Roswellian Soothsayer?

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:20 am

Access Denied wrote:LS, I would suggest (as I have before elsewhere) your hypothesis (actually David Rudiak’s it would appear) is falsified on account of the fact that it’s possible (actually I would argue it’s probable given the “mass hysteria” created by Arnold’s sighting) a lot of people were reporting weather balloons with radar targets as flying saucers/discs in late June/early July 1947 since military and civilian weathers stations had just started using them widespread then…

1947 Weather Balloon Use
http://www.roswellproof.com/balloon_use.html

Contemporary Roswell debunkers claim the foil/balsa kite radar target shown in 1947 Roswell crash debunking photos, allegedly the "real" recovered Roswell debris, came from a Project Mogul balloon. To bolster this claim, they further assert such radar targets were extremely rare in 1947 and used only on special project like Mogul. But the historical record actually shows that the military, in debunking Roswell and the many flying saucer reports, was claiming exactly the opposite, namely recent, routine, widespread use of the targets by both military and civilian weather services, and these targets, plus other weather balloon flights, supposedly explained the sudden widespread sightings of "flying saucers".



That is what the Army, AAF, and Navy were telling the Press and the Public, that Saucers and Disc's were just weather balloons, but history and documents show that the Military knew the phenomena was not weather balloons. The Twining Memo from Sept. 23, 1947 shows weather balloons were not the objects of concern. This being the case it also shows that the Military was willing and able to deceive the Press and Public early on while their interest in the phenomena remained high.



Access Denied wrote:What evidence do you have that rules out weather balloons as a potential explanation for many (not necessarily all) of the sightings during that period as suggested by the Air Force? I mean speaking of a “Roswellian Soothsayer” (the title of this thread) there’s this infamous example from Circleville, Ohio on July 6th just two days before the Roswell “incident”…

PICKAWAY 'SAUCER IS ARMY WEATHER DEVICE
http://www.roswellproof.com/Circleville.html

A buzz of excitement swept Pickaway County Saturday when a farmer eight miles south of Circleville reported finding a "mysterious" object in his field thought to be connected with the "flying saucer" mystery.

Sherman Campbell said he found the object attached to remains of a balloon on his farm on West Fall Rd. near the Ross-Pickaway County line. Pickaway County sheriff's office said several other calls were received from persons who claim they found similar "discs."

Sounds like a dead ringer for what happened in Roswell to me… with of course the notable exception that the Roswell “weather balloon” had been performing a classified mission. That article even debunks your “debunking campaign” theory…

Progress of such devices through the sky, an Army Airforce official said, is comparatively slow, and not at the high speeds witnesses have attributed to the "flying saucers."

Why would an Air Force official debunk their own “debunking campaign”? Unless I'm missing something about your hypothesis, that makes no sense to me if they were trying to cover something up or it was a "preplanned counter-intelligence operation"…


Not at all, it was ironically this Circleville report that forced me to consider the idea that Roswell was a counter intelligence operation. I don't believe any other local reports of RAWIN's being labeled Disc's after Ken Arnold's sighting and before Roswell have ever surfaced. But more interesting is that these reports of RAWIN's being labeled as Disc's also occur after July 2nd when Twining ordered an investigation of the Phenomena by T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field. Not only that but they are all concentrated in the Rural areas surrounding Wright Field. T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field had recently been reorganized and articulated a threefold mission for air technical intelligence:

1. Insure the prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise from any source.

2. Provide intelligence required for command decisions and counsel upon air preparedness and air operations.

3. Insure appropriate counter-intelligence measures.

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... hintel.htm

T-2 Intelligence is tasked with the investigation of the Phenomena at the very height of the Media frenzy. It therefore makes sense that the Press and public would be a logical counter intelligence target for such an Intelligence organization tasked with investigating a phenomena that was currently the subject of such intense Press scrutiny and Public attention when counter intelligence is part of their ATI mission. The PR campaign to fly RAWIN's and other RADAR targets for the Press and the blanket explanation of weather balloons for the phenomena by the Military as a concerted effort beginning July 9th (the day after Roswell - no pun intended) is a matter of Historical record, but so is the fact that the secret investigation continued in earnest.

Taking all this together it seems most likely to me that Roswell was a counter intelligence operation, on the other hand Mogul proponents suggest cover-ups for the project based on an accidental recovery but never explain further or even attempt to tie any of these historical loose ends together. What I'm suggesting ties everything together and doesn't require a crashed Alien spaceship or a Mogul balloon train to do so.

Edit: correct wrong link.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:02 pm

lost_shaman wrote:The Twining Memo from Sept. 23, 1947 shows weather balloons were not the objects of concern.

You mean this?

The Twining Memo
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/twining.htm

Due consideration must be given the following:-

(1) The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin - the product of some high security project not known to AC/AS-2 or this Command.

(2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.

(3) The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge.

Some genuine concern given the “mass hysteria” created by Arnold’s sighting does not a conspiracy make methinks. There’s no indication that anyone thought ET were involved and this pretty much proves that nothing of interest crashed in Roswell…

lost_shaman wrote:I don't believe any other local reports of RAWIN's being labeled Disc's after Ken Arnold's sighting and before Roswell have ever surfaced But more interesting is that these reports of RAWIN's being labeled as Disc's also occur after July 2nd when Twining ordered an investigation of the Phenomena by T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field.

However balloons were which suggests radar targets weren’t known to be a possible cause yet until people started turning them in and don’t you mean Sept. 23rd not July 2nd? (you used the correct date above)

http://www.roswellproof.com/otherballoon.html

“The following were some stories from several newspapers offering weather balloon explanations for UFO reports. Some of these stories were printed before the Roswell incident of July 8 and the military debunking campaign that followed.”

Tucson, Arizona - PALE BALLOONS MAY BE DISCS
San Diego, California - S. D. RESIDENTS IN DITHER OVER FLYING SAUCERS
--Weather Balloon Starts Rumors


http://www.roswellproof.com/balloon_crashes.html

“Several known Mogul-style ML-307 radar targets were recovered in various portions of the U.S. immediately preceding and following the Roswell incident crashed disk press release of July 8, 1947.”

