Buzz Aldrin UFO

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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:42 am

longhaircowboy wrote:Ah but here's the real rub. In their recorded transmission they asked for the distance to the S-IVB not SLA panels.
Also note they were observing in a vacuum and not in an atmosphere(this would have an effect on perspective).


Yes, and now you've hit on a major issue. That is people just assume that the larger S-IVB would be invisible @ 6,000 miles dispite observing in a vacuum and not in an atmosphere while people assume a much smaller SLA panel would be visible dispite not knowing anything about where an SLA panel might be.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby longhaircowboy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:42 am

I'm no optical scientist but at 6,000 nautical miles the S-IVB should be clearly visible to the astronauts. Thats why they asked for its position. I still contend they saw no UFO. Whether they saw the SLA panels or the S-IVB is moot.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby Access Denied » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:12 pm

Well, from the book First Man: The Life of Neil A. Armstrong by James Hansen it says on pp. 430-432…

[emphasis mine]

Less significantly from the point of view of science, but of import for those who want to believe in UFOs, was a second "sighting" that the crew could not explain-or at least be 100 percent sure of their explanation.

It took place the evening of the third day-the day of the first sojourn into the LM-shortly after 9:00 P.M. Aldrin apparently saw it first: "I found myself idly staring out of the window of the Columbia and saw something that looked a bit unusual. It appeared brighter than any star and not quite the pinpoint of light that stars are. It was also moving relative to the stars. I pointed this out to Mike and Neil, and the three of us were beset with curiosity. With the help of the monocular we guessed that whatever it was, it was only a hundred miles or so away. Looking at it through the sextant we found it occasionally formed a cylinder, but when the sextant's focus was adjusted it had a sort of illuminated 'L' look to it. There was a straight line, maybe a little bump in it, and then a little something off to the side. It had a shape of some sort-we all agreed on that-but exactly what it was we couldn't pin down."

The crew fretted, "What are we going to say about this?" Aldrin remembers, "We sure as hell were not going to talk about it to the ground, because all that would do is raise a curiosity and if that got out, someone might say NASA needed to be commanded to abandon the mission, because we had aliens going along! Our reticence to be outspoken while it was happening was because we were just prudent. We didn't want to do anything that gave the UFO nuts any ammunition at all, because enough wild things had been said over the years about astronauts seeing strange things."

At first the crew speculated that what they were seeing was them shell of the Saturn S-IVB that had been slingshot away more than two days earlier. After the S-IVB's propulsive maneuver, the astronauts had seen it traveling well out of their way, on a trajectory that would miss the Moon and send it into solar orbit. (On later Apollo missions, NASA intentionally maneuvered the S-IVB to impact the Moon for the purpose of taking seismographic readings, but it did not do that on Apollo 11.) So, at two days, twelve hours, forty-five minutes, and forty-six seconds of elapsed time into the flight, Neil radioed, "Houston, Apollo 11. Do you have any idea where the S-IVB is with respect to us?" The answer came back some three minutes later: "Apollo 11, Houston. The S-IVB is about 6,000 nautical miles away from you. Over." "Okay. Thank you," replied Neil.

The astronauts scratched their heads. At far closer than 6,000 miles, the object in sight could not be the S-IVB, but rather one of the four panels that had enclosed the LM's launch garage. When the LM was extracted for face-to-face mating with the command module, the side panels had sprung off in different directions. Analytical studies had indicated the most likely trajectories for the four ejected panels, but NASA could not track the panels because there were no transponders on them.

The Apollo 11 crew was convinced that what they saw was one of the panels. According to Aldrin, "We could see it for about forty-five seconds at a time as the ship rotated, and we watched it off and on for about an hour.... Its course appeared in no way to conflict with ours, and as it presented no danger we dropped the matter there," and went to sleep. Nothing more was said about the sighting until one portion of NASA's classified debriefing. Armstrong is confident that no one in NASA suggested what they should or should not say in the future about the UFO. What was to be said was left to the individual crew member.

