Roswellian Soothsayer?

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Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby DrDil » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:43 pm

I wrote the following quite a while ago, I've never really seen it discussed or even mentioned much anywhere else (Clarke, Roberts & Magonia excepted). And I wondered if others here had, but regardless of whether you have or not then I'd still be interested to know what others think of it.

======================
======================

Bernard Newman (1897-1968) was a prolific author and published over 100 books in total (sometimes at the rate of four or five a year!!) A lot of these were non-fiction and varied massively in content, from travel-companions to global-politics to fact-based espionage, but it’s (as you pointed out) the work of fiction he wrote that I wished to discuss. Firstly let’s forget about Newman (I believe he’s inconsequential apart from being the author) and concentrate on the book itself, however this is impossible without also factoring certain aspects of the modern-day Roswell mythos into the equation.

It’s a book which was originally published in the UK in June of 1948 (by Gollancz) and was one of the first (if not THE first) which addressed Flying Saucers and their ‘alien’ implications, but I do believe it to be a fact that it was the first UFO orientated book by a UK author. I hate to labour the point but as I say this was possibly the first book on Flying Saucers published, now honestly, how many have heard of it before?

It was a work of fiction and was presented as such.

So you may ask, “What’s my point?”

Well here’s a brief synopsis of the book, it’s basically about as you say a hoax but this is perpetrated by some of the world’s leading scientists as a method of uniting world leaders. There is firstly a UFO crash reported in the UK, then Russia and then, New Mexico. In New Mexico the American army quickly set to work, the UFO is retrieved and studied by US scientists who quickly discover it is constructed of a metal so hard it can’t be scratched, cut or marked. Meanwhile back in the UK the UFO which they have discovered has strange markings on it as if made by a tool, also an expert from the British museum remarks how similar they appear to be to Egyptian hieroglyphics. The story progresses and the hoaxers decide to once again stage a crash but this time they plan to include a body but do so in a way that it is obvious that the crash badly damaged it. After the discovery of this new crash an, “Alien autopsy” is announced but the scientists (hoaxers) who perpetrated the events offer a cadaver filled with, “Exotic animal parts” so as to confuse the pathologists.

Is any of this sounding familiar?

Remember, this was twelve months after Roswell and 40 to 50 years before ANY of it was incorporated into the modern-day Roswell myth, hopefully this goes some way towards explaining why I described the subsequent omission of it from practically all Roswell-related literature ‘perplexing’!!

And just to clarify, I DON’T believe Newman was privy to any kind of US intelligence which would have hinted at or foretold of the Roswell debacle but rather hoped to show that several of the major aspects of the modern-day Roswell myth were published in a work of fiction many, many years before they were touted as fact in the public domain. And I should probably add that Newman (as you may have found by the lack of information) wasn’t a massively popular or influential author, but I feel that this just makes the synchronicity all the more curious. Also I’m not saying there is any relevance here other than what the reader decides, ‘eye of the beholder’ and all that, it’s just that, well, in my humble opinion there seems to be a LOT of coincidences that abound here and not just minor ones, but major aspects which have consequently formed the foundations on which the Roswell myth was built. (Crashed UFO, military involvement, metal which can’t be damaged, strange ‘alien’ writing, dead ‘alien’ bodies etc. etc.)

"...the more UFOlogists barricade themselves within the stockade of Roswell, the less credible will be their entire position when their little wooden fort is overrun"

(Brookesmith 122 - Devereux, Paul and Peter Brookesmith. UFOLOGY: The First Fifty Years. New York: Facts on File, 1997) - via Printy.


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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby murnut » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:50 pm

Good post Dr.

Roswell is certainly an interesting story and/or myth at this point.

Curious how items from pop culture finds it way into the story
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:54 am

Very interesting DrDil, what was the name of the book?

[and a belated welcome to RU by the way]

You may also be interested in this blog posting by Steve a while back in case you missed it…

Play it again, Scam
http://www.realityuncovered.net/blog/20 ... gain-scam/

If the board members of Scammers Inc needed a blueprint for their plan to hoodwink wealthy investors with tales of crashed flying saucers and reverse engineered alien technology, they didn’t have to look very far. Conveniently for them, a blueprint already existed in the form of the Aztec UFO scam that fooled wealthy investor’s way back in the late 40’s and early 50’s.

