"Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby Access Denied » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:28 am

You’re right but it’s not [sic] “verbatum”. In case you missed it, they changed the first sentence and moved it from the beginning of Chapter 1 to the Appendix at the end and added this disclaimer…

“This Appendix is provided for informational purposes only. It does not establish any policy, or confer any entitlement or benefits concerning CAP. In the event of a conflict between the information contained in this Appendix and other governing documents, including statutes, those documents will take precedence over this Appendix”
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:02 am

astrophotographer wrote:
lost_shaman wrote: Not true at all. The answer is simple the Wiki reference just failed to mention that the 428th AAF BU was renamed 428th AF BU after the creation of the USAF. It was not an Army unit operating out of Kirtland it was an USAF unit.

The first link indicates the name changed between 1946 and 1976. The second link is a memo from February 1948. They don't show when the unit changed to an AF unit.


Ah but here's the rub... You stated that...
astrophotographer wrote:According to Wikipedia, the unit in charge of Kirtland Air field was the 428th AAF Base Unit until March 10, 1949.


For one thing according to Tom, you must be "intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive" by his standards he is using to judge me because you didn't provide a link(*) and you "failed to share important information that damages your claim with (RU) readership". Even by your own Wiki reference the 428th only operated from '46 to '49 not until '76.

* Note the double standard.

astrophotographer wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:
There is no guessing to it as an officer falling under the command of the Commanding General, AAF, Major Phillips like all other officers was transferred over to the USAF by transfer order No. 1 signed by SECDEF Forestall on Sept. 26, 1947.

I have my doubts concerning this. I was inquiring if you had his records. I guess not.


As I've shown as an officer in the AAF under the Command or Control of the Commanding General, AAF, he along with property, installations, officers, and enlisted men were transferred over to the Chief of Staff, USAF or Department of the USAF via the signing of transfer order no.1 signed by SECDEF Forestall on Sept. 26, 1947.

If you have doubts then can you show otherwise?



astrophotographer wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Again see above. This unit was transferred along with most other units by transfer order no. 1. Saying the transfer of such units did not occur until after November 1947 is just wrong. I've also provided a link to a primary source document above where members of this unit were listed as USAF before 1949. That proves your interpretation of the Wiki reference is flawed.

Your sources are not clear when this name change occurred. Also, my point is why did it take so long to change the names of the bases? They all seem to have changed their names from Army Air Field to USAFB in January 1948.


To be fair the source you quoted didn't even mention that the name change occurred.

Also, it may have taken a couple of months for the new Air Force to realize that from a PR point of view "Air Force Air Field" simply wouldn't cut it and these Air Fields needed to be call "Bases".
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby Access Denied » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:06 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Air_Force_Base

"From 1941 to 1948, the facility was known as Roswell Army Air Field"
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:01 am

Access Denied wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Air_Force_Base

"From 1941 to 1948, the facility was known as Roswell Army Air Field"


So by your logic if I quote this below...


Before that, "Peterson Field," as the base was commonly called, was assigned to the 3rd Air Force, headquartered at MacDill Field, Tampa, Fla. After October 1943, control of Peterson Field then reverted to the 2nd Air Force, headquartered in downtown Colorado Springs. In April 1944, the 383rd Bomb Group was inactivated and the training operation was redesignated the 214th Combat Crew Training School. In June 1944 the mission at the base once again changed, this time to fighter pilot training. The 268th Army Air Forces Base Unit, assigned to the base, employed P-40N Warhawks to carry out this mission under the control of the 72nd Fighter Wing. The 72nd FW was also headquartered at Peterson Field.

In April 1945, Peterson Field was assigned to Continental Air Forces. The location of the Army Air Forces Instructors School at the base signaled another mission change. A short time later, on 31 December 1945, the Army inactivated the base, turning the property over to the City of Colorado Springs.

The legacy of Peterson Field and the military presence in Colorado Springs took a significant turn in September 1947, following the birth of the United States Air Force. Soon after its inception, the fledgling service twice reactivated the base, from 29 September 1947 to 15 January 1948 and again from 22 September 1948 into 1949. During the latter period, the base served as an airfield for Headquarters, 15th Air Force which had been temporarily located in Colorado Springs. Peterson Field inactivated again when 15th Air Force moved to March Air Force Base in 1949.