In Armstrong's mind today, there is still no doubt that what they all saw was a detached part of their own spacecraft. "We did watch a slow blinking light some substantial distance away from us. Mission Control eventually concluded-and I agree-that it was one of the Saturn LM adapter panels. These panels were enormous and would have been given a rotation in the process of their ejection from the S-IVB. The reflection from these panels would, therefore, be similar to blinking. I do not know why we did not see the other three panels, but I suspect that the one that was directly down from the Sun from us would have provided the brightest reflection."

How the panel had kept up with the Apollo 11 spacecraft for over two days-and in fact, was out in front of it-was a simple matter of Newtonian physics. "When the SLA panels were ejected," Neil explains, "they had a very slight outward relative velocity, but their velocity along the flight path was essentially identical to that of the CSM-LM combination. The panels, therefore, having no atmospheric drag to slow them, traveled at the CSM-LM speed, but developed an ever-increasing lateral separation from it." [this however neglects to include the additional separation due to the “CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB” and the “Midcourse correction” –AD] As for why the S-IVB was so far behind [ahead of –AD] the spacecraft, that was explained by the fact that the S-IVB was traveling along the same velocity vector but after separation was traveling slightly slower [faster –AD] than the CSM-LM. Over a couple of days' time, a sizable distance developed between the two.

No matter the thoroughness of the scientific explanation, however, the fact of the matter is that Apollo 11 did see what technically has to be called an unidentified flying object. "When somebody asks, 'Did you see a UFO?' Aldrin admits, "technically we should say we did. But given all the misstatements that would come forth from that, I'll only tell the story if I'm given enough time. I'll tell a complete story to somebody with the idea that, once they understand the whole story, they won't make a big thing of it. I'll try to manage the information in the right way. But immediately after Apollo 11 we all thought it was so, 'No, no, no.' "

So there you have it…

They didn’t rule out the S-IVB because they thought it was too far away to be seen, they ruled it out because the object they saw appeared to be much closer. They guessed it was “only a hundred miles or so away” (too far to be a small piece of debris) but it was probably more on the order of a thousand miles or so… in which case it would have appeared approximately the same size as the S-IVB.

[Note however my inserted corrections to Armstrong’s quote and Hansen’s text and the fact that the reason why the S-IVB was so much further away from the CSM/LM than the SLA panels was the S-IVB performed an additional “S-IVB lunar slingshot maneuver” after separation, wasn’t discussed. See the Apollo 11 Timeline for more info]

This evidence, together with their description that fits what one would expect when viewing a SLA panel tumbling in the Sun, pretty much seals the deal in my opinion… and more importantly, in that of all the principals involved.

[edit to add]

So, to answer the OP…

longhaircowboy wrote:Is this a hoax perpetrated by the media to keep people watching the shows?
Or is this a cover up by the astronuats?

I’d have to say Buzz ought to stop calling it a UFO before he explains it… it tends to give impressionable folks the wrong idea (alien spaceship) and the media that caters to them an opportunity to spin it into something more sensational than it was.

I suspect however Buzz knows this and is doing it for the publicity…
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:02 am

Access Denied wrote:They didn’t rule out the S-IVB because they thought it was too far away to be seen, they ruled it out because the object they saw appeared to be much closer. They guessed it was “only a hundred miles or so away” (too far to be a small piece of debris) but it was probably more on the order of a thousand miles or so… in which case it would have appeared approximately the same size as the S-IVB.



You beat me to the punch, I was going to quote the same account. But... Yes, if only it was a simple matter of assuming they just got the estimate of distance wrong and everything else fit an SLA panel then writing that off would be easy and prudent but that's not the case I don't think.