Image

Blueprint for Deception
Frank Scully’s “Behind the Flying Saucers”, published in September 1950 by Henry Holt & Co, was a tale of crashed flying saucers and dead alien bodies, mixed in with a load of nonsense about where they came from, how they got here and why. Scully’s source of this unbelievable information was an acquaintance of his by the name of Silas Mason Newton and a mysterious “Dr Gee”. Dr Gee was allegedly a brilliant government scientist in the field of magnetic energy and told Scully he had examined crashed flying saucers for the government. In reality, Dr Gee’s real name was Leo GeBauer and he owned a radio and television parts store in Phoenix, Arizona. Newton was the president of his own oil exploration business, the Newton Oil Company. It was this field of oil exploration in which the two con artists were to make the money from their saucer scam.

One wonders if Scully and/or Newton was perhaps influenced by this author as well?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:28 am

It might also seem that the Original "Quatermass and the Pit" film could have been made off the back of it?
Ceramic metallic tube found full of insect like creatures?
The book was by Nigel Kneale, and the TV programme was transmitted in 1958

It could have also been related to the original 'Quatermass Experiment' transmitted in 1953.
Aloo worth noting that the series was transmitted live and the special effects were quite well ahead of their time.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:18 pm

and a mysterious “Dr Gee”. Dr Gee was allegedly a brilliant government scientist in the field of magnetic energy and told Scully he had examined crashed flying saucers for the government. In reality, Dr Gee’s real name was Leo GeBauer and he owned a radio and television parts store in Phoenix, Arizona.


And once again we see the favorite way for hoaxers to "dress-up" their credentials...one only need prepend the monkier "Dr." in front of your name. Over in another thread in Murnut's Sauce we saw a UFO convention being announced and run by "Dr. UFO".

Not quite as serious as stolen valor, but the same basic fraud line. Although, I have a lot of respect for the people who put in all that time such that they could legitimately call themselves a "Dr.", and so they would have every right to be angry with these charlatans.

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby DrDil » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:27 pm

murnut wrote:Good post Dr.

Roswell is certainly an interesting story and/or myth at this point.

Curious how items from pop culture finds it way into the story

Hi Mur & thanks,

I still can’t decide whether this particular nugget of information bolsters or detracts from the Roswell mythos (as it is seen today).

Access Denied wrote:Very interesting DrDil, what was the name of the book?

[and a belated welcome to RU by the way]

You may also be interested in this blog posting by Steve a while back in case you missed it…

Play it again, Scam
http://www.realityuncovered.net/blog/20 ... gain-scam/

If the board members of Scammers Inc needed a blueprint for their plan to hoodwink wealthy investors with tales of crashed flying saucers and reverse engineered alien technology, they didn’t have to look very far. Conveniently for them, a blueprint already existed in the form of the Aztec UFO scam that fooled wealthy investor’s way back in the late 40’s and early 50’s.
<snip>

One wonders if Scully and/or Newton was perhaps influenced by this author as well?

Thanks for the welcome AD and obviously the name would help!! Image

It was simply titled, “The Flying Saucer” and he actually has a wiki page where it is listed here).

Image
The Flying Saucer, by Bernard Newman (1948)

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And once again we see the favorite way for hoaxers to "dress-up" their credentials...one only need prepend the monkier "Dr." in front of your name. Over in another thread in Murnut's Sauce we saw a UFO convention being announced and run by "Dr. UFO".

Not quite as serious as stolen valor, but the same basic fraud line. Although, I have a lot of respect for the people who put in all that time such that they could legitimately call themselves a "Dr.", and so they would have every right to be angry with these charlatans.

Ray

Ha, ha, and on that note I should perhaps mention that the *Dr* that precedes my name is purely a forum moniker and a real-world nickname that has followed me about since childhood. :D

I have (and do) put my real name to anything I write online & 'off-forum’ (as it were).

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:08 am

Hey DrDil,

Over the years I've discussed Frank Scully's Book as being a blueprint for the modern Roswell myth and also wondered why no-one hardly ever mentions it. The fact that there is a book for the UK predating Scully with the same basic storyline is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Have you read Scully's book? It's available on-line.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3927939/BEHIN ... 4-pp-ebook

Despite what people say about Scully, the book is actually a damn good read! Some parts of Scully's investigation are really good, true, and right on the money. In some way's he was ahead of the curve, too bad a couple of his sources turned out to be bogus because of this his book is summarily dismissed.

What are the odds of the Roswell Mythos and similar details being laid out in Two Books by 1950 by two unrelated Authors?

