The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

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The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby 1o6 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:46 pm

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Postby 1o6 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:18 pm

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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:16 am

1of6 wrote:It seems that people really like the extraterrestrial hypothesis. It's exciting, and after decades of exposure to science fiction material we've almost accepted the idea.

Indeed that is the foundation of the psychosocial hypothesis (PSH)… the only theory that has yet to be falsified. If I was a gambling man that’s what I would be betting my money on.

1of6 wrote:Many of the best researchers in the field, such as John Keel and Jacques Vallee, have concluded that the UFO visitors are coming from another dimension or plane of existence that is actually "here", rather than traveling to us from other planets.

Unfortunately there’s no evidence that other dimensions exist (e.g. string/M-brane theory can’t even be used to accurately describe our 3D world yet and the extra dimensions would be so tiny as to be undetectable let alone harbor “higher” life forms) and even if they did, for “something” to exist (i.e. be observable) in our reality, it would have to obey our laws of physics while “it” is here therefore rendering the ultrasterrestrial (or “interdimensional”) hypothesis inherently untestable.

Essentially what Vallee et. al. have done is substitute one scientifically untenable hypothesis (the ETH) with another (the UTH) to explain the lack of evidence for the existence of UFOs as something "other worldly".

That’s pseudoscience.

Of course that doesn’t mean it’s impossible…

1of6 wrote:So isn't it time for the scientifically educated to at least consider this phenomena and to begin exploring the reality of these intelligent beings?

Again? What reality? If say 95% of the phenomena is explainable as psychological (e.g. in the case of “experiencers”), misidentifications, and outright hoaxes, as every previous study has determined, who’s to say that’s not what the other 5% is?

Now that’s not to say other intelligent life doesn’t exist in the Universe… it’s just that currently the possibility lies outside of our knowledge and ability to study it.

1of6 wrote:But there still appears to be tremendous resistance to this idea. Why? Because it's scary?

No, because there’s no evidence. :D

1of6 wrote:I think the resistance primarily comes from being told so many, many times (especially as children) that these beings don't exist, and that modern people don't believe in such things.

I disagree. I think you’d be hard pressed to find anybody today who isn’t at least open to the idea… especially children. ET is everywhere in popular culture… movies, cartoons, commercials… even on Larry King. :D

The “problem” I think (besides the lack of evidence) is best summed up in the wise words of Mr. Abraham Lincoln…

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

The UFOlogy field is littered with hoaxers and charlatans… even if there was a signal amongst all that noise nobody would be able to hear it.

Besides, most people have better things to worry about than whether or not we're being visited… and nothing short of a mass invasion is going to get many folks attention more than what Paris Hilton has been up to lately. :roll:

Now as far SETI goes, the critics may be right, it could very likely turn out not to detect anything but the difference is, like what NASA is doing with space exploration and unlike anything I’ve seen proposed by the ”true believers”, it’s real science. One way or the other it will add to our collective knowledge and suggest the next step…

By the way, that article you linked to is horrible in my opinion. If there was anything to the “suppressed” science and claimed ET contact results it could be duplicated by someone else yet it hasn’t… that should tell you something.


P.S. Welcome back to RU, have you figured out what your Aviary name is yet? :)
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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:43 am

1o6 wrote:It seems that people really like the extraterrestrial hypothesis. It's exciting, and after decades of exposure to science fiction material we've almost accepted the idea. It seems to represent a reasonable extension of how history has progressed thus far: Mankind continually explores new frontiers in the physical world and experiences greater levels of conflict or unity with strange new races or species thereby. Many people love the Star Trek and the Galactic Federation mythologies.

None of which really means anything
The general public is still stuck in the "Jet Age" when it comes to having a scientific approach to UFO's. Many of the best researchers in the field, such as John Keel and Jacques Vallee, have concluded that the UFO visitors are coming from another dimension or plane of existence that is actually "here", rather than traveling to us from other planets..

And many people still say they are mad and that what they are uttering is total unproven unresearched gobbledegook.
There are no 'Visitors', There never have been.
By stating "have concluded that the UFO visitors are coming from " you and they are taking UFO visitors as something that is proven, When there is simply no evidence whatsoever that entities or craft from outside our planet have ever been here. Thats where people like Valee falls into his own trap.
Show me evidence, then I might start to believe you...........Might
There is undoubtedly life on other planets...


'undoubtedly' ??? undoubted by whom? Once again you fail with your idea.
I grow a rare Pak Choi in my polytunnel. Many people would say that anyone could 'undoubtedly' grow it in their Polytunnel, but its a fact...they cant.
There is Zero evidence of any life existing now or in the past on any other planet. Granted it may be discovered in the future, but at present there is not one jot of evidence to back up you alarming statement and assumption.


