Are sleep disorders and UFO experiences related?

General UFO stories

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Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:28 pm

I’m assuming you’re talking about my occult involvement? It’s not a secret, I have mentioned it a number of times on the lists etc. I first got involved with an occult group in the very early 80s. I was attracted to them because unlike the wiccan tradition, they were not faith based, took a very methodological approach, a number of them having science backgrounds. My involvement does mean that I’m a little more experientially qualified to make comment on some of the nonsense attributed to such groups, than those with no previous experience.

As to it being the cause of some of my experiences – I would expect that from someone with a Christian background and little knowledge of what actually takes place within such a group. I’m not knocking you here, at all, - I do genuinely accept why you might think the way you are. I can only try to assure you, that in my case at least, it’s not so – I am the one who was there and I have given this a great deal of thought myself, Ryan. The truth is, like most of these things, far more benign and boring than most would like to think.


Ry: >>And the reason you despise the "external forces" hypothesis so much, and find it so horribly unpalatable, is because of the terrible implications it has in your case.<<

This is very poignant for me, Ryan. On one had you’re completely right, the implications are abhorrent to me. But I have got to tell you that my searching for an external ‘culprit’ was/is to ease my own conscience. I would love you to be right, or the ET believers, for that one fact alone. So, no, you are wrong on this one – my current working hypothesis is far from comfy for me.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:46 pm

caryn wrote:This is very poignant for me, Ryan. On one had you’re completely right, the implications are abhorrent to me. But I have got to tell you that my searching for an external ‘culprit’ was/is to ease my own conscience. I would love you to be right, or the ET believers, for that one fact alone. So, no, you are wrong on this one – my current working hypothesis is far from comfy for me.


Caryn - this is really painful for me, because ultimately I like - dare I even say feel great friendship and very strong feelings toward you as a person. I always have, despite our differing hypothesis, which has pulled us slowly apart over the past year. One thing that we've always shared in common is that we two, at least, believe that the phenomenon is a real one...that these unexplainable things do occur, and they occur often. It's a world-view I think we both share. We just see the explanation for them in different light.

The painful part of this is that if the "external energies" hypothesis is true, it would appear that I am shoving that knife of guilt deeper into your heart....if these unseen forces can be "drawn in" by our own activities. But this is, in fact, what I often comment appears most plausible - and I know how terrible and insensitive that sounds - but it is also why I can understand why you hate that particular hypothesis so much. It doesn't give me any warm-fuzzies either - especially in light of the talks we've had, and I know how painful the experience has been to you and your family.

And it is a very uncomfortable belief, because it means that the phenomenon can not be controlled nor tamed by our own "psi abilities"....but instead controlled by an intelligence outside of ourselves. To me - your hypothesis of the phenomenon source coming from our own psyche is much more comfortable, because it gives hope that in learning to control or command the ability - one can reel in the phenomenon through our own internal strength and power.

So far anyone we've talked with, regardless of their profession, each has distinctly different opinions - not a single theologan or scientist has ultimately agreed. So I doubt we will have much luck in trying to agree here, either.

I think the best we can hope for is to mutually respect eachother's hypothesis - and not belittle or insult anyone else's hypothesis. (I am admonishing myself here as well...I'll be the first to admit I fail in that respect often).

Cheers,
-Ryan
Last edited by ryguy on Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:56 pm

>>Personally - I see nothing at all benign and boring about what has subsequently happened to you before, during, and after you've investigated these matters in those "blood-curdling" ways.<<

I didn't make that very clear - I was referring specifically to the occult groups - not the experiences.


You raised a valid point, Ryan - it probably needed to be put forward. Don't feel bad - I do enough of that for myself.

Actually - I thought you were trying to hint that I was delusional initially, rather than in a possible state on denial. Hence my reaction. I do hate this medium for communication!
Last edited by caryn on Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:02 pm

caryn wrote:You raised a valid point, Ryan - it probably needed to be put forward. Don't feel bad - I do enough of that for myself.

Actually - I thought you were trying to hint that I was dillusional initially, rather than in a possible state on denial. Hence my reaction. I do hate this medium for communication!


Delusional? Hell no....lol.

I can't speak for Steve though. :shock:

lol

**ps: sorry for the edits above re: the "blood-curdling" bit, after I saw your post above, I realized there's no sense in beating a dead horse! :) **

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Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:13 pm

LOL

Wish you could cure my hideous grammatical problem.