Circleville, Ohio (2)
Bakersfield, California
Brawley, California
Oxford, Ohio
Greensburgh, New York
Tucson, Arizona
Adrian, Missouri


Oh, and let’s not forget…

Roswell, New Mexico

lost_shaman wrote:Taking all this together it seems most likely to me that Roswell was a counter intelligence operation...

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"

Turn the clock back to July of 1947 and it should become obvious that in context Roswell was the least of the Air Force’s problems at the time… it really was no different than any of the other crashed “flying saucer” stories in the press. It wasn’t until Stanton Friedman met Jesse Marcel Sr. some 30 years later that it became a “crashed alien spaceship”…

I think Marcel was “ripe for the picking”… no doubt he was somewhat suspicious of the official explanation of a simple “weather balloon” all along because he knew better. The problem is he didn’t have a need to know what it really was for…

Enter Friedman and Moore (who themselves appear to have been willing dupes of a larger con) with a “better” explanation for him and the promise of fame and fortune and voilà

[recall that Bob Pratt (himself a known associate of Jacques Vallée who subcscibed to the “Core Story” early on) at the National Enquirer, the first to publish an interview with Marcel, was offering $1,000,000 for proof of ET and to pay any Roswell “witnesses” that came forward after printing a copy of the now famous RDR article]


P.S. Thank you for that excellent post Gilles F. even if no one else will admit it... :)
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:The Twining Memo from Sept. 23, 1947 shows weather balloons were not the objects of concern.

You mean this?

The Twining Memo
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/twining.htm

Due consideration must be given the following:-

(1) The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin - the product of some high security project not known to AC/AS-2 or this Command.

(2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.

(3) The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge.

Some genuine concern given the “mass hysteria” created by Arnold’s sighting does not a conspiracy make methinks. There’s no indication that anyone thought ET were involved and this pretty much proves that nothing of interest crashed in Roswell…


I've never advocated that E.T. crashed at Roswell. I don't believe that at all, I'm arguing that "Roswell" was a counter intelligence operation directed at the Press and Public.




Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:I don't believe any other local reports of RAWIN's being labeled Disc's after Ken Arnold's sighting and before Roswell have ever surfaced But more interesting is that these reports of RAWIN's being labeled as Disc's also occur after July 2nd when Twining ordered an investigation of the Phenomena by T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field.

However balloons were which suggests radar targets weren’t known to be a possible cause yet until people started turning them in and don’t you mean Sept. 23rd not July 2nd? (you used the correct date above)


Both dates are correct AD they represent two different things.


http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/histechintel.htm

Through the end of the decade of the 1940s, intelligence efforts turned increasingly toward the emerging technological threat posed by the Russians. T-2 also opened an office in July 1947 for the study of unidentified flying objects (UFO), popularly known as "flying saucers." Initially called Project Sign (and redesignated Project Grudge in 1949), the UFO program brought T-2's successors their greatest public visibility. By the end of the decade, the Technical Intelligence Department (established in October 1947) began providing air technical intelligence services for the Air Staff's Director of Intelligence.



Access Denied wrote:http://www.roswellproof.com/otherballoon.html

“The following were some stories from several newspapers offering weather balloon explanations for UFO reports. Some of these stories were printed before the Roswell incident of July 8 and the military debunking campaign that followed.”

Tucson, Arizona - PALE BALLOONS MAY BE DISCS
San Diego, California - S. D. RESIDENTS IN DITHER OVER FLYING SAUCERS
--Weather Balloon Starts Rumors


http://www.roswellproof.com/balloon_crashes.html

“Several known Mogul-style ML-307 radar targets were recovered in various portions of the U.S. immediately preceding and following the Roswell incident crashed disk press release of July 8, 1947.”

Circleville, Ohio (2)
Bakersfield, California
Brawley, California
Oxford, Ohio
Greensburgh, New York
Tucson, Arizona
Adrian, Missouri


Oh, and let’s not forget…


What are you forgeting? Lot's of reports followed Roswell.


Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Taking all this together it seems most likely to me that Roswell was a counter intelligence operation...

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"

Turn the clock back to July of 1947 and it should become obvious that in context Roswell was the least of the Air Force’s problems at the time… it really was no different than any of the other crashed “flying saucer” stories in the press. It wasn’t until Stanton Friedman met Jesse Marcel Sr. some 30 years later that it became a “crashed alien spaceship”…


NO it was T-2's problem because Twining had ordered the investigation in July.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Gilles F. » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:06 pm

I'm arguing that "Roswell" was a counter intelligence operation directed at the Press and Public.


Dear Lost-Shaman,

If it was, why the "trickers" didn't use the mention by Brazel
some tape with flowers printed upon
?

And then presenting such a tape to "debunk" the Fying Saucers to the press and public ? "Your" counter intelligence trickers,thinkers and strateges are noobs :P They created an "hoax" but didn't use the details of their "hoax" which could "debunk" the FS masterfully.
:-k
What noobs...

Regards,

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:47 pm

lost_shaman wrote:NO it was T-2's problem because Twining had ordered the investigation in July.

What are you talking about? That's not true...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign

Sign was instigated following a recommendation from Lt. General Nathan F. Twining, then the head of Air Materiel Command. Just before this, Brig. Gen. George Schulgen, of the Army Air Forces air intelligence division, had completed a preliminary review of the many UFO reports—then called "flying discs" by military authorities—which had received considerable publicity following the Kenneth Arnold sighting of June 24, 1947. Schulgen's study, completed in late July 1947, concluded that the flying discs were real craft. Schulgen then asked Twining and his command, which included the intelligence and engineering divisions located at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base (then Wright Field), to carry out a more exhaustive review of the data.