The Air Force activated Peterson Field once more, following the January 1951 establishment of Air Defense Command at Ent AFB, located in downtown Colorado Springs. The 4600th Air Base Group activated simultaneously on 1 January 1951 and provided support for the newly established command. In 1958 the 4600th achieved wing status and was designated as the 4600th Air Base Wing. Subsequently, on 1 April 1975, the Air Force redesignated the wing as the 46th Aerospace Defense Wing. One year later, on 1 March 1976, Peterson Field was renamed Peterson Air Force Base.


Then it somehow proves the AAF existed until 1976 because that is when the renaming took place? Note the Date the USAF reactivated "Peterson Field", Sept. 29, 1947.
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby Access Denied » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:20 am

Legislative History of the AAF and USAF
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Legi ... AF.djvu/66

“On 26 December [September –AD] 1947 the Secretary of Defense approved Transfer Order Number 1 which brought the personnel of the Army Air Forces into the Department of the Air Force and the United States Air Force. This constituted the first substantive act in creating the new department, and was followed by other transfer orders. By 30 June 1948, 60 per cent of these transfer projects were completed. Finally, Transfer Order No. 40, dated 22 July 1949, consigned to the Air Force what were regarded as the remaining necessary and appropriate powers, functions, and duties, thus completing the process of transfer within the two-year period specified by the National Defense Act.”

How much longer are you going to continue to ignore all the evidence that Tim and I have presented that proves your interpretation of history, assertion of facts, and assumptions about how things work in the real world, the military in particular, has been wrong in every single case?

[beginning on page one of this thread]

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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:48 am

Access Denied wrote:Legislative History of the AAF and USAF
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Legi ... AF.djvu/66

“On 26 December [September –AD] 1947 the Secretary of Defense approved Transfer Order Number 1 which brought the personnel of the Army Air Forces into the Department of the Air Force and the United States Air Force. This constituted the first substantive act in creating the new department, and was followed by other transfer orders. By 30 June 1948, 60 per cent of these transfer projects were completed. Finally, Transfer Order No. 40, dated 22 July 1949, consigned to the Air Force what were regarded as the remaining necessary and appropriate powers, functions, and duties, thus completing the process of transfer within the two-year period specified by the National Defense Act.”


It's telling that Tom chose a reference he had to correct. It's telling that Tom did not choose to underline the first sentence which shows the AAF along with it's personnel became the USAF on Sept. 26, 1947. It's telling that Tom did choose to quote a wiki reference that omitted the information that transfer order 1 also transferred installations, units , records, and property of the AAF to the USAF on September 26, 1947.

Everything that is relevant to this thread is covered in transfer order 1 signed by SECDEF Forrestal on September 26, 1947; that is installations, units, personnel, and property as it concerns Maj. Phillips and his assigned plane and his assigned base as the AAF/USAF Liaison Officer for the New Mexico wing of CAP.

I bothered to check and find the "effective date" for transfer order 1, it is 12:00 noon Sept. 26, 1947.

Air Force Fifty By Air Force Association
Paragraph 9. of this order (Transfer order 1 - lost_shaman) reads: "The transfers directed herein shall be effective at 12:00 noon on September 26, 1947."

Yes it is true that the National Security Act of 1947 did provide a two year period for the transition between the Army and the USAF, but it was SECDEF Forrestal that made these transfers happen and assigned the "effective dates" that were legally binding. What Tim and Tom fail to understand is that the AAF had been organized after WWII to exist as a somewhat independent organization within the ARMY and that the the AAF by itself was too small to exist on it's own without the ARMY so that when the AAF became the USAF via transfer order 1 it still needed 39 other transfer orders to provide the periphery services and operations that an independent service needs.

