Roswellian Soothsayer?

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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:12 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Yes it does... How could it not?

Because you still have not presented any evidence to back up your claim that Gen. Twining “ordered” T-2 Intelligence to conduct an “investigation” (never mind a “counter intelligence operation” as you originally claimed) as opposed to Gen. Shulgen simply enlisting their help (and T-3) with his (preliminary) investigation in his (superior) role at the (Army) Air Force Office of Intelligence.

(which I have presented considerable evidence for beginning with this post)


Let me quote you AD,...

You quoted Aldrich,...

"General Twining was authorized on his own authority, then, to initiate a "flying disc" investigation, and this apparently he did with no relation to the Roswell incident."

I only disagree that the last statement about "no relation to the Roswell incident", and suggest that this is likely not true. I'm suggesting that T-2's investigation may be related.

If you disagree with Aldrich, agrue with him.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:41 pm

lost_shaman wrote:Let me quote you AD,...

You quoted Aldrich,...

"General Twining was authorized on his own authority, then, to initiate a "flying disc" investigation, and this apparently he did with no relation to the Roswell incident."

I only disagree that the last statement about "no relation to the Roswell incident", and suggest that this is likely not true. I'm suggesting that T-2's investigation may be related.

If you disagree with Aldrich, agrue with him.

Amazing! You took that quote completely out of context and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out Aldrich discovered this alleged (by Dave Johnston, a reporter) “investigation” by AMC evidently only involved T-3 Engineering, not T-2 Intelligence, and even then this “apparent” investigation that Twining “ordered” was based solely on a routing slip concerning three sightings (Kenneth Arnold's, Richard Rankin’s, and two Forest Ranger’s) that Twining sent Brentnall of T-3 on July 2nd (presumably after talking to Johnston) that said…

“This is the UFO report I was talking to you about the phone”

ETA: See PROJECT 1947 - General Brentnall AMC - July, 1947 for more reports forwarded to T-3 Engineering.

Even if T-2 Intelligence was involved with Shulgen's preliminary study at some point they certainly wouldn’t be involved in a “counter intelligence operation” as that would be the responsibility of the CIC. There were no intelligence “agents” in T-2, only S&T analysts…

NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE INTELLIGENCE CENTER HISTORY
http://www.afisr.af.mil/shared/media/do ... 11-050.pdf

After the war ended in Europe, Wright Field’s Colonel Harold E. Watson and a group of handpicked pilots gathered German aircraft from the battlefield and sent or flew them back to Air Materiel Command’s T-2 Intelligence Department at Wright Field and Freeman Field, Indiana for study. Operation Paperclip, a follow-on project, brought over 200 German scientists and technicians to Wright Field to work with their American counterparts. Some of the scientists eventually worked in the Wright Field laboratories.

Under the direction of Colonel Howard McCoy, the Army also delivered a large amount of captured documents to Wright Field. By the end of 1947, Wright Field personnel had processed over 1,500 tons of documents, adding over 100,000 new technical terms to the English language. The technical knowledge gained revolutionized American industry. Besides the aviation-related advances, new designs for vacuum tubes, the development of magnetic tapes, night vision devices, improvements in liquid and solid fuels, and advances in textiles, drugs, and food preservation were made available to American manufacturers.

The establishment of Air Materiel Command’s T-2 Intelligence at Wright Field in July 1945 began the move toward a balanced integration of engineering and intelligence. T-2 was responsible for the creation of air intelligence; identifying foreign aircraft and related equipment needed for study; receiving, translating, and distributing foreign language documents; and distributing air intelligence products. Because of the efforts of Colonel Watson and many others, by decade’s end Air Materiel Command’s intelligence mission focused increasingly on the emerging Russian technological threat.