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There is so much life crammed into every cubic inch of backyard soil that it would be unreasonable to believe that all the potential inherent in billions of galaxies is wasted. ..


What total piffle. You are taking one example, Earth, and applying that criteria to every other planet in existance.
I agree, the odds would favour your point of view. But many years ago the odds lost me a lot of money so I prefer to rely on facts rather than odds.

This egocentric, gotta-have-it-on-my-terms, and see-it-with-my-eyes mindset has been the most damaging impediment to advances in scientific knowledge.
..

And the dumb believers or people with fetid imaginations, thos who would believe without proof, those who create hoaxes or invent scenarios are the biggest impediment to any worthwhile research.
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Doctors violently denied the existence of microbes prior to the invention of the microscope.
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Thats because they had no evidence otherwise. One can only work with empirical evidence. You cant base facts on imagination

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They have had a tremendous historical impact all over the world and continue to shape our beliefs in the modern era through our encounters with UFO's.
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There has been to date............ZERO encounters with Aliens.

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It is becoming quite obvious that intelligent beings exist and interact with us who aren't perceptible to us in the usual circumstances.
..


"Quite obvious" ??? To whom. It isnt obvious to me at all because all I see are fuzzy pictures, hoaxes, retards with warped imaginations who simply dont understand what they are seeing.
I repeat. There has been ZERO evidence presented that there has been any contact with any entity or craft from anywhere outside of the earth.
Or are you trying to say that these advanced beings, able to construct craft capable of faster than light travel, able to detect life on our planet and capable of travelling here, are so unable to contact us?.
Please!

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But there still appears to be tremendous resistance to this idea. Why? Because it's scary?
..

NO because theres no evidence. You might like to live your life believing in fairytales but others require a little bit more concrete evidence.
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We are far less likely to discover life on other planets when we insist that it must be the same as our life, and apparent to our five senses. When intelligent beings exist on our own planet which are normally invisible to us, we should realize that invisible life forms could also inhabit the other planets...

Imagination is a wonderfull thing isnt it?.

Oh look, Dr Who is on the box.
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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:11 am

Access Denied wrote:If say 95% of the phenomena is explainable as psychological (e.g. in the case of “experiencers”), misidentifications, and outright hoaxes, as every previous study has determined, who’s to say that’s not what the other 5% is?


Who's to say that’s not what the other 5% is?

Well, for starters it is the "every previous study" that say's the ~5% is disinct, seperate, and not related to the ~95% of reports. That doesn't mean anything goofy like "Aliens are visiting Earth" it just means that the ~5% can not be explained in the same way that the ~95% is explained.

Of course you have to remember AD that when we start talking about these percentages we are not talking about "experiencers" (Abductee's, Contactee's, or other people who think they've seen Aliens), we are talking about reports of 'objects' observed in the atmosphere and the percentage of those that simply can not be lumped into the ~95% that is considered explainable.
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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby Jack'sDead » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:52 am

I would venture a guess that the "unexplainable" sightings constitute a much larger percentage than a mere 5%. Now that isn't to say either that all unexplained cases are certainly unknown intelligent life, but I think it would be foolish to discount the large number of cases reported by trained observers. To say nothing of course, of the large number of witnesses who have had a higher level of interaction. I don't think that all of those reports can be discounted out of hand either. I am particularly impressed with the former military personnel who have come forward over the years, such as those who came forward recently to speak about the effects the phenomenon has had on our nuclear weapon systems.

Of course France was the most recent to reveal their huge archive of documents regarding unexplained aerial phenomenon, but they weren't the first. Not only other countries, but even our own CIA have released reams of documents over the years, showing that there is indeed an as yet unexplained phenomenon occurring. This cannot all be explained away as some sort of socio-psychological phenomenon.

So that leaves us specualting as to the nature of the phenomenon. Something is out there, that seems to defy all that we have learned so far as a species. So what could it be? I am open to several possibilities, which may all be true in the long run. Interdimensional beings, beings from distant stars, beings from other worlds in our own solar system, and even an advanced race or races that have existed right here on Earth along side man all along.

As far as physical evidence goes, there has been some put forth, but of course the battle will rage on as to their authenticity and interpretation. But that evidence cannot be discounted either. Everything from artifacts from the objects themselves, to evidence of physcial interaction with our environment. And then there are the implants which seem to straddle those two categories.