One, if not the most important, aspects of this observation is the crews description of the objects size. Both Armstrong and Aldrin explained the it was right near the resolution limit of the human eye so that it was not a point source but they just couldn't quite make out it's shape with the naked eye. This is important because we know the dimensions of an SLA panel (or S-IVB) and thus can calculate its rough distance based on different given observations of its angular size. Here the limit of resolution of the human eye is a great reference in that it is very easy to observe and is generally understood to be ~60 arc seconds or greater and given that Venus makes a great and familiar reference. So an SLA panel is around 21 ft in length it would aproach this resolution limit at a distance of around 13 to 14 miles (around 38 miles for the S-IVB). Any further distances and an SLA panel or S-IVB could not appear as anything but a point source which for both objects is in direct conflict with the specific observation that the crew made.

The conclusion must be that the crews observation must be incorrect if the observation was of an SLA panel or S-IVB! Otherwise these two objects really don't fit with the observation.
Last edited by lost_shaman on Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby longhaircowboy » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:42 am

Lets not bury this bone yet.
The authenticity of the Apollo 11 sightings has been vouched for by testimony attributed to CBS TV news anchorman Walter Cronkite. In an interview with the National Enquirer, conducted by reporter Robin Leach, Cronkite gives this account: "En route for the world's first moon landing, Armstrong and the crew transmitted some earthshaking information, and I was there to hear it for myself."

Cronkite continued: "Armstrong claimed to have spotted a huge cylindrical object which was rotating or tumbling between the ship and the moon. It's officially recorded in the NASA record vaults that Armstrong indicated he went to take photographs but the object vanished as quickly as he'd first seen it. Neil Armstrong is not a man given to fanciful imagination and it wasn't just one of the crew that saw it -- they all did, and you have to respect those men."
And lets not forget they asked for the distance to the S-IVB not the panels.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:37 am

longhaircowboy wrote:The authenticity of the Apollo 11 sightings has been vouched for by testimony attributed to CBS TV news anchorman Walter Cronkite.


Almost anything except the observation we are discussing here is going to be a Hoax or just plain false.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby Access Denied » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:55 am

lost_shaman wrote:The conclusion must be that the crews observation must be incorrect if the observation was of an SLA panel or S-IVB! Otherwise these two objects really don't fit with the observation.

Yes, for that particular aspect of the observation I would agree… however there remain a number of other aspects of the observation that do fit. This is a good example of why eyewitness testimony (even from presumed “trained observers” like pilots) is so notoriously unreliable.

The key here I think is the reported relative magnitude… “brighter than any star”. It is well known that bright objects are perceived to be larger than they really are… especially against a dark background. Ever seen an aircraft landing light from a distance?

Human perception is bizarre and in some cases unexplained…

The Moon Illusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_illusion

I can only imagine how different things must look in space.

longhaircowboy wrote:Lets not bury this bone yet.

Round and round we go…

longhaircowboy wrote:National Enquirer

That should have been the first clue…

The Apollo-11 UFO Incidents by James Oberg
http://www.debunker.com/texts/apollo11.html

Let me guess… you got that quote from The Roswell Incident? :wink:
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby longhaircowboy » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:09 am

Access Denied wrote:
Let me guess… you got that quote from The Roswell Incident?

While that is possible it isn't the truth. It's clear the Apollo 11 astronauts had no clue what they saw. They assumed it was the S-IVB(Cylandrical and tumbling) and asked for the coordinates .At 6,00 nautical miles it fits. I have a signed copy of that book. Wanna talk about it?
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby Access Denied » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:11 am

longhaircowboy wrote:While that is possible it isn't the truth.

I was just kidding of course but I think you knew you that.

For those that may not have read Jim's article...

The entire Cronkite interview in the National Enquirer was a fake, evidently assembled by a free lance writer. The newspaper refused to take the blame when Cronkite complained--but fired the writer.

But the writer of “I Was Raped by Bigfoot!” gets to stay?

[scratches head]

longhaircowboy wrote:I have a signed copy of that book. Wanna talk about it?