Why can’t you just admit you’re wrong and have no evidence to support your ridiculous claim that Roswell was a “counter intelligence operation”?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:13 am

Access Denied wrote:Amazing! You took that quote completely out of context and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out Aldrich discovered this alleged (by Dave Johnston, a reporter) “investigation” by AMC evidently only involved T-3 Engineering, not T-2 Intelligence, and even then this “apparent” investigation that Twining “ordered” was based solely on a routing slip concerning three sightings (Kenneth Arnold's, Richard Rankin’s, and two Forest Ranger’s) that Twining sent Brentnall of T-3 on July 2nd (presumably after talking to Johnston) that said…

“This is the UFO report I was talking to you about the phone”


That's not what Aldrich is saying in my opinion. He's not suggesting that T-2 was not involved in AMC's investigation. Later down the page he discusses the fact that the T-2 records for 1947 were lost in the 1973 fire...

12. National Air Intelligence Center (NAIC). During the Roswell incident, this organization was called T-2, Intelligence, a component of the AMC. In Attachment 6 of The Roswell Report is a three page summary of NAIC historian's attempt to find references to Roswell, flying saucers, wreckage, and aliens at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. It is safe to say that there are few if any formerly Top Secret documents in the Project Blue Book files. However, there are several references to Top Secret UFO document at Wright Field. Have these documents been recovered from records centers?

While the NAIC was able to determine that the investigative records for Project SIGN and Project Grudge for 1948-1949 were at the St. Louis record center, earlier records had been lost in a fire. These Project SIGN/Grudge records contained information not available in the Project Blue Book files. While documents for 1947 had been destroyed in the 1973 fire at the records center, significant records at T-2 and AMC were microfilmed during this post-war period. Recent research into the Air Force intelligence report index cards also indicates that intelligence reports for AMC were microfilmed for their records. A query to AFMC brought the response that microfilms from this period might be in the possession of DTIC. Other researchers indicate DTIC is not in possession of such microfilms.


With the T-2 Files being lost to fire, I don't think Aldrich meant T-2 was not involved. The files are just not availible.


Access Denied wrote:Even if T-2 Intelligence was involved with Shulgen's preliminary study at some point they certainly wouldn’t be involved in a “counter intelligence operation” as that would be the responsibility of the CIC. There were no intelligence “agents” in T-2, only S&T analysts…


Let me quote again Air Force History...

The experiences of World War II shaped the future of the scientific and technical intelligence mission. T-2 Intelligence, established on 1 July 1945, began the move toward a balanced integration of engineering and intelligence. The administrative offices of T-2 moved to Building 262 in Area A (today, part of the Air Force Materiel Command headquarters building). A July 1947 T-2 study articulated a three-fold mission for air technical intelligence:

1. Insure the prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise from any source.

2. Provide intelligence required for command decisions and counsel upon air preparedness and air operations.

3. Insure appropriate counter-intelligence measures.

T-2 was responsible for the creation of air intelligence; identifying foreign aircraft and related equipment needed for study; receiving, translating, and distributing foreign language documents; and distributing finished air intelligence products and/or basic data, documents, and equipment as authorized. The T-2 organization included Analysis, Air Documents, and Photographic Divisions and also the Air Materiel Command (AMC) History Office. (The History Office was transferred to AMC headquarters in 1947, along with other non-intelligence functions.)



Clearly a counter intelligence component existed or this wouldn't be listed as a part of a three point mission statement.

By March of 1948 McCoy told the S.A.B. that T-2 had 300 reports that hadn't been reported in the papers.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jo ... swords.pdf
We have a new project Ð Project Sign Ð which may surprise you as a development
from the so-called mass hysteria of the past summer when we had all the unidentified
flying objects or discs. This can not be laughed off. We have over 300 reports which
have not been publicized in the papers
from very competent personnel, in many instances
Ð men as capable as Dr. K. D. Wood and practically all Air Force, Airline people
with broad experience. We are running down every report. I can’t even tell you how
much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover
whatever they are. (USAF-SAB 1948)


This shows McCoy and T-2 had an interest in reports that the Press had not reported.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:46 am

lost_shaman wrote:That's not what Aldrich is saying in my opinion. He's not suggesting that T-2 was not involved in AMC's investigation.