No, in my mind it is a safe bet to say that there is "something" out there. It would be rather egocentric of us to think that we are indeed all alone in the universe. Compound that with the preponderance of evidence available that shows there is indeed an intense and legitimate phenomenon occuring here on Earth, and the question turns from "if" they are out there to "what" is actually out there.

I would not be surprised to learn that there were not indegenous species from right here on Earth that have evoloved outside of the memory of mankind, and live here today, just out of common sight. Perhaps the Reptilians really do exist. Is it really so hard to imagine that a race of creatures did survive the age of the dinosaur, and have carried on to this day, perhaps underground? Especially when one considers the high degree of intelligence now known to exist in certain species of dinosaur. And what about mankind oursleves? Who is to say that the theories of ancient and lost civilzations are not true? Perhaps there is a select group of human who have survived to advance their technology, while our true history has been lost to the relatively short-term memory of common society, being more focused on immediate needs and concerns.

I'm not going to bother trying to wrap my brain around interdimensional possibilities.

Then there is the possibility of visitors from other worlds, who have arrived here in a more linear fashion. Given the number of worlds out there, I would say that there is certainly intelligent life beyond our own. But could they get here? And even if they had the means, would they actually be "lucky" enough to stumble across us in the vastness of space? I expect that the universe is probably teeming with life. And from that, it is probably more surprising that we haven't bumped into eachother more often, and in more pronounced fashion.
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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby Chorlton » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:24 am

The simple fact is, 'we' just dont understand a lot of what is taken as 'Natural phenomena'.
The effects of Volcano's have yet to be completely understood and thats just one teeny phenomena.

But to start saying that causes of things we dont understand are the effects of "Interdimensional beings, beings from distant stars, beings from other worlds in our own solar system, and even an advanced race or races that have existed right here on Earth along side man all along ", is to me, outrageous. There simply is ZERO evidence for any of those idea's
To start expounding on possibilities which are simpy fairytales is the thin end of the wedge into insanity, I mean you might as well blame it on the electro pneumatic actions of pouring cold milk on your Coco Pops, because that idea holds as much weight as any possibility of 'Interdimensional beings'.

We first need to fully understand the forces of this good old earth before we start moving into LaLa land ideas.
A simple example. In the UK its Summer, yet its chucking down with rain ( and despite what some people say it isnt normal) Then on a fishing forum the other day someone mentioned that the tides had been rather weird over the last few days, that was then mirrorred by quite a few others. It was also mentioned that catches of fish (by rod) had dropped off quite severely in certain regions. Coincidence ? HMMMMMMMMMM
But the point is we understand little of what goes on below the surface of the earth and the actions and reactions of the crust above the mantle.
One of the big problems I see with the world now is because science cant come up with a rational explanation for something, the woo woo's move in with their weird ideas, and work on the basis of 'if you say something lots of time people will begin to believe it' and thats whats happening. People are now more than willing to believe the ridiculous without looking or asking for one jot of evidence.

Now, one of my favourite subjects, you mentioned. Implants. As yet in over 40 years of looking, I have yet to find anyone with an implant that cant be explained (other than Jordan :twisted: (UK Joke) ) and many who say they have an implant. simply cant or wont prove it. We have two Hoaxers here in the UK who say they have 'Implants' Barry King and James Casbolt. 2 fools who have been outed several times as Hoaxers.
So please show me someone who has an 'implant' where there is 100% proof that it wasnt put there by a human.

Imagination is a wonderfull thing. But to begin to use imagination as reasoning for something which, at the moment cant be understood is folly.
They used to drown witches and mad people because they didnt understand why they did things and, IMHO putting nonsensical ideas forwards in an attempt to explain something is going in the same direction.
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Postby 1o6 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:18 pm

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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:52 pm

1o6 wrote:The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.


haha...so true... :)
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Re: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis

Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:07 pm

One of the big problems I see with the world now is because science cant come up with a rational explanation for something, the woo woo's move in with their weird ideas, and work on the basis of 'if you say something lots of time people will begin to believe it' and thats whats happening. People are now more than willing to believe the ridiculous without looking or asking for one jot of evidence.


This is one of the most well-written comments I've seen that really lays out the problem with this field, especially for anyone who wants to examine the various phenomenon (alien "visitations", ghosts/hauntings, etc...) One thing that concerns me about many of the examples of phenomenon, be it an "alien visitation" or a ghost haunting, is that common experiences do not mean that what people are interpreting from what their senses is what's truly happening. There are also common elements when people experience induced hallucinations by taking drugs such as LSD or other hallucinagenics. Some psychologists call those archetypes - but it also implies that when we find ourselves in such a situation/location, the last thing you want to do is to trust is your own senses.

Anyway - great post.

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