Well, signed (by which one?) copy or not, I do think it’s relevant to the question you asked in your OP…

Wherever there is widespread popular interest in a topic, you will find the vultures swooping in to prey on eager gullibiles and their willingness to spend money on books which boast new, lurid revelations. So it shouldn't have been much of a surprise that Charles Berlitz (author of several highly profitable ''Bermuda Triangle" books) should have decided to "discover" the Apollo 11 UFO encounters in 1980. This was revealed in his latest book, The Roswell Incident (all the actual research seems to have been done by his co-author William Moore and by UFO advocate and former nuclear engineer Stanton Friedman), whose main theme is that the US government captured a crashed flying saucer in mid-1947, along with the dead bodies of the beings who had made up its crew, and has successfully stashed it all away since then while studying the materials.

Berlitz has nothing new to offer besides further garbling of the same old fairy tales. He bases his information on Maurice Chatelain ("based on information picked up from 'inside sources' while working for NASA in the 1960s") about "reports of these encounters made during flights in space (which) have generally been censored, altered, de-emphasized, or simply ignored by NASA." Here's the ol' Apollo 11 story a la Berlitz, 1980:

"Prior to the first moon landing two UFOs and a long cylinder hovered overhead. When Apollo 11 landed inside a moon crater two unidentified spacecrafts (sic!) appeared on the crater rim and then took off again. Aldrin photographed them. Pictures have not yet been released by NASA to the public."

Mr. Berlitz's next pages reprint much of the long-discredited Pepper transcript, as well as a series of other astronaut-UFO fables. Moore later denied any endorsement of the stories merely because he put them in the book (he wanted to "set the stage" and keep an open mind), but Friedman denounced the story in 1981 and justified his cooperation with Berlitz because he needed the money and publicity in order to advance his research.

I’d say that qualifies as a hoax propagated by the media wouldn’t you?
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby lost_shaman » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:18 am

Access Denied wrote:The key here I think is the reported relative magnitude… “brighter than any star”. It is well known that bright objects are perceived to be larger than they really are… especially against a dark background. Ever seen an aircraft landing light from a distance?


That effect is true when observing different color objects of equal size at a distance framed by contrasting backgrounds or borders. For instance two paper squares of equal size one white against a black background and the other black against a white background at a distance and observed from a distance the white square would appear 1/5th larger than the black square.

This effect demonstrated by the above experiment is in part explained by indirect stimulation of the eyes receptors that border those recieving direct stimulation, or rather it appears as the edges of the white border slightly encroach on the black square and the edges of the white square slightly encroach on the black border creating the effect. You can also notice a similar type of effect by holding a ruler or straight edge in front of a candle from across the room and the straight edge will appear to have a dimple where in-fact there obviously is not one. This effect has no effect on the resolution limit of the eye. For example Venus at twilight while the sky is still light appears just below the resolution limit of the eye (~60 arc seconds) and also later when the sky darkens by many magnitudes Venus still appears just below the resolution limit of the eye (~60 arc seconds).

Therefore, an SLA panel at a thousand miles being less than one arcsecond could not appear to be just above the resolution limit of the eye as the crew described.
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Re: Buzz Aldrin UFO

Postby longhaircowboy » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:26 am

While I don't know where you got the above quote about Apollo 11 ala Berlitz I do know that 11 didn't land in a crater.
Apollo 11 Landing Site

Mare Tranquillitatis (Sea of Tranquility)
00.67408 °N latitude, 23.47297 °E longitude

For the first lunar landing, Mare Tranquilitatis was the site chosen because it is a relatively smooth and level area. It does, however, have a high density of craters and in the last seconds before landing, the LM had to be manually piloted by Neil Armstrong to avoid a sharp-rimmed ray crater measuring some 180 meters across and 30 meters deep own as West. The LM landed safely some 6 km from the originally intended landing site.

Thats why they called it Tranquility base. Pretty much kills that story.
And yes it does appear to be a media orchestrated hoaxery.
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