Project Camelot views and opinions

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Postby dazdude » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:54 am

On the project Camelot front - im concerned with the state of ufo research over the last ten years. It seems that ufology takes anything as a given and not much is done nowadays to check the background of witness testimony and statement before things are posted and written up as real.

I think it is good to start with an one mind and say - OK if you HAVE had covert experience with things not of this world then tell us and we will give you a forum - but in doing so you will be required to submit evidence supporting who you are and your claims - anything less will not get a public forum.


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Postby ryguy » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:50 pm

dazdude wrote:HI I've rechecked the archives and nothing much on this - i have found a couple of references to an 'inscom fiasco' but couldnt pin down what this was either.

Ive seen and read about the mentally unstable young soldier who lied on his application and was affected at Monroe is this the thing we are talking about here?

daz


Yes - exactly, your research has definitely uncovered hints of those events. What's for certain is that it was an event driven by the INSCOM "management" - a project that was, for lack of a better word, not exactly "ethical".

Yes - I believe the "mentally unstable" young soldier was unstablized by the event. As those of us who live and work with people who suffer from some forms of mental illness, while it might always be lingering under the surface, often times a "trigger" sets off a chain reaction where the illness deepens and gets worse. He was definitely affected by his experiences at Monroe.

If you look into why Stubblebine "left" - you'll find that it isn't public knowledge, but those involved in it including other's involved in the research at the time will know why and will either offer hints or flat out tell you privately.

If you know one of the researchers involved for INSCOM - they may be willing to share. I've also been told that Puthoff was intrinsically part of the research that went on here - but that is completely uncorroborated and I also got the feeling that the statement was embellished for other personal reasons, so I don't know for certain to what degree his particular involvement with INSCOM (pre 1985) might have been.

Awesome lead to follow-up on though Daz...I'm pleased your researching this.

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Postby ryguy » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:51 pm

dazdude wrote:I think it is good to start with an one mind and say - OK if you HAVE had covert experience with things not of this world then tell us and we will give you a forum - but in doing so you will be required to submit evidence supporting who you are and your claims - anything less will not get a public forum.

daz


WELL SAID.

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Postby dazdude » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:03 am

well thank you.
but its not all justified.

I personally own and run a large ufo website that has been online since about 1997 - www.crowdedskies.com. It gets about 1million unique visitors a year, but I have got to be honest since the mid 1990s I have seen a real decline in the actual amount of research people would do before they give whistle-blowers and so forth a public forum. This has over time made me angry and made me realise that the subject will never on its own get anywhere - the people are too eager and don not ask enough hard questions of those making claims.

At least when UK ufo reserachers like Tony Dood and Graham Birdsall worked together - they required and investigated the background of the informants and the cases in full - yes they got things wrong now and then - but nowadays its like anyone can read a book on ufos or watch a DVD and bang they are a ufologist and all they really do is help spread the disinformation that is being spoon fed to us in copious amounts.

I mean the serpo thing, and anything involving rick doty and the aviary whatever...lol cmon its a big game.

Any ways im not innocent my webby has allot of unsubstantiated crap within in. I have looked into the subject of ufos since i was 16 so that's over 20 years now and I have hundreds of books, thousands of FOIA ufo docs and hundreds of hours of all the best ufo footage there is so I am sure that there is a multi faceted thing going on which involves;
multidimensional of sorts,
possible et based
military based
disinfo based
maybe even time based
not a single one of these but probably all of these.

But the only way forward is I agree listening to those who claim to have worked in and on projects and things - but they must be made to substantiate their claims - otherwise its just fantasy, its there is not evidence then its of no use. And if the infomant comes form intel then please be even more wary as they are/were in intel ;)

So I guess Im also part of the problem - my site which is full of unsubstantiated disinfo and rubbish is just sitting there - I occasionally update the videos for people but years ago lost heart with the rest of it as it became clear that a huge % of what was done and said was controlled and lies. So now I concentrate on remote viewing instead.
The problem with society today - and I guess this isnt helped by the internet is that people have short attention spans and wnat quick fix answers - they dont want to read all the hundreds of books going back to the 40s - they don't want to read the whole history of ufos - they just want to see the latest youtube video and tale form the new whistle blower on the block.

We have made it soooo easy for 'them' to confuse us :)

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Postby Access Denied » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:52 pm

Wow Daz, surprisingly forthcoming… bravo for the honesty. That really helps me understand where you're coming from.

dazdude wrote:I mean the serpo thing, and anything involving rick doty and the aviary whatever...lol cmon its a big game.

Nail meet head.

That right there is your biggest problem with UFOlogy today in my opinion… and it all started with Stanton Friedman, Bill Moore, Jamie Shandera, Rick Doty et. al. and the Roswell/MJ-12 myth.