*** Mod Edit: A more metaphysical discussion that evolved out of this thread continues in the thread: Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origin? ***
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Postby lost_shaman » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:37 am

ryguy wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:
ryguy wrote: when it comes to the paranormal, such as UFO's and "encounters".


Observations of UFOs/UAP in the atmosphere are not paranormal events.


Observations of orbs in the sky, which lack any immediate scientific explanation prior to a full investigation and analysis are similar to observations of orbs in/around houses - which are also typically considered paranormal events.


Not to kick a dead Horse, but...

I've also seen 'Dust', 'Insects', 'Rain', 'Snow', and other particulates in Digital photos using a flash called 'Orbs'!!! :shock:

Thinking these things are 'Paranormal' is the exact same thing as the (Alien) "believers" thinking every 'Iridium Flare" they see is an 'Alien Spacecraft' communicating with them!!! :shock:

How do we even deem a physical Phenomena that's truly 'observable' as being outside the 'realm' of Science in the first place?

Isn't the 'Paranormal' itself just an Oxymoron? Where the 'Paranormal' is considered to be rare but common-place observations by people yet the methodology of Science, it is assumed, will fail to make similar observations!!! :shock:



Edit:

It is often wrongly assumed by many people that Science and Methodology can not be applied to sightings of 'UFOs' because any ONE sighting could be an Alien Spacecraft not because Science and Methodology can not be applied to observations of luminous phenomena in the atmosphere!
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:35 pm

Now that I’ve had some time to catch up…

caryn wrote:What I wanted to hear? Why are you assuming that I would want to hear tales of the paranormal, or that ‘G’ had any interest in the paranormal?

I wasn’t assuming anything hence the reason I asked the question “Is it possible?” :)

That said however, I will admit I subscribe to the Psychosocial Hypothesis (PSH) as the most likely explanation for unexplained UFO/Paranormal experiences and as Ryan mentioned (albeit from a different angle than his approach) I think it’s important to take prior beliefs/experiences into account when trying to understand someone’s perception/interpretation of events.

caryn wrote:Having a little trouble with an explanation for the hair and night attire whipping about though – a bizarre but also mundane case of static perhaps?

I don’t know, but now that you mention it, I suppose it’s possible if you had been moving around a lot while still unconscious? Interesting theory, hadn’t thought of that one. :)

caryn wrote:It’s common for people experiencing Sleep Paralysis/hypnogogia to dream that they have got up and moved around the room. On contacting several medical experts in the field of sleep disorders it was evident that it’s not the norm to actually physically move and remain in partial paralysis while hallucinating and being fully aware all at the same time.

No doubt it’s not “normal” however is it possible what you experienced may be some sort of cross between “sleep walking” and SP? This account for example has some aspects to it that seem similar to your experience…

Sleep walking and sleep paralysis. Can't wake up!
http://www.sleepnet.com/rest/messages/130.html

I'm a about a once a month sleep walker and I experience sleep paralysis regularly.

After a few thousand instances of sleep paralyses, I've learned not to be alarmed when it happens, and just try to relax and go back to sleep. (unless I think I'm late for work or if I'm sleeping on my arm).

My Sleep walking is a different story and seems to be getting weirder as I get older (male/25). I have mild recollections of my sleepwalking. I remember them as anxiety dreams. Usually about work or being thirsty. It usually takes someone to tell me what I did for me to recall the instance. This "remembering" contradicts what I've read elsewhere, though, which says you can't remember sleep walking events.

In many instances, I'm wandering around the office at work (actually my apartment) looking for some important fax. I can hear telephones ringing and my co-workers talking.

Eventually I realize I'm not at work, but I'm at home and it's 3:00 AM. I still hear voices and telephones, but I manage to convince myself to go lay in bed and my busy work day continues through my head.

A few months ago, I had my first real social encounter while I was sleep walking and it was very disturbing:

I was probably just getting a drink of gator-aid (my favorite night time drink), when my roommate grabbed me (this is when I started remembering). He started shooting questions at me. I tried to talk, but I could only produce garbly gook and snorting sounds. He started laughing. As a lucid dreamer, I realized my situation, but I wasn’t waking up.

I was never forced to be self-conscious about any sleep-walking situation. I tried talking again: More garbly gook.

The mental sensation I had was similar to sleep paralysis. My surroundings felt surreal and I was imagining strange things. Their were voices and laughter and I thought their were other people in the apartment. I was becoming very creeped out. That’s where the similarities with sleep paralysis/nightmare ended though.