I believe Roswell was originally a counter intelligence operation designed to shut down the Press in order for the secret UFO investigation initiated by Lt. Gen. Twining on July 2nd 1947 to go forward without being hampered the Press and independent Press investigations. If that's true (I believe it is) these early stories about crashed Saucers in New Mexico recovered by the Military and the later Roswell Mythos also look like the handiwork of counter intelligence.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby DrDil » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:22 pm

lost_shaman wrote:Hey DrDil,

Over the years I've discussed Frank Scully's Book as being a blueprint for the modern Roswell myth and also wondered why no-one hardly ever mentions it. The fact that there is a book for the UK predating Scully with the same basic storyline is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Have you read Scully's book? It's available on-line.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3927939/BEHIN ... 4-pp-ebook

Despite what people say about Scully, the book is actually a damn good read! Some parts of Scully's investigation are really good, true, and right on the money. In some way's he was ahead of the curve, too bad a couple of his sources turned out to be bogus because of this his book is summarily dismissed.

What are the odds of the Roswell Mythos and similar details being laid out in Two Books by 1950 by two unrelated Authors?

I believe Roswell was originally a counter intelligence operation designed to shut down the Press in order for the secret UFO investigation initiated by Lt. Gen. Twining on July 2nd 1947 to go forward without being hampered the Press and independent Press investigations. If that's true (I believe it is) these early stories about crashed Saucers in New Mexico recovered by the Military and the later Roswell Mythos also look like the handiwork of counter intelligence.

I was aware of the book and seen it mentioned many times but I haven’t read it. Thanks for the Iink and I guess I’m going to have to read it as it’s obviously not what I thought it was (although I struggle with E-books as I prefer to read books I can touch :D).

Regarding Roswell I was looking at Carrion’s new site earlier, he also believes that it was all a government sanctioned operation of some description, he has quite a few documents uploaded in the Roswell section, most of which I hadn’t seen before.

They are mainly related to Spaatz whom Carrion is interested in due to his association with Starr:

Starr also stated that General Carl Spaatz had a “group right now” searching for the objects. In a separate newspaper article on July 7, 1947, Spaatz denies this:

General Carl Spaatz, commandant of the army air forces, in the Pacific Northwest on a fishing trip, said he knew nothing about the mystery objects or of plans to use AF planes to search for them.”

The source for the above is from Carrion’s Blog that he posted a week ago and highlights several inconsistencies surrounding Starr, his whereabouts and his possible involvement in orchestrating the Roswell crash.

Interesting stuff no matter what you believe.


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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:46 am

DrDil wrote:The source for the above is from Carrion’s Blog that he posted a week ago and highlights several inconsistencies surrounding Starr, his whereabouts and his possible involvement in orchestrating the Roswell crash.

Thanks for the links. I took a look and the first thing I noticed is I’m afraid his timeline is off. According to an interview with Brazel on the evening of July 8, 1947 (the same day as the famous press release) he came into town the day before on Monday the 7th to tell the Sheriff about what he found on the ranch several weeks earlier so the military wouldn’t have been aware of it before that…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/Witnesses/brazel.htm

DrDil wrote:Interesting stuff no matter what you believe.

Indeed. You may be interested in this thread of mine if you haven’t seen it yet…

Roswell explained? Potential NEW evidence!
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:20 am

Access Denied wrote:
DrDil wrote:The source for the above is from Carrion’s Blog that he posted a week ago and highlights several inconsistencies surrounding Starr, his whereabouts and his possible involvement in orchestrating the Roswell crash.

Thanks for the links. I took a look and the first thing I noticed is I’m afraid his timeline is off. According to an interview with Brazel on the evening of July 8, 1947 (the same day as the famous press release) he came into town the day before on Monday the 7th to tell the Sheriff about what he found on the ranch several weeks earlier so the military wouldn’t have been aware of it before that…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/Witnesses/brazel.htm

DrDil wrote:Interesting stuff no matter what you believe.


The timeline is right on according to the counter intelligence hypothesis I've pointed out for years now. My Hypothesis states that a counter intelligence operation originated out of Write Field after Lt. Gen. Twining ordered a secret investigation on July 2nd. The timeline mentioned occurs over July 3rd - 6th which perfectly fits within my hypothesis. The Ohio area surrounding Wright Field is exactly where my hypothesis states that the counter intelligence operation originated.

I had never seen this before but it is consistent with the type of evidence my counter intelligence hypothesis implies would exist.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Chorlton » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:48 am

lost_shaman wrote:
I had never seen this before but it is consistent with the type of evidence my counter intelligence hypothesis implies would exist.


What? That it was an experimental balloon and payload?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:33 am

Chorlton wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:
I had never seen this before but it is consistent with the type of evidence my counter intelligence hypothesis implies would exist.


What? That it was an experimental balloon and payload?


No, that it was a preplanned counter intelligence operation originating out of Wright Field after the secret flying saucer investigation began on Lt. Gen. Twining's orders on July 2nd aimed at deflating the National Press interest in reporting or investigating Flying Saucer stories which were explained away as weather balloons while the secret investigations continued in earnest at Wright Field.