“Cosmic Watergate!” :lol:

These idiots more than anything have defined UFOlogy for the past 30 years… now all anyone has to do to get away with selling folks unfounded BS is blame the government for their lack of evidence… and they’ll believe it without question!

Yeah OK, so the dog ate your homework… :roll:

Project Camelot and their endless parade of so-called “whistleblowers” is a perfect example of this mentality.

If you want to know where I’m coming from check out these threads of mine for example...

Where all of those myths came from and why?
http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... .php?t=767

Roswell explained? Potential NEW evidence!
http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... .php?t=772

Take away Roswell/MJ-12 and what are you left with? A poorly understood phenomena that has yet to be fully explained to everybody’s satisfaction… and probably never will be because that involves doing a lot of hard of work… treating each case individually and acknowledging the fact that in the end unexplained doesn’t necessarily equal alien spaceship.
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Postby dazdude » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:53 pm

Take away Roswell/MJ-12 and what are you left with? A poorly understood phenomena that has yet to be fully explained to everybody’s satisfaction


True but there are some very interesting cases cases out there.

My personal fav and one I have allot of first hand evidence on is the 1980 Rendlesham forest case. yes I know the Larry warren statements and some others are a little dubious, but the core evidence is interesting,

the halt audio tape & report
the depressions
tree damage
radiation readings
witness statements

I do believe that in public we have a poorly understood phenomena - but because of the interest by military and intel I do believe that there is more to this going on than they are letting on - but not nessacarily what the whistle blowers are telling us.

I have a huge library of hundreds of pieces of film form the 1940s onwards - and all this just cannot be explained by natural phenomena, missidentifications and military projects. Saying this I cant possible say the proof is fully in for an ET hypothesis either and as I said I have read and looked at everything and on some days im convinced, others I am not - I have to keep an open mind to all possabilities but I do have to say I am swayed by the sheer amount of data I have towards a real phenomenoa.

all the best...

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Postby Chorlton » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:29 am

dazdude wrote:Any ways im not innocent my webby has allot of unsubstantiated crap within in.

So I guess Im also part of the problem - my site which is full of unsubstantiated disinfo and rubbish is just sitting there
daz (owning up here)


Those are the two biggest understatements of the century sir.

There are also an awfull lot of researchers out there that you will never get to meet or who will never introduce themselves to you due, in the most part on the amount of 'totally unsubstantiated crap' and 'unsubstantiated disinfo and rubbish' (Your words not mine) on your site.

You cannot honestly expect anyone doing serious research to ally themselves with a site that says "the home of the grey alien dudes" then goes on to give a description of their brains !! , gives space to Dulce and many other things so ridiculous as to bring tears to the eyes,

There is a group of people (probably several) out there in the UK who are researching phenomena and just go about their business with their research, seeking no publicity, fame or fortune. I was one of those but when I began reading sites like ATS GLP and OM and the credibility which those sites were offering people like Barry King and James Casbolt, to name but 2 of the UK's biggest hoaxers, I felt the need to speak out, alienating myself from several of the group.
In my opinion, 'real' researchers dont shout and make lots of noise, if they find something they simply dont need it. And finding ANYTHING is pretty rare.
I actually put out feelers to Zep about forming such a group. Though I have to admit that the idea was not solely mine.

You speak about Rendlesham and a lot of 'first hand evidence' Did you question someone going by the nom de plume of 'Realyweely'? (no you didnt) He's a close friend of mine and was actually staying with friends in a small village close to the Rendlesham 'incident'. Did you speak to anyone in the villages closely surrounding the entire area like Sudbourne, Butley, Tunstall as we found people there that no one had interviewed, and we also found that some 'researchers' (and I use that word lightly) were only looking for people who HAD seen something or who would say they had seen something, despite several people interviewed by friends who stated they had been on their way home from parties at that time on one of the nights mentioned and saw nothing?
I seriously doubt the entire thing and would suspect it was more like some classified US or UK test flight that had gone wrong and the base commanders report along with others was a smokescreen to cover it up.

So I wouldnt wait up waiting for people to come running to talk to you as you so braveley ask:
OK if you HAVE had covert experience with things not of this world then tell us and we will give you a forum - but in doing so you will be required to submit evidence supporting who you are and your claims - anything less will not get a public forum.

Do you HONESTLY expect anyone to disclose anything to someone who labels their website: "the home of the grey alien dudes"
Oh Please !!!!
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Postby dazdude » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am

offering people like Barry King and James Casbolt, to name but 2 of the UK's biggest hoaxers,

I met Barry king once - once. :)
When he showed me a wackenhut ID in his wallet - I decided not to have anything else to do with the man - including his 'the voice'.

On your other comments chorlton - yawn.
i have explained where i am coming from - i owe YOU nothing not even a reply.