All my physical actions felt animated and I felt disembodied. I had no idea how I was keeping my balance and I had no control of my breathing. It was weird. I felt very confrontational and afraid. One moment I would feel very antagonized and ready to attack my roommate, the other minute I was just trying to get my barring and trying to rationalize what was going on with me. I thought I was having a stroke or something. I started cursing, saying “Oh Sh*T”, oh sh*t, but of course it came out as unintelligible yells. I was extremely paranoid and wanted to go to the hospital, I thought I was in a permanent situation. I tried fumbling with the phone, but had no motor control. It was all I could do to make it back to bed where I could feel safe. The last thing I remember was going into my room.

I confronted my roommate about it the next day. He confirmed I was sleepwalking, but all that I did was stumble into the kitchen. He said he moved my arm and said “excuse me” while he reached for something in the fridge. He said I mumbled something in coherent, which he thought was funny and he went about his business. The whole incident: leaving my room, going to the kitchen and going back to my room, took less than 30 seconds (felt like an hour, of course). And I never had the phone in my possession.

In my opinion, a part of my brain was shut down since their were some functions I could not do, like talk or control my breathing. Obviously, I was in a dream state since half the things that happened were imagined.

I've never done any drugs or anything that would cause such a experience, so if anyone has any input, I'd be interested to here it.

Perhaps you can compare notes?

caryn wrote:As to the pseudo-scientific. I’ll have to take your word for it, AD – I’m not a physicist, so really wouldn’t know.

Nor am I (although I was raised by one :))… but what I can tell you is there are a number of “new age” physicists out there (e.g. Sarfatti, has anybody here NOT read The Dancing Wu Li Masters?) who exploit that fact to advance their “theories” upon the unsuspecting “lay person” (or potential investors as in the case of Dan Smith and our feathered friends lol) and they should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. In my case, thanks to the field I work I in (R&D), I’m fortunate to have a number of experts I can consult (and who’s opinions I trust) whenever I come across an extraordinary claim that involves anything beyond my own limited area of expertise and understanding. In many cases though the information one needs to evaluate these types of claims for themselves is readily available on the Internet these days. For example…

A Quantum of Common Sense
http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/quantum.htm

It seems these days there is no shortage of "quantum" machines, or "quantum" explanations that will cure all known ills, generate unlimited "free" energy, communicate with the dead, explain personal "reverse causality" or perform any other highly improbable thing you can think of. One might be tempted to be skeptical, except that it's just "science" isn't it? Doesn't quantum mechanics prove all these things to be true? Decide for yourself...

I highly recommend anyone interested in alternative topics read this article to “arm” themselves. After a fascinating (IMHO) introduction into the basic concepts of Quantum Mechanics (the section on Quantum Electrodynamics or "QED" and the “Principal of Least Action” is particularly relevant) the article then explains the…

The Great Quantum Confidence Trick

Above I have attempted to give a brief(!) overview of some of the basic and major ideas behind quantum mechanics, particularly the more "weird" or controversial ones. Since this is aimed at lay people I have not attempted to make it rigorous or mathematical, and it would take more than a book to make it complete! But I hope it gives a basic idea of what quantum mechanics is all about. Most people have no real idea of quantum mechanics, and many popular accounts tend to concentrate on the more fantastic and outrageous ideas for sensational effect value. However, many such accounts are nothing more than idle speculation. Quantum mechanics is not about "consciousness" or "paranormal" effects. It is a legitimate branch of physics which although having certain unusual philosophical viewpoints, is nonetheless firmly grounded in the traditions and methods of classical physics and science in general.

I would now like to look at some examples of how quantum mechanics is "misused" by various people as a justification for "the paranormal". There is no doubt whatsoever that the majority of people who claim that something improbable is "justified by quantum mechanics", have absolutely no idea what quantum mechanics is all about. In many cases, such people know perfectly well that the average lay person doesn't either, and they rely on this ignorance to mislead people into buying bogus products or accepting improbable claims. I have observed many attempts by various people to promote dubious "products" based on misrepresentations of quantum mechanics. Based on those observations I think it is worth pointing out some common traits in such attempts.

Check it out and let me know what you think. Anything sound familiar? That site also has a number of other interesting articles you may be interested in…

Psuedoscience
http://www.skepticreport.com/general/m- ... cience.htm

Psychic Powers
http://www.skepticreport.com/general/m- ... powers.htm

[assuming you haven't explored that site already]
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Postby caryn » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:52 pm

>>No doubt it’s not “normal” however is it possible what you experienced may be some sort of cross between “sleep walking” and SP? <<

Thanks AD,

It has certainly occurred to me and might be a plausible explanation if it were not for the wide-awake witnesses and the incident with the daughter - plus the fact that I was fully alert. My brother used to sleep walk when younger. He would be completely incoherent and remember nothing about it when he woke.