Only the premise "that it was a preplanned counter intelligence operation originating out of Wright Field" and it's objective are are the hypothesis. The facts that secret investigations continued in earnest at Wright Field and that the National Press interest in reporting or investigating Flying Saucer stories was significantly diminished after a massive joint military campaign to explain Flying saucers as weather balloons are both general historical knowledge.

The contemporary Roswell hypothesis ignores the fact that Lt. Gen. Twining ordered a secret investigation of the Phenomena on July 2nd in favor of the assumption that calling Flying saucers weather balloons makes a good cover-story for one single Mogul balloon train forgotten for weeks by the people who launched it. Both projects were equally secret and both originated out of Wright Field. The difference between them was that the National Press and the Public were at the time in a state of near panic over Flying Saucers not Weather balloons and the Military Brass was already on record in the Press downplaying saucer stories.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:26 am

LS, I would suggest (as I have before elsewhere) your hypothesis (actually David Rudiak’s it would appear) is falsified on account of the fact that it’s possible (actually I would argue it’s probable given the “mass hysteria” created by Arnold’s sighting) a lot of people were reporting weather balloons with radar targets as flying saucers/discs in late June/early July 1947 since military and civilian weathers stations had just started using them widespread then…

1947 Weather Balloon Use
http://www.roswellproof.com/balloon_use.html

Contemporary Roswell debunkers claim the foil/balsa kite radar target shown in 1947 Roswell crash debunking photos, allegedly the "real" recovered Roswell debris, came from a Project Mogul balloon. To bolster this claim, they further assert such radar targets were extremely rare in 1947 and used only on special project like Mogul. But the historical record actually shows that the military, in debunking Roswell and the many flying saucer reports, was claiming exactly the opposite, namely recent, routine, widespread use of the targets by both military and civilian weather services, and these targets, plus other weather balloon flights, supposedly explained the sudden widespread sightings of "flying saucers".

I think Rudiak actually debunks himself here by outlining the evidence for "recent, routine, widespread use"… in other words they were rare until then. Name me one “Roswell debunker” who claims radar targets were “used only on special project like Mogul”? The argument is it’s likely Brazel had never found one before even though he claimed to have found weather balloons before… and for the same reason it’s likely Marcel had never seen a configuration quite like Mogul before. As an intelligence officer it seems reasonable for him to have been suspicious of it’s origin/purpose [e.g. “not ours” i.e. possibly Russian] and also of the "official explanation" since he wouldn't be privy to what it was really for…

[or made privy to it afterwards since it was compartmentalized]

What evidence do you have that rules out weather balloons as a potential explanation for many (not necessarily all) of the sightings during that period as suggested by the Air Force? I mean speaking of a “Roswellian Soothsayer” (the title of this thread) there’s this infamous example from Circleville, Ohio on July 6th just two days before the Roswell “incident”…

PICKAWAY 'SAUCER IS ARMY WEATHER DEVICE
http://www.roswellproof.com/Circleville.html

A buzz of excitement swept Pickaway County Saturday when a farmer eight miles south of Circleville reported finding a "mysterious" object in his field thought to be connected with the "flying saucer" mystery.

Sherman Campbell said he found the object attached to remains of a balloon on his farm on West Fall Rd. near the Ross-Pickaway County line. Pickaway County sheriff's office said several other calls were received from persons who claim they found similar "discs."

Sounds like a dead ringer for what happened in Roswell to me… with of course the notable exception that the Roswell “weather balloon” had been performing a classified mission. That article even debunks your “debunking campaign” theory…

Progress of such devices through the sky, an Army Airforce official said, is comparatively slow, and not at the high speeds witnesses have attributed to the "flying saucers."

Why would an Air Force official debunk their own “debunking campaign”? Unless I'm missing something about your hypothesis, that makes no sense to me if they were trying to cover something up or it was a "preplanned counter-intelligence operation"…
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Gilles F. » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:44 am

Greetings,

As already asked to David Rudiak (without answer it seems) for other matter, will trie here to lost_shaman regarding his hypothesis, but against the E.T. hypothesis too.

If Roswell is part of a supra mega operation to manipulate the media (FS assumption) or Brazel have been dicted to say what he said in his interview (the ET myth) , notice the following quote :

"Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon".
(my emphaze)

USAAF "dicted" or "faced" an insolit detail, but they forgotted to use what they dicted or an element of the event they provokated A to Z (FS hypothesis) in the following demonstrations or to explain this insolite detail in 1947.