Tim and Tom also fail to understand Forrestal had made clear to the representatives of the Army and USAF that he was only going to sign the transfer orders that the representatives themselves had worked out and agreed upon and submitted to him in advance. Most of these agreements had been worked out by August 1947.
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby Access Denied » Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:40 pm

Dear Seth,

I have read your latest post with boundless delight. If I were to acknowledge it’s brilliance it would be impossible for me to acknowledge any work of a lower standard. And, as it is unthinkable that in the next thousand years I shall see it's equal, I am, to my regret, compelled to refrain from commenting on your divine composition and beg you a thousand times to overlook my short sight and timidity.

Sincerely,

Tom
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby astrophotographer » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:51 pm

lost_shaman wrote:
As I've shown as an officer in the AAF under the Command or Control of the Commanding General, AAF, he along with property, installations, officers, and enlisted men were transferred over to the Chief of Staff, USAF or Department of the USAF via the signing of transfer order no.1 signed by SECDEF Forestall on Sept. 26, 1947.

If you have doubts then can you show otherwise?


I have my doubts because we keep listing various orders and references but nothing specific. Exactly when did these men cease becoming AAF and start becoming USAF. You make a case that this was instantaneous but, having served in the US military, these things don't often work quite this way. I felt the records from Phillips could resolve the issue. If you don't have them, then I still have my doubts about your interpretation that there was an instantaneous transfer of personnel.

Again, I am not married to this one way or the other. If you want to claim that your interpretation is the right one, go right ahead. I just think more evidence would be necessary to determine it one way or the other. Personnel records might resolve it.

EDIT: After thinking about this post, I recalled that I had Jesse Marcel Sr.'s military records (Thanks to Bruce Hutchnson) and should check to see when he became a member of the USAF. Unfortunately, it is not that clear. There is a statement about transfer order no 1 on September 26, 1947 . However, this seems to be a late addition/retroactive statement. In October and November 1947, his record has several sheets as he was trying to transfer to the reserve corps. All the letters from that time period have the officers referrring to themselves as being in the air corps and not the USAF. The documents also refer to Roswell as Roswell army air field. It is not until 20 Nov 47, does a document appear that gives the first indication of people being referred to as the USAF. However the same document states that Marcel is now going to be a member of the US Army reserve!
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby astrophotographer » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:46 am

This is the second Marcel document to which I was referring. It seems that there was confusion in November 1947 as to which branch of service to which they were attached just as I suspected.
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:15 am

astrophotographer wrote: It is not until 20 Nov 47, does a document appear that gives the first indication of people being referred to as the USAF. However the same document states that Marcel is now going to be a member of the US Army reserve!


The USAF did not have a 'reserve' in 1947. The 'Air Force reserve' was established by a joint Department of the Army and Department of the Air Force directive on on April 14, 1948 and transferred to the USAF by transfer order 10 on April 27, 1948. So it makes sense that Marcel would enter reserve status in the Officer's Reserve Corps under the Army in Nov.-Dec. '47. Transfer order 10 also transferred the Officer's Reserve Corps to the USAF along with Reserve Officers Training Corps and the Enlisted Reserve Corps while also abolishing the Air Corps Reserve section of the Army.

See Citizen airmen: a history of the Air Force Reserve, 1946-1994 By Gerald T. Cantwell, Air Force History and Museums Program pp. 84

astrophotographer wrote: Exactly when did these men cease becoming AAF and start becoming USAF. You make a case that this was instantaneous but, having served in the US military, these things don't often work quite this way. I felt the records from Phillips could resolve the issue. If you don't have them, then I still have my doubts about your interpretation that there was an instantaneous transfer of personnel.


If that is true then maybe someone needs to 'edit' wikipedia. :wink: Otherwise Authors and Historians including Air Force Historians must be given some amount of credit here considering they all tend to agree that the published history is correct and I personally can't find anything that makes me want to question the published histories.