Correct, he’s suggesting there’s no evidence they were involved in Roswell, and more importantly, there’s no reason to believe they were. Again, all the available evidence points to T-3. As Aldrich put it in his conclusion…

Jan Aldrich wrote:What of Roswell then? Is it still the case that will overthrow 50 years of conventional history? A coverup of vast extent? The proof of a conspiracy of unimaginable proportions? Or was it more along the lines of other crashed disc cases that supplied supposed physical proof: Twin Falls, Idaho, Shreveport, Louisiana, Houston, Texas, and North Hollywood, California, all of which were quickly explained and barely noted in Project Blue Book records. Is Roswell the greatest event of the millennium, or is it as the report in the Dallas Morning News of 9 July would have it:

    Maj. E. M. Kirton, Intelligence Officer at Fort Worth Army Air Field blew the disc theory sky high at 5:30 p. m. when he told the Dallas News "there is nothing to it."

    "It is a Rawin high altitude sounding device," Major Kirton said. He described such an instrument, when undamaged, as of a design resembling a six-pointed star.

    "The Army and the Weather Bureau use the device, attached to a balloon, for gathering high altitude data. It is made partly of tinfoil-like material," the officer said.

    "The identification at Fort Worth is final," Major Kirton said, "and it will not be necessary to forward the object to Wright Field, as originally planned." What will be done with it?

    "I suppose we will throw it away," Major Kirton ventured.

The determination will not be made here, but hopefully in the mind of the reader after careful consideration.

Obviously we know now they did send it to Wright Field as planned (and then threw it away lol) but the question is, was this simply a (perfectly justifiable) cover story for TOP SECRET Project MOGUL or was it something else?

[that's a rhetorical question by the way]

lost_shaman wrote:With the T-2 Files being lost to fire, I don't think Aldrich meant T-2 was not involved. The files are just not availible.

Irrelevant. Did you miss this part?

Jan Aldrich wrote:On the 7th of July a meeting was held in Brigadier General Schlugen's office at Army Air Forces Intelligence headquarters in Washington, D. C. It was decided that a number of UFO incidents should be investigated and witnesses interviewed. A memorandum for record was written to that effect and cables drafted to Air Materiel Center (AMC) and Air Defense Command (ADC). The cables requesting these interviews were not dispatched until 5:45 p. m. on the 9th of July 1947. One would tend to expect a more immediate reaction if the unfolding events in the southwest were considered important.

What does this have to do with Roswell and your unfounded "counter intelligence operation" speculation?

lost_shaman wrote:Let me quote again Air Force History...

A July 1947 T-2 study articulated a three-fold mission for air technical intelligence:

1. Insure the prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise from any source.

2. Provide intelligence required for command decisions and counsel upon air preparedness and air operations.

3. Insure appropriate counter-intelligence measures.

Clearly a counter intelligence component existed or this wouldn't be listed as a part of a three point mission statement.

And again you miss the point…

Obviously providing counter intelligence guidance would be one of the most important intelligence “products” T-2 analysts would be responsible for creating. What other agency would be in a better position to insure CIC agents and others were aware of what critical technologies our adversaries would be most interested in and needed to be protected?

lost_shaman wrote:By March of 1948 McCoy told the S.A.B. that T-2 had 300 reports that hadn't been reported in the papers.

McCoy wrote:I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.

This shows McCoy and T-2 had an interest in reports that the Press had not reported.

And you find this surprising because?
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:40 am

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:That's not what Aldrich is saying in my opinion. He's not suggesting that T-2 was not involved in AMC's investigation.

Correct, he’s suggesting there’s no evidence they were involved in Roswell, and more importantly, there’s no reason to believe they were. Again, all the available evidence points to T-3. As Aldrich put it in his conclusion…

Jan Aldrich wrote:What of Roswell then? Is it still the case that will overthrow 50 years of conventional history? A coverup of vast extent? The proof of a conspiracy of unimaginable proportions? Or was it more along the lines of other crashed disc cases that supplied supposed physical proof: Twin Falls, Idaho, Shreveport, Louisiana, Houston, Texas, and North Hollywood, California, all of which were quickly explained and barely noted in Project Blue Book records. Is Roswell the greatest event of the millennium, or is it as the report in the Dallas Morning News of 9 July would have it:

    Maj. E. M. Kirton, Intelligence Officer at Fort Worth Army Air Field blew the disc theory sky high at 5:30 p. m. when he told the Dallas News "there is nothing to it."