Yes, If USAAF orchestrated a cover up, "dicted" Brazel or provokated Roswell as LS is proposing, what better "evidence" to present an ML307 with tape with flowers upon to the 1947 public or medias in the 1947 debunking campaign ? And claim " You see, that's explain the rancher statment". They forgotted cause they have no brain when they constructed the case #-o; or regarding ET hypothesis, there is nothing more that what happened really in Foster Ranch. Brazel is speacking frankly on the real experience he have. We will examine fastly after the thesis Brazel was speacking about previous balloons he found and they were NYU, a recent ad hoc argument by ET proponents (at least by french Gildas Bourdais ET Roswell proponent - who banned my observations out his blog-).

Better, Victor T. Hoeflich, the American Merri Lei corporation, toys manufacturer "director" which conceived the radar target as it is indicated in the legend is in a picture in a july 1947 newspaper (Bergen (New Jersey) Evening Record, 12 july 1947) then part of the demonstrations, legended as :
"Brooklyn manufacturer [...] launches one of the target which his firm makes for the Signal Corps"
.

But he forgotted to take with him a corner reflector with such a tape. Or USAAF forget to ask him about corner reflector he conceived regarding what Brazel saids in order to debunk Roswell they "fabricated" A to Z, and the so called saucers #-o

(BTW, I located too the manufacture in Brooklyn (and not Mannathan as I read often) in several US publicity. The adress was 918 Halsey Street, Brooklyn 33.

We can see how the july 1947 debunking campaign was not very well orchestrated with Roswell as a part of an operation against the media or public. As, regarding the ET thesis :

Out the scotch used for the balloons, the scotch tape for ML307 is a "detail" figuring in nota in ML307 blueprint (annexe 29 of the USAF report).

"Shall be acetate scotch film tape as made by [3M] or egal."


"I" presented candy tapes coming from 3M of the late 40's and 50's used by toys industry in dear Kevin Randle blog, with "similar symbols, as a friend discovered that "American Merri Lei corporation" was not the only toy's industry implicated in the conception of corner reflectors in US military history (Alox, Saint Louis, Missouri, was another) . Because sometimes it is writted Toy's industry and corner reflector conception "connexion" is strange and part of C. B. Moore "imagination".

No, Hoeflich is in 1947 contemporan newspapers, as another toy's compagny made a similar "job" for the army.

Brazel (as other witnesses) cant invent this detail : a scotch tape with flowers

You will probably say it is from the previous balloons he have already found in his ranch ? That he is describing in newpaper the previous balloons and such Balloons comes from NYU team by another coincidence. But we have a serious problem with such ad hoc attempt to rehabilitate the modern myth or Brazel under pressure by the army.

Loretta Proctor, remembers Brazel mentionning the tape when he visited Proctor's BEFORE the interview or to come to Roswell, as part of the "Flying Saucer" debris he described to her. He was speacking about the real debris then, not the previous balloons he recovered.

"There was also something he [Mac Brazel] described as tape which had printing on it. The color
of the printing was a kind of purple ."

"He said there was more stuff there, like a tape that had some sort of figures on it. "


Then this tape was part of the debris and Brazel then faced "NYU material" in the Foster field. He cant invent this "DNA" of Corner reflectors and then the case is closed imho.

// Brazel interview was a stratagem to sit down the future "weather balloons demonstration" and the operation, but Brazel made another "oups, I did it again" and "autodebunked" the cover up he was forced to be part :

"I'm sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon"


(Normal, Weather balloon and Mogul balloons with radar targets are different, and Brazel didn't find a weather balloon then, and is right again, but something different cause insolit things for a weather balloons - more things, more balloons materials, the "strange tape" -)

For the tape with flower patterns upon, USAF will wait the 90's in order to repare such a mistake to have not used Brazel flower tape mention in 1947 in this fantastic cover-up or in the sens of LS hypothesis cause they are very patient or sudently realizing it could serve the conspiracy. =D>

In essence, the debunking operation is very bad done if Roswell itself was part of the operation as LS is suggesting as hypothesis I modestly think.

However, the find of NYU materials at Brazel ranch which have been some hours considerated legitimaly as a Flying Saucer in the 1947 and contemporan contextualization of the term at this period (russian, domestic or top secret US things - nothing extraterrestrial then or we are in total anachronism) sounds today the best explanation of this event imho. I mean that if you ask yourself "it is impossible such protagonists confounded balloon materials with an ET craft" is a bad question (or argument).

As the NYU/Mogul is imho the thesis respecting the best several principles like parcimony ie, or to not call /invokate extraordinary causes to explain something when the ordinary ones makes the attending job and well explain the case, etc.

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:47 am

Post moved by me !
See other thread
On Roswell
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