Gilles F. wrote:
Mister Salas first claimed to have been in Echo flight affected in mars 1967, and that's wrong. After to have been in November flight affected, and that's wrong.
Someone have a document showing where Mister Salas was in mars 1967 or during mars critical period? Oscar flight or Norton AFB?
Because, out ad hominem
attack or dunno what in this sens, this "ubiquity" of Mister Salas is very questionning me, or maybe can "solve" the controversy imho.
Help me Mister J. Carlson http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2010/11/fran ... icles.html
You seem to be doing a great job on the other blog -- numerous comments by Farnk Warren, however, are simply not
true. I was never warned about vitriol and I was never told that I had been banned for life from his forum. Hastings has never answered in any detail whatsoever the assertions I've made, and Salas has indeed made a lot of changes in his story from day one. Hastings, in fact, absents himself completely at every forum I have ever confronted him on -- he leaves and refuses to answer questions -- that's his bloody trademark
. I can construct a complete list of very easily confirmed lies that Hastings and Salas have both stated on many occasions, so Frank Warren can defend them all he likes, but it's a verfiable fact that both men continue to avoid answering questions, and that they have produced nothing at all to refute the statements of my father, Walt Figel, and Frederick Meiwald. They can say whatever they want about 1996, but can any of it be verified? I can easily verify every claim I've ever made, and I make a point of answering all questions put to me. I don't avoid them, and I don't ignore them, as Warren, Hastings and Salas do continuously. If they want to do away with this controversy, all they have to do is call Walt Figel and have him repeat what they insist he said in 1996. I personally don't believe he made those claims, while others say they think he was just telling Salas what he wanted to hear, but they can prove
it by simply presenting Figel's testimony, as given by Figel. If they simply talk to Figel tomorrow and get him to admit that he told them all about the UFO interference at Echo Flight, that would end the discussion. Unfortunately, they haven't been able to do that, and none of the interviews that he gave to Hastings between 2006 and 2008 show that a UFO was present; they just insist that some guy who was 6-10 feet underground at the time was making a bad joke about a UFO. This is easily confirmed by simply reading the transcripts Hastings has liberally spread across cyberspace. He never got anything definitive from anybody over the course of numerous years, so he should just end this entire controversy by getting something definite. How hard is that?
It should be very easy to do if it's indeed true, so tell him to quit playing around and get a definitive statement. It's not a difficult task, if he's an honest man as Frank Warren insists. The rules are simple, and it's not a hard thing to understand -- unless you're lying
For God's sake, I had no problem doing this. From the first time I spoke with Figel, he has openly insisted that he has NEVER claimed UFOs were involved at Echo Flight, and that the incident at Oscar Flight NEVER took place. So if Hastings and Salas want to refute this, all they have to do is exactly
what Hastings promised he could easily do last March: produce a recent statement from Figel supporting their assertions
. The fact that after promising to do so, neither man actually could
is telling. In fact, they produced nothing of the sort other than these supposed 1996 claims. If these claims are true, why didn't they use them in 1996? Fowler's records indicate that Salas was telling him that everything he asserted had been confirmed by my father and Walt Figel; he told Fowler as well that the whole story was going to be featured on the UFO cable TV show "Sightings", and that it was imperative for a member of the Echo Flight crew to be on the show as well, which didn't happen. I know for a fact that my father refused to assert that UFOs were involved at Echo Flight, because he told me about it shortly afterwards, insisting that he could have been on TV had he lied about the UFO interference that took place. He told a newspaper reporter in Great Falls, Montana the same thing in 1996, so Salas' insistence that my father confirmed his story is more B.S. -- another lie
, and one that he was telling as far back as 1996. But we also know that Figel wasn't featured on the show either, and Salas told Fowler that he desperately wanted to have someone from Echo Flight interviewed as well. In other words, Salas was insisting that both confirmed his story, but were never interviewed on television. Why?
He says that my father was willing, but the producer of the show didn't think he would be a very effective witness. Why?
They had to settle on an interview with Don Crawford, the deputy commander of the team that relieved my father and Figel, and Figel has already stated on at least three occasions that everything Crawford said was crap -- just more lies. Why?