The Twining Memo (in response to Schulgen’s request) is dated 23 Sep 47…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/twining.htm

The Schulgen Memo (in response to Twining) is dated 28 Oct 47 and states among other things…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/Schulgen.htm

“The first sightings in the U.S. were reported around the middle of May. The last reported sighting took place in Toronto, Canada, 14 September. The greatest activity in the U.S. was during the last week of June and the first week of July.”

“For the purpose of analysis and evaluation of the so-called "flying saucer" phenomenon, the object sighted is being assumed to be a manned aircraft, of Russian origin, and based on the perspective thinking and actual accomplishments of the Germans.”


And finally…

Twining’s suggestion was approved on December 30 by Major General Laurence C. Craigie, Director of Research and Development under the Deputy Chief of staff for Materiel at Headquarters U.S. Air Force. According to Craigie's directive, it would be the role of Sign to: “...collect, collate, evaluate and distribute to interested government agencies and contractors all information concerning sightings and phenomena in the atmosphere which can be construed to be of concern to the national security.” [3]

On January 22, 1948, Project Sign formally began its work as a branch of Air Technical Intelligence Center (ATIC) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, under the direction of Captain Robert R. Sneider.

You’re claiming a formal “counter-intelligence operation” was already in place (and that Roswell was a part of it) before a formal intelligence operation concerning “flying disks” even began!

Sorry, your “theory” is not based on any evidence.


P.S. It should be noted ETH proponents use a fake version of the Schulgen Memo…

The altered version was first exposed by Robert Todd, and most UFO authorities, including organizations like Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS), agree that is is a fake. But because of it's inclusion and endorsement in popular books such as Above Top Secret and Beyond Top Secret (both by Timothy Good) and the support of Stan Friedman, there are still many who think the faked copy is the genuine article.

Real: “For the purpose of analysis and evaluation of the so-called "flying saucer" phenomenon, the object sighted is being assumed to be a manned aircraft, of Russian origin, and based on the perspective thinking and actual accomplishments of the Germans.”

Fake: "... accomplishments of the Germans, it is the considered opinion of some elements that the object may in fact may represent an interplanetary craft of some kind."
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:18 pm

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:NO it was T-2's problem because Twining had ordered the investigation in July.

What are you talking about? That's not true...


Yes, it is true.

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... hintel.htm

Through the end of the decade of the 1940s, intelligence efforts turned increasingly toward the emerging technological threat posed by the Russians. T-2 also opened an office in July 1947 for the study of unidentified flying objects (UFO), popularly known as "flying saucers." Initially called Project Sign (and redesignated Project Grudge in 1949), the UFO program brought T-2's successors their greatest public visibility. By the end of the decade, the Technical Intelligence Department (established in October 1947) began providing air technical intelligence services for the Air Staff's Director of Intelligence.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:06 am

[sigh]

Here we go again…

lost_shaman wrote:
Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:NO it was T-2's problem because Twining had ordered the investigation in July.

What are you talking about? That's not true...

Yes, it is true.

No, it’s not. Your source for this assertion says nothing about Twining and does not give a date...

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... hintel.htm

Through the end of the decade of the 1940s, intelligence efforts turned increasingly toward the emerging technological threat posed by the Russians. T-2 also opened an office in July 1947 for the study of unidentified flying objects (UFO), popularly known as "flying saucers." Initially called Project Sign (and redesignated Project Grudge in 1949), the UFO program brought T-2's successors their greatest public visibility. By the end of the decade, the Technical Intelligence Department (established in October 1947) began providing air technical intelligence services for the Air Staff's Director of Intelligence.

According to the official record as outlined by noted UFO researcher Jan Aldrich here…

The Search For Records On Roswell
http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm

On or before the 2nd of July 1947, Dave Johnson, the aviation editor of the Boise, Idaho, Statesman newspaper, contacted Lieutenant General Nathan F. Twining, Commanding General of AMC, concerning the flying disc sightings. General Twining sent a routing slip dated 2 July to General Brentnall, Deputy Commanding General, T-3, Engineering saying that AMC should investigate flying discs. Included was a sheet with short summaries of the sightings of Richard Rankin, Kenneth Arnold and a reference to a sighting by Forest Service Fire Watch personnel. On the 3rd of July, newspaper and wire service stories originating in Boise under David Johnson's byline said that AMC was investigating flying saucer reports and witnesses should contact Wright Field with any information.

That’s T-3 Engineering, not T-2 Intelligence.

Note also the following…

As explained in an earlier letter in 1946 from General Curtis LeMay, Assistant Chief of Staff for Research and Development, AMC was able to initiate projects without approval from LeMay or higher authorities. However, during the next budget request, the interim project had to be approved for funding. General Twining was authorized on his own authority, then, to initiate a "flying disc" investigation, and this apparently he did with no relation to the Roswell incident.

This was an informal “project” with no funding yet and as noted in the previous paragraph, was only based on three sightings, none of which had anything to do with weather balloons or radar targets that were to become the most likely source of the wave of sightings to follow in the coming weeks.

[no doubt as a result of Johnson's July 3rd article encouraging people to report anything they saw to Wright Field]

Further confirmation of the fact that there's no evidence T-2 Intelligence was involved at that point (and that the paragraph you cited is misleading about when Project SIGN started too) is as follows…

There were a few "flying discs" files in the Research and Developmen Files, Wright-Paterson Air Force Base, Records Group 342 at the National Archives. While these are interesting and contain the Twining information discussed above, the records are not at all comprehensive. A conversation with the AFMC historians about the current whereabouts of other T-3 administrative documents revealed few leads. However, there may be important letters sent to AMC which were directed to Brigadier General Brentnall for evaluation. Letters from the public were indeed sent to General Brentnall for answer. This was still taking place on the 17th of July, 1947. A copy of the famous Twining letter found in the Air Adjutant General files has this additional information hand written after General Twining's signature:

This letter was coordinated by:
Col. Moore Ch. Aircraft Lab
Mr. A. Dicky Ch. Propeller Lab
Gen. D. L. Putt Engr. Div
Col. Minty Ch. Power Plant Lab
Gen. Brentnall T-3

(Records Group 18, Entry 1D, Decimal File 0000, Miscellaneous)

It should be noted that none of the individuals listed were from T-2, Technical Intelligence. To what extent was T-3 involved in the early UFO investigation? One further piece of information: Col. Marcellus Duffy, stationed at Wright Field, was asked to examine material described as a flying saucer in the press. The items were flown to Wright Field and taken to his house for identification. Col. Duffy identified the material as "weather equipment" but did not recall much more about the incident as he felt it unimportant. (Saler, Ziegler, Moore, UFO Crash At Roswell, 1997, page 178.) If the material shown to Col. Duffy came from T-2, why is there nothing on file? Perhaps because T-3 or the Headquarters, AMC, were involved.

