The Invasion from Outer Space

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby Zep Tepi » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:46 pm

Should an alien civilization ever feel the need to invade earth, I don't think we would ever know anything about it. One day we would all wake up and get on with life as normal, the next day we wouldnt ever wake up again. I really think it would be as simple as that. The aliens would not even need to set foot on Earth, what would be the point? If they are so advanced that they could travel the vast distances required in order to get here, I'm pretty sure they would also be advanced enough to wipe out human existence pretty easily too. There's no limit to the number of ways they could wipe us out, but I don't think the Independence Day scenario would be one of them. Not very efficient, was it?

In summary, let's hope no one wants to invade anytime soon!

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby Access Denied » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:37 am

the|exx wrote:Nicely written AD!

Thank you but alas I did not write it. :)

For those who may have missed it, here’s the story in the New Yorker I linked to in the OP that calls into question our expectations and assumptions for what a real alien invasion might be like…

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/featur ... millhauser

By the way…

Zep Tepi wrote:Sorry to be off-topic and all that, but can I just say... NICE avatar - Wow!

Yeah, I noticed that too… not sure how I feel about Lexx having a better RU avatar then the rest of us. :)

the|exx wrote:I'm not sure we would know what was expected of us unless we're all pre-programmed by the 'visitors'.

In which case no sense in worrying about it right? Like lambs to the slaughter…

the|exx wrote:It's not the aliens I'm scared of. It's humans!

Ha ha…

"A person is smart, people are stupid." - Agent K

Mungodave wrote:Pandemonium.

No doubt… I think even the “peaceful” (mindless) invasion scenario in that story is too optimistic.

Mungodave wrote:my avatar seems somewhat apt in this discussion

You’d think that poor little guy would have figured it out or collapsed from sheer exhaustion by now…

Zep Tepi wrote:In summary, let's hope no one wants to invade anytime soon!

I believe the odds are we probably already would have been invaded if such a thing were possible… and if such a thing were possible that means we’re probably not unique which means we’re probably not valuable either.

On the other hand, I could be wrong and the sooner Planet Earth goes into stealth mode the better unless…

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby longhaircowboy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:35 pm

Why does everyone opt for the vicious conqueror type invasion? Does noone think there might be some friendly folks elsewhere in the universe?
Just to note: I'm fond of the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"
What if they came to help us ala "The day the Earth Stood Still"? Myself I'm hoping if some foreign entity does manage to show here that they will come in brotherly love. Come on lets all sing Kumbaya.

edit out kind my bad
Last edited by longhaircowboy on Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:33 pm

longhaircowboy wrote:Why does everyone opt for the vicious conqueror type invasion? (snip)
Come on lets all sing Kumbaya.


Two words: Europe and MesoAmerica. See how far Kumbaya got the MesoAmericans? History clearly teaches us that a weaker power should always be suspicious of a technologically superior "visitor" to their homelands. In the interest of security (and perhaps this is just my training in military aviation systems), one must always consider that anyone who arrives bearing "gifts" wants something, and they are not always going to freely tell you what that something is.

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby the|exx » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:44 am

longhaircowboy wrote:Myself I'm hoping if some foreign entity does manage to show here that they will come in brotherly love.


They'll probably show up in San Francisco then! I wonder if that means there wont be any hot alien babes :?

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby Access Denied » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:35 am

Found written on a Zeta Reticuli bathroom wall…

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby longhaircowboy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:17 pm

Yeah Ray I get that about "bearing gifts". But at some point that may just turn out well rather than badly. Say for instance a society on some future world had developed the ability to traverse the cosmos while at the same time maintaining a non threatening lifestyle. Let's go further and assume they had never noticed that their technology could be used destructively. Instead of guns they made butter. Would these folk be inclined to enslave the peoples of another planet? Say a word similar to 'kill' didn't exist in their langauge. Would they be inclined to wipe out other peoples?
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:39 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Two words: Europe and MesoAmerica. See how far Kumbaya got the MesoAmericans? History clearly teaches us that a weaker power should always be suspicious of a technologically superior "visitor" to their homelands.


I agree with LHC in that this kind of argument you're making Ray (Not to pick on you personally) is old and tired and if I say so myself an intellectually numb "Alien Invasion" argument. It's also much too Homo-centric.

For one thing 'technology' had little to do with what happened in Mesoamerica/America and gets seriously over-played IMO. If anything 'Conquered' the America's it was 'Small Pox' and "Fear" not advanced European technology.

Then,... On the other (Homo-centric) hand, why would "Aliens" be expected to act like 'Cortes' or even 'Pizarro', or 'Hitler'? I dare to venture that most people citing the Conquest of the America's in such a context do not even know in general what took place!

Even before then, were the "Mexica" Aztec not the foreign Conquerors of Western Mesoamerica 200 years or so before the Spanish? That can't be explained by the use of Horses or by the advanced use of metals.