Do you HONESTLY expect anyone to disclose anything to someone who labels their website: "the home of the grey alien dudes"

DID I say anywhere in my comments that I expected them to? - did I say that my site pretty much not changed since 1997 - yes?

LOL attack me all you want - I've stated where my website come from and that it is part of the problem.

LOL as per your comments in another thread - if you freed up your head form that tight place and READ my comments then I could seriously dialogue with you. Instead you read my comments - interpret them into your own thoughts and launch into a tirade of dribble.

In my opinion, 'real' researchers dont shout and make lots of noise, if they find something they simply dont need it. And finding ANYTHING is pretty rare.I actually put out feelers to Zep about forming such a group. Though I have to admit that the idea was not solely mine.


Well don't judge me until you know me. I have been in the past reserached the subject diligently, I have thousands of ufo foia docs - including many requests of my own form the MOD, most of these never published. I have never made lots of noise - or wanted to make money off the subjects, I have intruded onto MOD land and been underground inside some of the Wiltshire military facilities in my quest for knowledge and ll this is documented on video and images - so don't lecture me on how to investigate these things - i have the t-shirt and has seen all this develop for the past 20 years.


On the rendlesham case I said I have alot of first hand evidence - which I do from Brenda Butler one of the first and longest investigators who kindly copied me boxes of her files, notes, sketches and statements form the 1980s.
Have I questioned anyone - yes Col Halt.

I seriously doubt the entire thing and would suspect it was more like some classified US or UK test flight that had gone wrong and the base commanders report along with others was a smokescreen to cover it up.


Well I didn't say that is wasn't this? I was just saying that its a case with enough evidence to show that there was a REAL phenomena with a physical 'thing'.

I'm not after some kind of recognition from you - lol you stated to me you wouldn't even read key evidence in a debate - so we know how good an investigator you are and what you would make. I'm just saying it how I see it - that's all - unlike most I have no agenda - im just a guy searching for my personal truth - i make no apologies - it just is what it is. Have I made mistakes - probably - but don't we all? don't you need to make mistakes to learn from them?

all the best...

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Postby Chorlton » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:46 am

Your attack is quite surprising when mine was simply a response to your statement, and pointing out why Its doubtfull anyone with any integrity is going to contact your site.

Then again why am I not surprised at the misinterpretation of my response coming from the same person who believes Yuri Geller has supernatural powers and who totally misinterpretted what I posted there.

And, as to the last line of your post and your website, its quite obvious you are incapable of learning from your mistakes, if you were, most of the stuff wouldnt be there, then again you wouldnt have any advertisers to pay you or books to sell or your 'ufo and alien merchandise' would you.
Whats the difference between your site and ATS? Nothing. both full of BS and your admitting it doesnt help your cause.

Just a final question

Are you Roy Lake?
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Postby dazdude » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:41 pm

then again you wouldnt have any advertisers to pay you or books to sell or your 'ufo and alien merchandise' would you.


LOL crowdedskies costs £300+ a year to run with the amount of visitors and bandwidth it generates.

This since 1997 has cost me:
£300 x 11 = £3,300 approx.

Advertising sales from the amazon DVDs and recommended books has totaled £37 Approx. over the last 11 years.
Man im going to retire on that money - aren't I doing well?

Crowded skies has always costed more than to run it - i have never mad any profit form this, ufo researched or from the remote viewing research (other than the occasional winning bet). Its not about money - although the actual running costs for running a website would have been nice - but its running at a massive loss.

Then again why am I not surprised at the misinterpretation of my response coming from the same person who believes Yuri Geller has supernatural powers and who totally misinterpretted what I posted there.

Youre misinterpretting - I nvers ated thet URI geller had powers - this is what I mean - you read things and interpret them as something different - go back read it - i said something like 'Uri claims to have made millions form finding oil and gold''. This was never a statement of his skills???

As for misinterpretations - you said:

Nope I haven't read it and neither will I ever. I dont give scamsters the time of day.


I'm not bending anything - i offered you scientific testing and the papers to support this - you refused to even look at them - its not an attack on you its a statement towards the kind of research we could expect from you - which would be very one sided.

Whats the difference between your site and ATS? Nothing. both full of BS and your admitting it doesnt help your cause.


What cause - I have no cause - i stated about my webiste and the fact I know most of its content cannot be substantiated and that this within serious UFO research is wrong - i don't know what else you want - blood!

but there is certainly no cause involved.

all the best...

Daz




Are you Roy Lake?

No I am not - I have known Roy since the early nineties though and did for a while in the mid nineties edit and print his monthly UFO magazine for him. Why?

Daz
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Postby ryguy » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:42 pm

dazdude wrote:Have I made mistakes - probably - but don't we all? don't you need to make mistakes to learn from them?


You can say that again.

I really appreciate the sort of comments you've made about sites/projects like Camelot that do put the unsubstantiated claims out there.