The material in question is of course is the famous Roswell “debris” and no doubt this is the source of the “Hangar 18” myth.

[this has also been confirmed in an interview with (then) Capt. Trakowski, Duffy’s successor as head of Project MOGUL, and is documented in the Air Force’s 1994 report on Roswell]

And finally...

It is expected that somewhere in the command files there would be documents stating if and when the investigation of flying discs was handed off to T-2, Technical Intelligence, and possibly any material received involving the Roswell incident.

Yet none have ever been found.

Now if you’re still not convinced of how informal this all was, take a look at the routing slip that is the only “evidence” in existence that Twining “ordered” a “investigation" on July 2nd…

Twining to Brentnall Routing Slip - July 2, 1947
http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rslip.htm

It says…

“This is the UFO report I was talking to you about the phone”

I repeat…

Access Denied wrote:You’re claiming a formal “counter-intelligence operation” was already in place (and that Roswell was a part of it) before a formal intelligence operation concerning “flying disks” even began!

Sorry, your “theory” is not based on any evidence.

Now if you still want to argue about this, I suggest you do your homework first and contact the same AFMC historians that Aldrich did and let us know if you find any evidence that T-2 Intelligence was involved before, during, or immediately after (had anything at all to do with) Roswell…

[good luck... many conspiracy “theorists” have tried, none have ever succeeded]

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:54 am

Access Denied wrote:[sigh]

Here we go again…

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:NO it was T-2's problem because Twining had ordered the investigation in July.

What are you talking about? That's not true...


No, it’s not. Your source for this assertion says nothing about Twining and does not give a date...

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... hintel.htm

Through the end of the decade of the 1940s, intelligence efforts turned increasingly toward the emerging technological threat posed by the Russians. T-2 also opened an office in July 1947 for the study of unidentified flying objects (UFO), popularly known as "flying saucers." Initially called Project Sign (and redesignated Project Grudge in 1949), the UFO program brought T-2's successors their greatest public visibility. By the end of the decade, the Technical Intelligence Department (established in October 1947) began providing air technical intelligence services for the Air Staff's Director of Intelligence.

According to the official record as outlined by noted UFO researcher Jan Aldrich here…

The Search For Records On Roswell
http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm

On or before the 2nd of July 1947, Dave Johnson, the aviation editor of the Boise, Idaho, Statesman newspaper, contacted Lieutenant General Nathan F. Twining, Commanding General of AMC, concerning the flying disc sightings. General Twining sent a routing slip dated 2 July to General Brentnall, Deputy Commanding General, T-3, Engineering saying that AMC should investigate flying discs. Included was a sheet with short summaries of the sightings of Richard Rankin, Kenneth Arnold and a reference to a sighting by Forest Service Fire Watch personnel. On the 3rd of July, newspaper and wire service stories originating in Boise under David Johnson's byline said that AMC was investigating flying saucer reports and witnesses should contact Wright Field with any information.

That’s T-3 Engineering, not T-2 Intelligence.


Yes, here we go again...

Just because Twining sent something to Brentnall on July 2nd doesn't mean he didn't send orders to T-2. In fact that he did is very likely. Brentnall had no authority to order an investigation of "Flying Saucers" by T-2, only Twining would have that authority.


Access Denied wrote:Note also the following…

As explained in an earlier letter in 1946 from General Curtis LeMay, Assistant Chief of Staff for Research and Development, AMC was able to initiate projects without approval from LeMay or higher authorities. However, during the next budget request, the interim project had to be approved for funding. General Twining was authorized on his own authority, then, to initiate a "flying disc" investigation, and this apparently he did with no relation to the Roswell incident.

This was an informal “project” with no funding yet and as noted in the previous paragraph, was only based on three sightings, none of which had anything to do with weather balloons or radar targets that were to become the most likely source of the wave of sightings to follow in the coming weeks.


Where to start...

Where else would a counter inteligence operation originate against the Press? An informal “project” with no funding perhaps?


Access Denied wrote:[no doubt as a result of Johnson's July 3rd article encouraging people to report anything they saw to Wright Field]


This just as easily could show Wright Field had good Press connections as the counter intelligence operation I've suggested must imply.

Access Denied wrote:Further confirmation of the fact that there's no evidence T-2 Intelligence was involved at that point (and that the paragraph you cited is misleading about when Project SIGN started too) is as follows…

[snip quote]l_s

The material in question is of course is the famous Roswell “debris” and no doubt this is the source of the “Hangar 18” myth.


This is just commentary and opinion based on the supposed phone call Trawkowski said he recieved from Duffy.

Another thing being neglected is the idea that Roswell was a "cover" for the MOGUL Project that was being ran out of Wright Field. We know Ramey was involved because Press reports tell us so and Photographs show a RAWIN target in his office but there is no de-classified documents that say Ramey was directed to "cover" for the MOGUL Project!



Access Denied wrote:[this has also been confirmed in an interview with (then) Capt. Trakowski, Duffy’s successor as head of Project MOGUL, and is documented in the Air Force’s 1994 report on Roswell]

And finally...

It is expected that somewhere in the command files there would be documents stating if and when the investigation of flying discs was handed off to T-2, Technical Intelligence, and possibly any material received involving the Roswell incident.

Yet none have ever been found.



