skills, as does Steve. But you don't hold all the answers Ryan, and I suspect most of us never will given the subject matter - but a little respect for those who have been pursuing the answers since before you were born wouldn't go amiss once in a while. Taking the time to listen to what someone has to say, what they may have unearthed and what they may have explored to exhaustion - instead of leaping in and offering hypotheses that have long since been set aside, would be far more beneficial for all in the long run.
caryn
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:11 pm

caryn wrote:
What have I left out? (certainly not deliberately). What do you consider to be the most important part?


Not the most important part, but an important aspect of your story. It is also circumstantial evidence that might add more weight to the external/demonological theory, and take weight away from the internal/human psyche theory. In my humble opinion Caryn, you might not even intentionally be ignoring it (or sidestepping it), but instead are inadvertently simply failing to connect the two events.

I'm not going to publicly divulge anything you've ever shared privately. That's not my place, and it's why I leave it up to you do so if you so choose, or not. I really don't care either way.

A theory by definition is a theory, not a foregone conclusion, Ryan. If I were content with my speculations I would not be wasting my hours pursuing other leads.


Thank you Caryn. Now flip that explanation around and point it in the other direction.

I said: Would you be more ready to believe that than the possibility that I present – namely, that there are hidden and yet uncharted depths to the human psyche that just might be the cause of some of my experiences?


Yes. I think by now we can both agree that you are more ready to believe the human psyche hypothesis, and that I am more ready to accept the hypothesis that the phenomenon comes from external energies, not from us.

How did you manage to convert 'possibilty', 'hidden' and 'uncharted' into me stating it's a fact? You can read through everything I have written - I have not presented a theory as a fact - I have not once presented a conclusion because I do not have one. I present ideas, but I will gladly accept any reality, if and when it can be proven - that is what I have spent the last 30 years pursuing, after all. Until then, it's all speculation.


Exactly - it's all speculation, so why do you have so much heartburn when someone presents a theory that goes against the one that you personally find much more easy to "accept"?

As for running away, Ryan, what a silly thing to say. I have been to places that would probably make your blood curdle, in an attempt to get answers...you don't know the half of my story Ryan, because I have purposely not discussed it with you, mainly due to your beliefs and tendency to get snared in bouts of paranoia.


lol...now if that isn't the perfect case of the pot calling the kettle black...there is none. You run away from theories that might weaken the hypothesis that you find most palatable.

Why? Well...I suspect it's likely because your hypothesis puts the power on you....it allows you to believe that you are one step higher than everyone else on the "evolutionary" ladder....hence you come to believe that you posess a sort of psychic ability that has created the phenomenon around you.

And the reason you despise the "external forces" hypothesis so much, and find it so horribly unpalatable, is because of the terrible implications it has in your case. I don't blame you for it - but I do take offense to your constant implication that anyone who doesn't believe your hypothesis is the most likely or plausible one is simply naive, or ignorant. Quite frankly I'm just about as sick of it as you apparently are of me.

....instead of leaping in and offering hypotheses that have long since been set aside, would be far more beneficial for all in the long run.


Oh yes, that's right..... Apparently Caryn Anscomb setting aside a hypothesis means that it is one that no longer merits any attention or discussion. I guess someone should alert the press that you've figured it all out then huh?

You might want to consider, Caryn, that there's a great deal I've not shared with you about my life....for the very reason that from the first moment I met you, it was clear that you had already cancelled out hypothesis that hold a great deal of very real evidence in the lives of folks who've been studying the field as long, or longer, than you have. Perish the thought.

Excuse me for "...leaping in and offering hypothesis" that you find so offensive Caryn. There might be some places that are more conducive to examining only those hypothesis that you find palatable - but this isn't one of those places.

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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