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby longhaircowboy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:45 pm

L_s the homo-centric view of the cosmos is difficult to get around as it seems to be hard wired in we humans. For years now I've been railing against this view and proposing that we think outside of the normal paradigm. Cause I think that when and if we finally meet up with some alien life form we will not be prepared. If we go on thinking of them as being like some creepy crawly from a saturday sci-fi show and coming here to suck our life juices we won't even know when we do find them. Heck maybe they would be from a waterworld and be fish-like and pose no threat whatsoever. Of course a fish-like species would have some kinda problems gettin here but who knows maybe we find them.
Just because we destroy our own is no reason to believe every life form does.
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby ryguy » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:07 pm

I don't know if anyone has ever read the Andromeda Strain, but personally I think it offers the most likely scenerio of "first contact." A bacterial/viral organism that somehow gets attached to one of our probes/manned missions (in the future, obviously) exploring another planet, or even an object carrying those microbes landing on earth and infecting wildlife and then subsequently humans.

The fact that such little organisms far outnumber complex multi-cellular organisms on a magnitude of...what...billions...makes me thing that just on a mathematical scale, our odds of coming in contact with such an "alien" is the strongest possibility of all. Scientists believe many of the moons that exist within our own galaxy have environments that could accomodate such "alien" life...

And I have to say, we're pretty susceptible to such an "invasion," particularly if we have no defenses available on a microbial scale to fight the onslaught. Who knows how such an alien organism could affect humanity....

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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby Gary » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:45 am

I basically agree with Ryan re: the scale issue. Even more interesting possibilities exist when one considers "Swarming Behaviors" of these nano-scale little green bug-eyed "bugs."

Michio Kaku also has proposed a similar idea:

"Calculations show that these gigantic machines [wormholes] must be the size of star systems. Unfortunately, other calculations show that the wormhole might only be microscopic in size. If so, an advanced civilisation might resort to shooting molecular-sized robots, called "nanobots", through the wormhole. These could carry the entire genetic database of the human race. Once on the other side, these nanobots would then create huge DNA factories to grow clones of their creators. Although the physical bodies of these individuals will have died, their genetic twins will live on." --

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandte ... verse.html
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby lost_shaman » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:49 am

Despite my anti-Homo-centric "invasion" opinion on this thread...

What's even more interesting in my opinion is that dying Stars actually create the same building blocks of "life" that we find here on Earth! Signatures of these molecules are prevalent throughout the Universe (including such complex molecules as Chlorophyll). Ergo, it's likely that "life" similar to that of Earth would likely be prevalent throughout the Universe.
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby longhaircowboy » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:30 pm

Yeah I'm inclined to go with the bacterial idea as it's known that the more simpler life forms would be more prevalent. Looking for multicelled life is the longshot. Heck look at all the hubbub that was created when they claimed the Mars rock had micro life in it.
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby longhaircowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:36 pm

Here's a little something I thought l_s might be interested in.
But a Type III civilization would likely not be inclined to visit us or conquer us,
as in the movie Independence Day, where such a civilization spreads like a plague of locusts,
swarming around planets to suck their resources dry. In reality, there are countless dead
planets in outer space with vast mineral wealth they could harvest without the nuisance of
coping with a restive native population. Their attitude toward us might resemble our own
attitude toward an ant hill. Our inclination is not to bend down and offer the ants beads
and trinkets, but simply to ignore them.

Thats from Michio Kakus Physics of the Impossible(2008) in the chapter titled Extraterretrials and UFOS(p. 147).

Theres a similar concept proposed at the beginning of chapter 6 Alien Attack in the book
Death From the Skies(2008) by Philip Plait. He envisions a swarm of robotic arachnids that
are able to strip any object in space of its resources(humans included). He doesn't say if this would be a Type III civilization but I presume it would be from what he infers.
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Re: The Invasion from Outer Space

Postby Access Denied » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:52 am

Cool stuff people… thank you all for sharing your thoughts!

Can’t argue with the Andromeda Strain (one of my all-time favorites too Ryan) except possibly the “happy” ending.

Finally saw the remake of The Day the Earth Stood Still last week… my wife got mad at me because as usual I couldn’t help pointing out the insultingly stupid movie physics and ruined it for her…

Gary wrote:Michio Kaku also has proposed a similar idea:

"Calculations show that these gigantic machines [wormholes] must be the size of star systems. Unfortunately, other calculations show that the wormhole might only be microscopic in size. If so, an advanced civilisation might resort to shooting molecular-sized robots, called "nanobots", through the wormhole. These could carry the entire genetic database of the human race. Once on the other side, these nanobots would then create huge DNA factories to grow clones of their creators. Although the physical bodies of these individuals will have died, their genetic twins will live on."

LOL… Kaku really needs to give up on the wormhole idea and perhaps invest some of the money he’s made appearing in UFO shows promoting pseudoscience in a better calculator too. To listen to him you’d think all you need to do is fold the Universe over like a piece of paper and punch a hole through it… no problem for any suitably advanced civilization right?

Let’s stop and think about the practical aspects of this for a moment…

Assuming any of this is even possible and ignoring for the moment the (literally) astronomical amounts of (negative) energy required to create and hold one open… you'd still have to move the other end to the desired destination before you can traverse it. This of course would have to be done at sub-light speed because we haven’t established a means of FTL travel yet until we create the wormhole so why bother? You’re already there!

Duh.

If you wanted to populate the universe it would be far easier to just build a nanobot railgun… hell you don’t even have to aim it. Just keep shooting those little puppies off in all directions and you’re bound to hit a suitable planet eventually…

Of course that just takes us right back to the Fermi Paradox… if it could be done odds are it already would have.

Unless…

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