I think Chorlton, in his own way, is questioning why you would keep the other website of yours out there, regardless of the fact that it's been inactive since 1997 - if it contains the same kind of claims and "dinsinfo" that you agree are counterproductive and harmful to the overall cause of valid research?

I would think that if you now recognize the harm that the spreading (intentional or not) disinfo, like Camelot does, is not a good thing - that you would immediately take down your website and replace it with something else?

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Postby dazdude » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:53 pm

I think Chorlton, in his own way, is questioning why you would keep the other website of yours out there, regardless of the fact that it's been inactive since 1997 - if it contains the same kind of claims and "dinsinfo" that you agree are counterproductive and harmful to the overall cause of valid research?

I would think that if you now recognize the harm that the spreading (intentional or not) disinfo, like Camelot does, is not a good thing - that you would immediately take down your website and replace it with something else?


I can understand this - but at this point in time there is not conclusive proof either way what is the real picture here UFO wise. There is alot of conjecture form both viewpoints but I don't think its anywhere near solved or clear on what is and is not 100% disinformation..

Do I think that the site is harming - no not really, anyone seriously interested should read and delve into the subject matter themselves not take if for read when they read sound bites form websites - you have to have a balanced approach. I also feel that allowing people to discuss whatever they want on the forums and to see the latest ufo videos real or hoaxed is also a good resource.

I know the KRIll and DULCE material is dubious - but when I get further inforthat seems valid I do post this (when time allows - but as I said its generally a site for LUFOS now and just sits there). If you follow this link from my site I posted updated details form someone that did seem to check out relating to the DULCE material http://www.crowdedskies.com/dulce_paper ... mation.htm.


I would think that if you now recognize the harm that the spreading (intentional or not) disinfo, like Camelot does, is not a good thing - that you would immediately take down your website and replace it with something else?

Maybe I will - but I would need to see 100% proof that the content/material is wrong/false first and as with all these subjects there is a constant state of stalemate as this most of the time isnt generally possible. At this moment in time its not 100% clear what is and what isnt disinformation.


all the best...

Daz
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:13 pm

dazdude wrote:I can understand this - but at this point in time there is not conclusive proof either way what is the real picture here UFO wise.


So in the absence of proof, you think it is an OK think to blur the lines between truth and fakery...muddy the waters as it were? You talk about RV and you have mentioned "signal to noise ratio" as if you understand, TECHNICALLY, what this means. But if you honestly did, you would know that leaving such information as you have on that website LOWERS the overall signal-to-noise ratio for legitimate researching. I would estimate that, given the amount of SHEER Bull**it that is "out there" on UFOs right now, that the signal-to-noise ratio is well UNDER unity... just as the US Air Force (and other gov agencies with something to hide) would want! :shock:

Maybe I will - but I would need to see 100% proof that the content/material is wrong/false first


Here we go again... it seems we constantly talk about the futile attempts to prove a negative (I was just reminded/corrected of this lately in another forum). So in essence, you want someone to prove a negative for you... THEN you will bring down the information that CLEARLY lowers the signal-to-noise ratio for finding the truth?

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Postby Chorlton » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:54 pm

OK firstly, your Dulce 'update' is very old and couldnt be classed as an update at all, especially when you consider that John Lear has claimed many time that he drew the drawings which you show and also wrote the text. Yes thats the same John Lear who says there is a breathable atmosphere on the moon etc etc etc.


Are you Roy Lake?

dazdude wrote:No I am not - I have known Roy since the early nineties though and did for a while in the mid nineties edit and print his monthly UFO magazine for him. Why?

Daz

Well Im a bit confused you see.
On your website you are simply listed as 'Webmaster' yet on an earlier post here you state:
"I personally own and run a large ufo website that has been online since about 1997 "
And indeed on a Whois look up it is registered to you

Yet on various sites around and about, Roy claims it is HIS website.

Also Whats the connection between Barry King and Roy Lake

And curiously, going back on something you stated earlier. You said Barry King had shown you a Wackenhut ID, yet on OM he denied he worked for Wackenhut and stated it was actually suggested by someone else. This is what he wrote when he was disguising himself as someone else though posting as The Voice;
"Firstly and most importantly, Barry never did say he was working for Wackenhut, that was assumed by others, in the files it does not quote that employer." So thats proven that King is happy to lie to defend his hoaxes. Thanks for that at least.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:18 pm

Chorlton wrote:On your website you are simply listed as 'Webmaster' yet on an earlier post here you state:
"I personally own and run a large ufo website that has been online since about 1997 "
And indeed on a Whois look up it is registered to you

Yet on various sites around and about, Roy claims it is HIS website.


Fascinating.

Can you share a link to any place where Roy claims that the website registered to Daz is his?

Thanks,
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