The same can be said of Ramey's involvment. Do you think you know something I don't?


Access Denied wrote:Now if you’re still not convinced of how informal this all was, take a look at the routing slip that is the only “evidence” in existence that Twining “ordered” a “investigation" on July 2nd…


... And the "evidence" in the form of documents that Ramey "covered" for MOGUL is non-existent too. Why don't you discuss how informal that would be?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:42 am

First of all, my apologies for this lengthy post which I suppose, considering how much of my research and opinion it brings together, should really be presented in the form of an article or blog posting…

lost_shaman wrote:Yes, here we go again...

Just because Twining sent something to Brentnall on July 2nd doesn't mean he didn't send orders to T-2. In fact that he did is very likely.

That’s purely unfounded speculation on your part and demonstrates a profound ignorance of the existing mission of T-2 Intelligence.

lost_shaman wrote:Brentnall had no authority to order an investigation of "Flying Saucers" by T-2, only Twining would have that authority.

That is correct however Twining did not ask the SECAF to approve funding for a formal investigation into UFOs until September 23rd, 1947 and that was at Gen. Schulgen’s request. There is no evidence that Twining “ordered” Schulgen [Correction: McCoy] (T-2) or Brentnall (T-3) to perform an “investigation” before that. If he had, I see no reason to “cover it up” after the fact… if anything you should be pleased they took the reports seriously enough to analyze them.

lost_shaman wrote:Where to start...

Where else would a counter inteligence operation originate against the Press? An informal “project” with no funding perhaps?

You appear to have a very naïve understanding of the military and how it operates that's being fueled by paranoia and misinformation promoted by certain UFO “researchers”.

lost_shaman wrote:This is just commentary and opinion based on the supposed phone call Trawkowski said he recieved from Duffy.

No, it’s not. From the infamous (and often obfuscated) FBI Telex…

FBI DALLAS 7-8-47 6-17 PM
DIRECTOR AND SAC, CINCINNATI URGENT

FLYING DISC, INFORMATION CONCERNING. [REDACTED] HEADQUARTERS EIGHT AIR FORCE, TELEPHONICALLY ADVISED THIS OFFICE THAT AN OBJECT PURPORTING TO BE A FLYING DISC WAS RE COVERED NEAR ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO, THIS DATE. THE DISC IS HEXAGONAL IN SHAPE AND WAS SUSPENDED FROM A BALLOON BY CABLE, WHICH BALLOON WAS APPROXIMATELY TWENTY FEET IN DIAMETER. [REDACTED] FURTHER ADVISED THAT THE OBJECT FOUND RESEMBLES A HIGH ALTITUDE WEATHER BALLOON WITH A RADAR REFLECTOR, BUT THAT TELEPHONIC CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEIR OFFICE AND WRIGHT FIELD HAD NOT [REDACTED] BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF. DISK AND BALLOON BEING TRANSPORTED TO WRIGHT FIELD BY SPECIAL PLANE FOR EXAMINATION. INFORMATION PROVIDED THIS OFFICE BECAUSE OF NATIONAL INTEREST IN CASE AND FACT THAT NATIONAL BROADCASTING COMPANY, ASSOCIATED PRESS, AND OTHERS ATTEMPTING TO BREAK STORY OF LOCATION OF DISC TODAY. [REDACTED] ADVISED WOULD REQUEST WRIGHT FIELD TO ADVISE CINCINNATI OFFICE RESULTS OF EXAMINATION. NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION BEING CONDUCTED.

Who other than Duffy at Wright Field would suspect it wasn’t simply a “high altitude weather balloon” given Project MOGUL was compartmentalized and he was the head of it?

lost_shaman wrote:The same can be said of Ramey's involvment. Do you think you know something I don't?

Yes. Among other things you keep ignoring the reason why Ramey (Commander of the 8th Air Force) was involved in the first place… beginning with the fact Col. Blanchard (Commander of the 509th at Roswell AAF) went on leave the same day the story broke.

[recall that the original "press release" stated "according to information released by the department, over authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer" not Blanchard]

lost_shaman wrote:... And the "evidence" in the form of documents that Ramey "covered" for MOGUL is non-existent too. Why don't you discuss how informal that would be?

I have…

Roswell explained? Potential NEW evidence!

That said, the only significant event involving Army CIC (the Counter Intelligence Corps, comparable to today’s AFOSI, not to be confused with T-2 Intelligence which was charged with analyzing foreign capabilities) that I can see is when Kenneth Arnold was interviewed (along with his friend and fellow pilot Richard Rankine who reported a similar sighting) by Lt. Frank Brown and Capt. William Davidson from Hamilton Field, California on July 12, 1947 in conjunction with his written statement. Whether or not this meeting was at Arnold’s request I do not know for sure but it should be noted both of these officers were killed in a bizarre plane crash during their “investigation” (which was at Arnold’s request, which in turn was at Ray Palmer’s request) of the Maury Island incident (hoax) that was already being investigated by the FBI…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_incident

Knowledge of these claims more than anything else is what I suspect initially prompted T-2 Intelligence (Schulgen, independently of Twining) to begin conducting their own “study” (completed in late July) of UFO reports. Obviously something very “fishy” was going on and no, it had nothing to do with Roswell.

As I pointed out in another thread, Kenneth Arnold was a conspiracy “theorist” himself and had claimed to see UFOs before his famous sighting and his association with Ray Palmer (editor of the pulp science fiction rag Amazing Stories among others) should be raising a huge red flag for anyone interested in the genesis of the “flying saucer” myth…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_A._Palmer

Palmer was also known for his support of the long running and controversial Shaver Mystery stories, based around a series of stories by Richard S. Shaver. Palmer's support of the truth of Shaver's stories (which maintained that the world is dominated by insane inhabitants of the hollow earth), was controversial in the science fiction community. It is unclear whether Palmer believed in the literal truth of the Shaver stories, or if he was using the standpoint of his own belief to promote the concept to his readership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaver_Mystery

Now, with that in mind, some excerpts from the FBI files others may find interesting, if not illuminating, if they’ve never seen them before…

THE FBI AND UFOS
Flying Flapjacks, Saucers, and Saw Blades
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/april10/ufos_040610.html

Image
In late July 1947, a woman in Illinois reported to the FBI office in Springfield that she found the flying disc pictured above in her front yard. The Springfield special agent in charge informed FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover that "the alleged flying disc was obtained and it is apparently the concoction of some of the juveniles in the area. It is an old wooden platter, which has assembled on it a silver plate, a spark plug, a timer, and some old brass tubing. ... No doubt this was someone's idea of a prank."