It took fifteen years of discussion and argument before Salas presented these interviews with Figel. Why?
I'll tell you why: it's crap, it didn't happen, and he didn't have any real
confirmations, because if he did, he would have used them
. If he and Hastings had such confirmations, and knew that they could stand up to concerted examination, they would have used them months
before their ridiculous press conference, not one day before
. They just didn't want their press circus to be affected when Figel came forward and said "this is all crap -- I didn't say this." After all, that's exactly what happened. Figel very clearly stated that he has NEVER said UFOs were involved at Echo Flight. There's only one explanation that makes any sense at all, and that one explanation is the same thuing I've been insisting upon for months: Hastings and Salas are both liars, and nothing they say can be trusted or verified.
As for Frank Warren, who really gives a s^~t? He's just a flunkie on the payroll.
In response to your other questions, it's unfortunate, but we don't have any documentation regarding personnel assignments for the March 1967 period -- nothing
. On the other hand, we do
have a letter from Colonel (Ret.) Fredercik Meiwald to Salas insists both he and Salas were assigned a home site at Oscar Flight. The letter was written in October 1996 (I think -- the month may be different; the year is definitely 1996). Unfortunately for Robert Salas, and this is telling, he refused for at least three years
to consider anything in that letter as a confirmation of any sort, since he was claiming for those three years between 1996 and his eventual reconsideration of his input that both he and Meiwald were actually at November Flight
-- not exactly a confidence-builder in the veracity of his claims. Ask yourself, why in the world would he sit on this letter and refuse to use any of it to confirm his UFO story? An honest man would simply have refused to consider November Flight at all. Fowler's personal email records tell us that Salas settled on November Flight as the location of his own story only a few weeks before he received this letter from Meiwald insisting that they were both at Oscar Flight, and he basically sat on it, and refused to mention it to anybody. Why?
He didn't even tell Fowler -- he says only that during his first phone call with Meiwald, he neglected to ask him what flight they were working at, adding that it was probably November Flight -- so while he was still telling the world that he was at Echo Flight, he was telling those he desperately wanted to believe his story (i.e., Fowler) that he was at November Flight, while he was in turn notified by his own commander that he was at Oscar Flight! He very soon afterwards changed his story to reflect the November Flight location, ignoring the very defintive account from Meiwald that they were at Oscar Flight, while nonetheless using Meiwald's account as a confirmation
of his own claims. And he did so for three years! And people accuse me
of cherry picking data! I'm not even close
to this guy's level.
Three years later, when he was picked up by Greer's Disclosure Project
, he finally settled onto Oscar Flight as the location of his story. What can we surmise from this sad little refrain? This tells us a couple of important things. For instance, the November Flight position of his story was more important to him than Oscar Flight -- Hell, it was more important than any actual confirmation
was. Why? Because Oscar Flight isn't even mentioned in the Echo Flight incident documents. He knew very well that he was trying to establish a UFO event out of nothing, so when it became obvious that he couldn't use Echo Flight -- because he wasn't at
Echo Flight -- he needed a location that could at least be defended, and November Flight is the only other missile site mentioned in the original documents. The fact that it's mentioned in the same paragraph as "UFO" makes his choice of location a no-brainer -- which also worked out well for him, since the only people he needed to convince also possess the inability or a marked propensity against using their brains for extended periods of time -- and believe me, there's nothing facetious about this observation either; the fact that very few people have ever questioned the reality behind the issues he's raised is proof of that! What we've got is Robert Salas picking and choosing the best features within his story that can best explain a UFO presence, and he goes with that version of the events -- with full backing from CUFON, MUFON, and NICAP -- whether the actual facts that he's got in hand, and that can be easily verified support the story or not. Three years of November Flight assertions during which he has complete confirmation of another scenario entirely from the only possible witness on the entire planet proves that he's trying to create
a story, not remember
one. After all, who would ever reach the conclusions that he's reached honestly? Would a man with that little grasp of the events populating his own life maintain for another three years that the witness who served as his commander on the date in question didn't remember the detailed event he discusses well enough to remember what missile flight he was attached to? Why the Hell would anybody believe this ridiculous story?