Showing the published and accepted history of the USAF is wrong is IMO a much bigger story than any NM trip Allen Grant ever made! Do you really want to take that road just to question "my interpretation" of the published and accepted history of the USAF?
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby astrophotographer » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:42 pm

lost_shaman wrote:The USAF did not have a 'reserve' in 1947. The 'Air Force reserve' was established by a joint Department of the Army and Department of the Air Force directive on on April 14, 1948 and transferred to the USAF by transfer order 10 on April 27, 1948. So it makes sense that Marcel would enter reserve status in the Officer's Reserve Corps under the Army in Nov.-Dec. '47. Transfer order 10 also transferred the Officer's Reserve Corps to the USAF along with Reserve Officers Training Corps and the Enlisted Reserve Corps while also abolishing the Air Corps Reserve section of the Army.


My point being that in those documents each of the officers refer to themselves being in the air corps and not the air force. The base is listed as an army air field in November 1947. Therefore, there seems to have been a period where the officers were still referring to themselves as being in the AAF and not the USAF.
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby Access Denied » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:17 pm

HISTORY OF RANDOLPH AIR FORCE BASE
http://www.randolph.af.mil/library/fact ... sp?id=5532

"The Air Force became a separate service September 18, 1947, and on January 13, 1948, Randolph Field, and the Air Force's other major installations, was renamed Randolph Air Force Base."

Self-service support
http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/ ... te_071210/

"The Army transferred most fixed-wing aircraft to the Air Force after the 1948 Key West roles-and-missions agreement, including the C-47s that provided assault airlift."
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:57 am

astrophotographer wrote:My point being that in those documents each of the officers refer to themselves being in the air corps and not the air force. The base is listed as an army air field in November 1947. Therefore, there seems to have been a period where the officers were still referring to themselves as being in the AAF and not the USAF.


As pointed out in previous posts the Air Corps and all officers and enlisted men in the Air Corps were transferred to the Department of the Air Force on Sept. 26, 1947 via Transfer order 1.

Your assumption that because Officers were still referring to themselves as Air Corps means they were still referring to themselves as AAF not USAF is false. The Air Corps was established by congress and could therefore only be disestablished by act of congress. While this disestablishment was taking place the Air Corps and it's Officers and enlisted men were under the department of the USAF after Sept. 26, 1947. The use of 'Air Corps' after that date therefore can not simply be assumed to be a reference to the AAF (the AAF became an independent Branch now named the USAF).
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby astrophotographer » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:23 pm

lost_shaman wrote:As pointed out in previous posts the Air Corps and all officers and enlisted men in the Air Corps were transferred to the Department of the Air Force on Sept. 26, 1947 via Transfer order 1.

Your assumption that because Officers were still referring to themselves as Air Corps means they were still referring to themselves as AAF not USAF is false. The Air Corps was established by congress and could therefore only be disestablished by act of congress. While this disestablishment was taking place the Air Corps and it's Officers and enlisted men were under the department of the USAF after Sept. 26, 1947. The use of 'Air Corps' after that date therefore can not simply be assumed to be a reference to the AAF (the AAF became an independent Branch now named the USAF).


Marcel's record of duties lists this transfer order as if it were retro active in April of 1948. Additionally, why would they keep referring to themselves as "air corps" (which was the same term they referred to themselves while in the AAF) and not the USAF (which was what they were now attached to according to your interpretation of the events)? It seems the issue might best be resolved by Major Phillips records.
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Re: "Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:48 am

astrophotographer wrote:
Marcel's record of duties lists this transfer order as if it were retro active in April of 1948. Additionally, why would they keep referring to themselves as "air corps" (which was the same term they referred to themselves while in the AAF) and not the USAF (which was what they were now attached to according to your interpretation of the events)? It seems the issue might best be resolved by Major Phillips records.


Nonsense. You are ignoring the fact that both the first and second lines have been typed over which tells me they were typed in advance. For instance the first line clearly starts as "1 Jul 47/31 Dec 47"; you've already posted evidence that Marcel was accepted to Army reserve Dec 1, 47 and there is clearly some edit across the 31 date in line one. There are clearly edits in line 2 for instance it looks as if the "Dec" was hand written on-top of an original "Jan" and it's not clear if Marcel was "A-2" or "S-2" because the A is imposed on-top of the S.

Line one and two both appear to have been typed in advance and edited later. So saying that line three that refers to transfer order 1 appears "as if it were retroactive" is a bogus observation IMO.
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