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf (originals)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25706/25706.txt (transcripts)

In chronological order…

[note that on June 28 Arnold reportedly said “This whole thing has gotten out of hand. I want to talk to the FBI or someone.” to the press]

TO: D. M. LADD DATE: 7/10/47
FROM: E. G. Fitch
SUBJECT: FLYING DISKS

At request of Brigadier General George F. Schulgen, Chief of the Requirements Intelligence Branch of Army Air Corps Intelligence, Special Agent [redacted] discussed the above captioned matter with him on July 9, 1947. General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that the Air Corps has taken the attitude that every effort must be undertaken in order to run down and ascertain whether or not the flying disks are a fact and, if so, to learn all about them. According to General Schulgen, the Air Corps Intelligence are utilizing all of their scientists in order to ascertain whether or not such a phenomenon could in fact occur. He stated that this research is being conducted with the thought that the flying objects might be a celestial phenomenon and with the view that they might be a foreign body mechanically devised and controlled.

General Schulgen also indicated to [redacted] that all Air Corps installations have been alerted to run out each reported sighting to obtain all possible data to assist in this research project. In passing, General Schulgen stated that an Air Corps pilot who believed that he saw one of these objects was thoroughly interrogated by General Schulgen and scientists, as well as a psychologist, and the pilot was adamant in his claim that he saw a flying disk.

General Schulgen advised [redacted] that the possibility exists that the first reported sightings of the so-called flying disks were fallacious and prompted by individuals seeking personal publicity, or were reported for political reasons. He stated that if this was so, subsequent sightings might be the result of a mass hysteria. He pointed out that the thought exists that the first reported sightings might have been by individuals of Communist sympathies with the view to causing hysteria and fear of a secret Russian weapon.

General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that he is desirous of having all the angles covered in this matter. He stated that reports of his scientists and findings of the various Air Corps installations will be available in his office. He advised that to complete the picture he desired the assistance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in locating and questioning the individuals who first sighted the so-called flying disks in order to ascertain whether or not they are sincere in their statements that they saw these disks, or whether their statements were prompted by personal desire for publicity or political reasons. General Schulgen assured [redacted] that there are no War Department or Navy Department research projects presently being conducted which could in any way be tied up with the flying disks. General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that if the Bureau would cooperate with him in this matter, he would offer all the facilities of his office as to results obtained in the effort to identify and run down this matter.

[redacted] advised General Schulgen that his request would be made known to the Bureau and an answer made available to him as soon as possible.

[redacted] also discussed this matter with [redacted] of [redacted]. [redacted] indicated that it was his attitude that inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments, the matter is of interest to the FBI. He stated that he was of the opinion that the Bureau, if at all possible, should accede to General Schulgen's request.

ADDENDUM

I would recommend that we advise the Army that the Bureau does not believe it should go into these investigations, it being noted that a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks. It is not believed that the Bureau would accomplish anything by going into these investigations.

DML

[First Handwritten Note]

I think we should do this.
7-15

[Second Handwritten Note]

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the La. case the Army grabbed it & would not let us have it for cursory examination.
H.

That last (and often obfuscated) note is of course from Hoover. Translation: Inter-agency rivalry rears it’s ugly head. It would appear Schulgen suspected the FBI was being less than forthcoming about what they knew about Kenneth Arnold and his associations from their investigation of the Maury Island incident that allegedly occurred on July [Correction: June] 21st, three days before Arnold’s alleged sighting.

Now here’s the follow up…

TO: D. M. LADD DATE: 7/24/47
FROM: E. G. Fitch
SUBJECT: FLYING DISCS

Reference is made to my memorandum to you in the above captioned matter dated July 10, 1947, indicating that Brigadier General George F. Schulgen of the Army Air Corps Intelligence had requested that the Bureau cooperate with the Army Air Corps intelligence in connection with the above captioned matter. The Director noted on the referenced memorandum, "I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the La. case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination."

This is to advise that Special Agent [redacted] has recontacted General Schulgen and advised him in connection with the Director's notation. General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that he desired to assure Mr. Hoover of complete cooperation in this matter and stated that he would issue instructions to the field directing that all cooperation be furnished to the FBI and that all discs recovered be made available for the examination by the FBI Agents. General Schulgen pointed out to [redacted] that he will from time to time make the results of the studies of his scientists available to the Bureau for the assistance of the FBI Field Offices. General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that there has been a decrease in the reported sightings of the discs which might be because of the fact that it has lost much of its publicity value. He indicated, however, that he believed it necessary to follow this matter through to determine as near as possible if discs were in fact seen and to determine their origin.

General Schulgen inquired of [redacted] the method by which the Bureau would make the information obtained from the Bureau's inquiries, known to the Air Corps, in the Field as well as at the War Department level. Mr. [redacted] pointed out to General Schulgen that the best procedure appeared to be through the regular established channels. It was pointed out to General Schulgen that the Bureau Field Offices maintain close liaison with the Intelligence Divisions of the various Armies as well as close liaison with the Intelligence Division of the War Department. General Schulgen indicated that he would be satisfied to receive information through this means.