Thorny one isn't it? Please keep offering your thoughts though - it IS very much appreciated.

I'm just about to take a look at the sites.
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Postby caryn » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:32 pm

Ok, yes. I’m a skeptic myself AD. Moving within the occult community for a number of years, I’ve encountered more than a few Kooks and charlatans in my time. I’m not easily hoodwinked.

Being naturally of the skeptical mind-set, I’m not content with knowing that a lamp works, I need to know how it works. So, contrary to how I might read at times, I don’t assume spooky dealings lightly, and although I try very hard to keep an open mind in regard to other folks ‘weird’ events, I remain selfishly focused on the events in my own life, where witnesses and physical effects have been diligently noted.

Let me give you an example of a fairly minor witnessed event from my teens.

My baby sister’s dolls pram wheeling itself up and down the hallway, several times, in front of several witnesses. Level ground, no one had touched it, we were simply standing chatting at one end of the hallway when it came towards us, slowly...if someone were to have pushed it, another person would be required to be standing at the other end to push it back.

I am not claiming phenomenal psychic power, ghostly activity or ET visitation. I’m describing the event as it was observed, without any form of personal bias – no preconceived certainty of cause (a number of theories maybe). Due to the lack of a satisfactory explanation, the cause becomes what I loosely refer to as the ‘phenomenon’ (a hidden-hand, seemingly operating outside of a generally accepted reality) when I discuss this stuff.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should believe me of course. You would have had to have been there yourself, to be in a position to pass a well informed judgment.

Would I believe someone else telling me this tale? Certainly not without going through all the obvious scenarios…remaining unsatisfactorily resolved, my conclusion would probably be that the person telling the tale has elaborated on the facts, whether wittingly or unwittingly (unless something within the tale, or about the teller, has struck a chord and is placed in that pending box). And this is coming from someone who has witnessed the phenomenon in action, so why am I not at all surprised by, or offended by, the remarks of the hard-core skeptics out there…..but to date, their explanations have not satisfactorily explained MY events, to ME.

It’s kind of funny really – My views are not well liked by the true-believers, but also not well liked by the ardent Skeptic. I often find myself in a kind of no-man’s land, stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:27 pm

I see your dilemma Caryn. Did you mention whether or not you’re still having these experiences? If so it would be fascinating if you could somehow capture these experiences on video for others to see.

[you knew that was coming right?] :)

Obviously I don’t have any answers for you either but concerning your witnesses, there does appear to be some precedent for the possibility of “shared hypnagogia” to occur as mentioned in this article in the Fortean Times regarding Mavromatis’ work…

Hypnagogia
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/ar ... gogia.html

[emphasis mine]

In recent years the most important work on hypnagogia has been done by the psychologist Andreas Mavromatis, who in 1987 published Hypnagogia, an exhaustively researched and deeply pondered exploration of all aspects of the experience. Mavromatis links hypnagogia to dreams, schizophrenia, creativity, meditation, mystical experience, and, most strikingly, paranormal experience. Silberer recognised that hypnagogic visions could be influenced by outside stimuli, either sensory changes – sound, light, scent – or verbal suggestions. Mavromatis discovered that they could also be altered by thought. During experiments in group hypnagogia, Mavromatis found that he could ‘feed’ images mentally to another hypnagogist. A member of one group was experimenting with psychometry, the ability to ‘intuit’ the history of some unknown object simply by touch. As Mavromatis listened to the psychometrist’s account, he began to ‘see’ various different scenes. He then realised that what the psychometrist was describing were the very ‘scenes’ he was seeing. He tested this by consciously altering his visions. The psychometrist began to recount Mavromatis’ new visions as well. Other accounts of ‘shared hypnagogia’ are recounted in Mavromatis’ book.

Mavromatis believes hypnagogia originates in the subcortical structures of the ‘old brain’. During hypnagogic states, the usually dominant neocortex – the evolutionarily recent and specifically ‘human’ part of the brain – is inhibited, and much older structures take over. Cortical activity is associated with clear, logical thought and with the perception of a well defined ‘external’ world. The older brain structures are attuned to inner experience, and to ‘pre-logical’ forms of thought using imagery, symbols and analogy. Mavromatis also remarks that the subcortical structures responsible for hypnagogic phenomena are always active, day or night, something we have already heard from Ouspensky, Moskvitin, Llinas and Pares.