Are we expected to believe that three years later, Salas reassesses the letter and phone call he had with Meiwald, decides that Meiwald was right all along, a decision necessitating another change of locale, excusing his mismatched decisions with a new assessment that basically insists, "I know I originally said Meiwald confirms the whole story about November Flight, but I missed this one little part in the letter that says 'we were at Oscar Flight'. I didn't go into a whole lot of details at the time, so it's perfectly understandable that I would have missed this one little point. After all, I wasn't with the Disclosure Project
at the time, so I didn't know how much money I could actually make at this thing, and the minor details in a story, such as where it takes place and so forth, just isn't that important to verify unless you're writing a book or something -- which, oddly enough, is exactly what I'm trying to do now
." And of course
CUFON, MUFONm, and NICAP let him get away with it, offering complete support of every reassessment he made. He was, after all, liberally spreading their toast with "UFOs are real, and you're a fool if you don't accept it" jams and jellies! Hell, Salas had already decided upon November Flight as a location well before he even spoke
to Frederick Meiwald! I doubt he ever intended to use Meiwald's infomration at all, since he already knew whjat story he wanted to tell -- and since Oscar Flight was the location that could best be discussed in the context of a UFO, that's the location he went to. He's been nothing but b.s. since the very beginning, and his 1996 communications to Raymond Fowler, looked at anew in hindsight of the past fifteen years, proves
this -- to everyone, apparently, except Raymond Fowler himself.
In all of Salas' early articles, he insists that Meiwald confirms the UFO story he tells. He doesn't, however, publish any of Meiwald's statements -- he just insists that Meiwald confirms them. The onlky details he offers up are the extent of the missile failures. He writes to Fowler that Meiwald confirms everything, except he says there were only 4 missiles lost. In his article, this changes to 5 missiles lost. By the time Disclosure Project
came about, he was saying this was 7-8 missiles. But he never has Meiwald himself saying anything
-- everything is paraphrased. By the time he actually publishes the letter, nobody remembers that all of the details Meiwald has discussed were studiously ignored for years, including the fact that it took place at Oscar Flight! In other words, he was telling everyone that Meiwald confirms his story, when he absolutely does not. And upon publishing the letter that supposedly confirms this new UFO incident at Oscar Flight -- a letter he received in 1996 -- nobody notices that the event described is all second-hand information that most assuredly did NOT occur during the course of a missile failure incident
. It confirms nothing
except the fact that they were at Oscar Flight, the one point of interest actually presented that has any value to the facts of the event at all, and which was then ignored for years
when it was better for Salas' claims that the story takes place at a November Flight location. As Meiwald's claims, he refuses entirely to connect a UFO to any missile failures incident that he was involved with, whether at November Flight or Osacar Flight. Contrary to what Hastings and Salas have claimed, Meiwald is not a confirmation -- it's an interesting little story that even Meiwald asserts is not helpful in establishing anything
that Salas has been trying to establish since 1996.
And the fact that investigators and researchers associated with CUFON, MUFON, and NICAP have all
ignored the above details of this incident is a severe indictment against their own
worth as investigative or research-based organizations. They went along with and publicized an event for years
that has nothing at all to recommend it, and whenever doubts regarding the veracity of that event were expressed, they ridiculed and attempted to cast aspersions on those expressing the doubts instead of simply examining the claims made. As for the "confirmation" that both Salas and Hastings have insisted Meiwald provides, it doesn't exist,
and for at least three years, Salas' actions prove that not even he
considered it to be a confirmation. The easily proven facts of the matter insist that there is no confirmation
for anything that Hastings and Salas have previously insisted is factual about Echo-November-Oscar Flight. And that's why they have had to continuously lie about the confirmations they possess, most recently at their September 27, 2010 dog and pony show, during which they insisted that both my father and Colonel (Ret.) Walt Figel have confirmed the UFO events they've described, doing so only days after both men very publically insisted otherwise.