General Schulgen indicated to [redacted] that he believed that there was a possibility that this entire matter might have been started by subversive individuals for the purpose of creating a mass hysteria. He suggested that the Bureau keep this in mind in any interviews conducted regarding reported sightings. General Schulgen stated to [redacted] that he would make available to the Bureau all information in the possession of the Air Corps regarding the sightings which were first reported so that the Bureau could conduct some investigation regarding these individuals to ascertain their motives for reporting that they had observed flying discs. When General Schulgen makes the information available regarding these individuals, it will be promptly brought to your attention.

Armed with the “inside scoop” the MIB officially opens for business…

(B) FLYING DISCS--The Bureau, at the request of the Army Air Forces Intelligence, has agreed to cooperate in the investigation of flying discs. The Air Forces have confidentially advised that it is possible to release three or more discs in odd numbers, attached together by a wire, from an airplane in high altitudes and that these discs would obtain tremendous speed in their descent and would descend to the earth in an arc. The Army Air Forces Intelligence has also indicated some concern that the reported sightings might have been made by subversive individuals for the purpose of creating a mass hysteria.

_______________________________

7-30-47
BUREAU BULLETIN No. 42
Series 1947

You should investigate each instance which is brought to your attention of a sighting of a flying disc in order to ascertain whether or not it is a bona fide sighting, an imaginary one or a prank. You should also bear in mind that individuals might report seeing flying discs for various reasons. It is conceivable that an individual might be desirous of seeking personal publicity, causing hysteria, or playing a prank.

The Bureau should be notified immediately by teletype of all reported sightings and the results of your inquiries. In instances where the report appears to have merit, the teletype should be followed by a letter to the Bureau containing in detail the results of your inquiries. The Army Air Forces have assured the Bureau complete cooperating in these matters and in any instances where they fail to make information available to you or make the recovered discs available for your examination, it should promptly be brought to the attention of the Bureau.

Any information you develop in connection with these discs should be promptly brought to the attention of the Army through your usual liaison channels.

Two days later on August 1st, 1947, disaster strikes…

TO: D. M. LADD DATE: August 6, 1947
FROM: [redacted]
SUBJECT: FLYING SAUCERS

Special Agent [redacted] of the Liaison Section contacted Lieutenant Colonel [redacted], Army Air Forces Intelligence, inquiring about an article which appeared in the West Coast newspapers recently stating in substance that an airplane carrying recovered flying saucers crashed in route from Portland, Oregon, to Los Angeles, California.

[redacted] advised [redacted] that the only information that has been received by Headquarters of the Army Air Forces is that a CIC Agent of the 4th Air Forces Headquarters, Hamilton Field, San Francisco, was killed in an airplane crash. The Headquarters of the Air Forces have been advised that he was on a top secret mission. [redacted] indicated that he was under the impression that the CIC Agent was either on route to or from an interview with [redacted] who is one of the individuals who first saw one of the flying saucers.

[redacted] stated that the Air Forces have no additional information and will receive none until the report is received from the 4th Air Forces. [redacted] suggested that the San Francisco Field Office contact Colonel [redacted] Headquarters 4th Air Forces, Hamilton Field, San Francisco, who undoubtedly would be able to furnish the details regarding this matter which are at this time unknown by the Headquarters of the Air Forces. [redacted] pointed out to [redacted], however, that it was his belief that no flying saucers have been recovered but that it was merely an attempt to reinterview an individual who previously had reported seeing one of the flying saucers.

Translation: SNAFU

FROM: FBI SEATTLE DATE: 8-14-47
TO: DIRECTOR
SUBJECT: FLYING DISCS SIGHTED BY [redacted], TACOMA.

PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT [redacted] DID NOT ADMIT TO [redacted] THAT HIS STORY WAS A HOAX BUT ONLY STATED THAT IF QUESTIONED BY AUTHORITIES HE WAS GOING TO SAY IT WAS A HOAX BECAUSE HE DID NOT WANT ANY FURTHER TROUBLE OVER THE MATTER. COMPLETE REPORT NOW EN ROUTE TO BUREAU AMSD, WHICH INDICATES PROBABLY [redacted] MADE THE ANONYMOUS PHONE CALL IN THE HOPE OF BUILDING UP THEIR STORY THROUGH PUBLICITY TO A POINT WHERE THEY COULD MAKE A PROFITABLE DEAL WITH FANTASY MAGAZINE, CHICAGO ILLINOIS. [redacted] WILL NOT BE REINTERVIEWED UNLESS ADVISED TO THE CONTRARY BY THE BUREAU.

Guess who was behind Fantasy magazine?

"To go further, if Mr. Arnold can write a report of the character that he did while not having seen the objects that he claimed he saw, it is the opinion of the interviewer that Mr. Arnold is in the wrong business, that he should be writing Buck Rogers fiction."
- FRANK M. BROWN. S/A CIC 4TH AF

[three weeks before his death]

Image
The Truth About The Flying Saucers by Kenneth Arnold

UFOlogists would like you to believe the modern UFO phenomena began on July [Correction: June] 24th, 1947 with Kenneth Arnold’s alleged sighting when in reality it began in three days earlier with a HOAX.

I wonder why?
Last edited by Access Denied on Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: correct typo in third paragraph and month in two places
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:31 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Yes, here we go again...

Just because Twining sent something to Brentnall on July 2nd doesn't mean he didn't send orders to T-2. In fact that he did is very likely.

That’s purely unfounded speculation on your part and demonstrates a profound ignorance of the existing mission of T-2 Intelligence.

lost_shaman wrote:Brentnall had no authority to order an investigation of "Flying Saucers" by T-2, only Twining would have that authority.

That is correct however Twining did not ask the SECAF to approve funding for a formal investigation into UFOs until September 23rd, 1947 and that was at Gen. Schulgen’s request. There is no evidence that Twining “ordered” Schulgen (T-2) or Brentnall (T-3) to perform an “investigation” before that. If he had, I see no reason to “cover it up” after the fact… if anything you should be pleased they took the reports seriously enough to analyze them.