Mavromatis, in a speculative chapter, relates hypnagogia to what is described in Tantric Yoga as the ‘Fourth State’, the junction of waking, sleeping and dreaming. Curiously, this intersection of states is parallelled in the anatomy of the brain itself. Mavromatis points out that the thalamus, which he conjectures is the “centre of consciousness” and the probable source of hypnagogic phenomena, is anatomically linked to the reptilian brain, limbic system and the cerebral hemispheres – the three ‘houses’ of the ‘triune’ brain. Each of the ‘three brains’ has a ‘consciousness’ of its own, and Mavromatis remarks that the consciousness of one would appear very strange to that of another. In hypnagogia this is precisely what happens. If a minimum level of cortical arousal is maintained at the point of sleep – Silberer’s “effort to think” – then the consciousness of the ‘old brain’ can be observed.

Perhaps this “hidden hand” you refer to could be linked to this (admittedly speculative) concept of the “old brain”?

Anyway, might be another angle to pursue assuming you haven’t already…
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Postby caryn » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:30 pm

"[you knew that was coming right?]"

LOL….Yes. The logistics are a bit tricky though. The occurrences are spasmodic, nothing for months/years sometimes. We would need to set up recording equipment and leave it running 24/7 – though I wish something had been in place for that intense 6 week period back in 1990. I would love to have seen how it actually looked from outside, if you know what I mean.

I have been looking into shared hypnagogia, though haven’t seen the article referrenced here. I have also been engaging in some extensive dialogue with someone for around 3 years, on and off, concerning consciousness and the reptilian brain, and the Shamanic experience, and yes, I think there is something to this.

“Each of the ‘three brains’ has a ‘consciousness’ of its own, and Mavromatis remarks that the consciousness of one would appear very strange to that of another”.

I find this of great interest, as it fits in with something I have mentioned a number of times – that being, if the phenomenon we encounter is in fact a part of ourselves not normally consciously encountered, or a Jungian type ‘collective unconscious’, the intelligence would indeed appear very alien to us, surreal, loaded with abstract and/or familiar metaphor, as Mavromatis indicates.

I’m very interested in learning how one person’s ‘implicit’ experience is transmitted to others, becoming ‘explicit’..re: the shared hypnagogic experience. This would indicate that the ‘reptilian brains’ are in communication with each other…You can see where I’m heading with this, no doubt?

More a bit later….good work AD…thank you!

Edited to add a little.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:24 pm

Access Denied wrote:A Quantum of Common Sense
http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/quantum.htm


Great article AD....thanks so much for providing a link! An absolutely mandatory prerequisite for anyone researching this field.

My favorite part:

In many cases, such people know perfectly well that the average lay person doesn't either, and they rely on this ignorance to mislead people into buying bogus products or accepting improbable claims.


Or getting amateur-scientist investors to invest in bogus research... :)

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Postby Gary » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:48 pm

Just a quick note re: the physics of the paranormal:

Forget quantum mechanics: non-locality in QM CANNOT explain the paranormal.

That is why Sarfatti, for all of the abuse he suffers, has for the past ten plus years promoted the idea of a "post-quantum theory."

If you want to explain claims of the paranormal in terms of physics, you are lead to several possible conclusions:

A post quantum theory that violates quantum probabilities (as suggested by Anthony Valentini at the Perimeter Institute) OR (a new "objective reduction collapse process as suggested by Penrose-Hameroff) OR (a new theory of motion for quantum particles with post-quantum selection aka collapse of the wave function based on non-linear evolution as suggested by Gao shan in Beijing) OR etc...

A theory of higher dimensional brane-worlds that interact via gravity or other forces outside of the standard model of physics

A theory of objective reality in a multiverse of parallel universes populated by intelligent systems with access to time machines, since other times are special cases of parallel universes (David Deutsch) -- in which case paranormal phenomena are misinterpretations of human beings of very advanced technology and information about alternative futures provided by our keepers

The simulation hypothesis: this is the "matrix solution" ;

And so on ...
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Postby lost_shaman » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:06 pm

So, did we come to a consensus on this?

That being, Yes 'Abductions' and other mythologies appear to be 'sleep related' experiences while observations of Atmospheric Phenomena clearly from the data available are not 'sleep related'.
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