No wonder you are confused, Brig. Gen. Schulgen isn't associated with T-2 he worked under Gen. George McDonald, director of intelligence for Chief of Staff Gen. Spaatz, at the Pentagon. His, and Lt. Col. George D. Garrett's, investigation and that of T-2's were seperate investigations. It was under Lt. Gen. Twining's authority that Col. Howard M. McCoy over T-2 began investigating in early July 1947.

The rest of your post is basically dillusion based on your confusion that Schulgen is with T-2, which is totally bogus and therfore I'm not responding to it.

What I will point out is that Dave Johnson's July 3rd article quoted Twining saying that AMC was investigating. This is compatible with the timeline I've suggested.

You may be confused because Schulgen did order McCoy (T-2) to send a team to investigate Harmon Field, Newfoundland at the end of July and report directly back to the Pentagon. By this time McCoy (T-2) under Twining's authority had been involved in it's own investigation for weeks.

What I've suggested can't make sense to you if and when you are confusing Schulgen's investigation with T-2's investigation.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:56 am

lost_shaman wrote:No wonder you are confused, Brig. Gen. Schulgen isn't associated with T-2 he worked under Gen. George McDonald, director of intelligence for Chief of Staff Gen. Spaatz, at the Pentagon.

That is correct, my mistake associating him with T-2 directly in that paragraph when he was actually over it. However, that doesn’t change anything in my post…

lost_shaman wrote:His, and Lt. Col. George D. Garrett's, investigation and that of T-2's were seperate investigations. It was under Lt. Gen. Twining's authority that Col. Howard M. McCoy over T-2 began investigating in early July 1947.

Present your evidence or retract the claim.

lost_shaman wrote:The rest of your post is basically dillusion based on your confusion that Schulgen is with T-2, which is totally bogus and therfore I'm not responding to it.

Why I am not surprised?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:11 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:This is just commentary and opinion based on the supposed phone call Trawkowski said he recieved from Duffy.

No, it’s not. From the infamous (and often obfuscated) FBI Telex…

FBI DALLAS 7-8-47 6-17 PM
DIRECTOR AND SAC, CINCINNATI URGENT

FLYING DISC, INFORMATION CONCERNING. [REDACTED] HEADQUARTERS EIGHT AIR FORCE, TELEPHONICALLY ADVISED THIS OFFICE THAT AN OBJECT PURPORTING TO BE A FLYING DISC WAS RE COVERED NEAR ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO, THIS DATE. THE DISC IS HEXAGONAL IN SHAPE AND WAS SUSPENDED FROM A BALLOON BY CABLE, WHICH BALLOON WAS APPROXIMATELY TWENTY FEET IN DIAMETER. [REDACTED] FURTHER ADVISED THAT THE OBJECT FOUND RESEMBLES A HIGH ALTITUDE WEATHER BALLOON WITH A RADAR REFLECTOR, BUT THAT TELEPHONIC CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEIR OFFICE AND WRIGHT FIELD HAD NOT [REDACTED] BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF. DISK AND BALLOON BEING TRANSPORTED TO WRIGHT FIELD BY SPECIAL PLANE FOR EXAMINATION. INFORMATION PROVIDED THIS OFFICE BECAUSE OF NATIONAL INTEREST IN CASE AND FACT THAT NATIONAL BROADCASTING COMPANY, ASSOCIATED PRESS, AND OTHERS ATTEMPTING TO BREAK STORY OF LOCATION OF DISC TODAY. [REDACTED] ADVISED WOULD REQUEST WRIGHT FIELD TO ADVISE CINCINNATI OFFICE RESULTS OF EXAMINATION. NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION BEING CONDUCTED.

Who other than Duffy at Wright Field would suspect it wasn’t simply a “high altitude weather balloon” given Project MOGUL was compartmentalized and he was the head of it?



At 6:17 pm, Duffy had not seen anything and this FBI memo only shows "TELEPHONIC CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEIR OFFICE AND WRIGHT FIELD[/u] HAD NOT [REDACTED] BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF."

What "belief", the "belief" that a RADAR target was responsible. This makes sense if T-2 had suggested the RADAR target angle from the begining.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:29 am

lost_shaman wrote:What "belief", the "belief" that a RADAR target was responsible.

No, it was the “belief” of General Ramey’s office that it was a "high altitude weather balloon" that wasn't "borne out" when in reality it was part of a TOP SECRET experimental device for “spying” on Russian nuclear tests.

This makes sense if T-2 had suggested the RADAR target angle from the begining.

Duffy and Project MOGUL was T-3 and it was Warrant Office Irving Newton (the weather officer on duty at Fort Worth AAF) who identified it as a weather balloon and RAWIN target.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:35 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:No wonder you are confused, Brig. Gen. Schulgen isn't associated with T-2 he worked under Gen. George McDonald, director of intelligence for Chief of Staff Gen. Spaatz, at the Pentagon.

That is correct, my mistake associating him with T-2 directly in that paragraph when he was actually over it. However, that doesn’t change anything in my post…


Yes it does... How could it not?


Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:His, and Lt. Col. George D. Garrett's, investigation and that of T-2's were seperate investigations. It was under Lt. Gen. Twining's authority that Col. Howard M. McCoy over T-2 began investigating in early July 1947.

Present your evidence or retract the claim.


I'm not retracting a single word quoted above because every word of it is true. You admitted you were wrong so you retract what you said!
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:39 am

lost_shaman wrote:Yes it does... How could it not?

Because you still have not presented any evidence to back up your claim that Gen. Twining “ordered” T-2 Intelligence to conduct an “investigation” (never mind a “counter intelligence operation” as you originally claimed) as opposed to Gen. Shulgen simply enlisting their help (and T-3) with his (preliminary) investigation in his (superior) role at the (Army) Air Force Office of Intelligence.

(which I have presented considerable evidence for beginning with this post)

lost_shaman wrote:I'm not retracting a single word quoted above because every word of it is true. You admitted you were wrong so you retract what you said!

Quit trying to change the subject and to derail this thread. Again, it doesn't change anything so there's nothing to retract. Present your evidence now to back up your claim or retract it before posting anything else.

(this is third time I've asked you)
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