    "It is a Rawin high altitude sounding device," Major Kirton said. He described such an instrument, when undamaged, as of a design resembling a six-pointed star.

    "The Army and the Weather Bureau use the device, attached to a balloon, for gathering high altitude data. It is made partly of tinfoil-like material," the officer said.

    "The identification at Fort Worth is final," Major Kirton said, "and it will not be necessary to forward the object to Wright Field, as originally planned." What will be done with it?

    "I suppose we will throw it away," Major Kirton ventured.

The determination will not be made here, but hopefully in the mind of the reader after careful consideration.


Aldrich is discussing Roswell in terms of the recovery of an Alien Spaceship, I agree that there was no involvement in that type of activity but Aldrich is not discussing the possibility that Roswell was just staged for the Press by a counter intelligence component which is what I've suggested and here I believe there was likely involvement.




Access Denied wrote:Obviously we know now they did send it to Wright Field as planned (and then threw it away lol) but the question is, was this simply a (perfectly justifiable) cover story for TOP SECRET Project MOGUL or was it something else?

[that's a rhetorical question by the way]



How do you "know" that? There is no evidence for it other than Trakowski's claim. Of course Trakowski wrote a report in 1949 discussing MOGUL balloons being mistaken for Flying Saucers and didn't mention Roswell.



Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:With the T-2 Files being lost to fire, I don't think Aldrich meant T-2 was not involved. The files are just not availible.

Irrelevant. Did you miss this part?

Jan Aldrich wrote:On the 7th of July a meeting was held in Brigadier General Schlugen's office at Army Air Forces Intelligence headquarters in Washington, D. C. It was decided that a number of UFO incidents should be investigated and witnesses interviewed. A memorandum for record was written to that effect and cables drafted to Air Materiel Center (AMC) and Air Defense Command (ADC). The cables requesting these interviews were not dispatched until 5:45 p. m. on the 9th of July 1947. One would tend to expect a more immediate reaction if the unfolding events in the southwest were considered important.

What does this have to do with Roswell and your unfounded "counter intelligence operation" speculation?


According to Conners, and Hall, Loedding was working with the T-2 investigation on July 9th so the investigation at T-2 had to have begun before this date and before these "cables" arrived.

http://www.nicap.org/loedding/LoeddingBook.pdf

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Let me quote again Air Force History...

A July 1947 T-2 study articulated a three-fold mission for air technical intelligence:

1. Insure the prevention of strategic, tactical or technological surprise from any source.

2. Provide intelligence required for command decisions and counsel upon air preparedness and air operations.

3. Insure appropriate counter-intelligence measures.

Clearly a counter intelligence component existed or this wouldn't be listed as a part of a three point mission statement.

And again you miss the point…

Obviously providing counter intelligence guidance would be one of the most important intelligence “products” T-2 analysts would be responsible for creating. What other agency would be in a better position to insure CIC agents and others were aware of what critical technologies our adversaries would be most interested in and needed to be protected?


I'm not arguing against that, of course that would be true but I also have no problem with them also being able to concoct a false news story to get the attention of the National Press so that the Army and Navy can fly RADAR targets and weather balloons for the Press all week so that they stop reporting on Flying Saucers so T-2 is free to investigate quietly and secretly. This makes sense historically especially considering that early on many believed these were actual aircraft, likely Russian, that were intruding with impunity on U.S. airspace. That possibility represented a very serious National Security concern.

I've never argued that CIC agents were not involved either.

As far as a "CI" operation is concerned all anyone at AMC or anywhere else need do is outline what the false news story should be and how it should play out to effect the result of a disinterested or disillusioned National Press. This doesn't require any great effort, certainly less than hypothetically flying a RADAR target to Wright Field for Identification while staging a Press conference using a RADAR target as a cover story for the one being flown to Wright Field. If it was simply a false news story to cool down National Press interest in reporting Saucer stories as I've suggested, it has to be viewed as a great success.The National Press completely bought into the weather balloon explanation for flying saucers and by and large dropped the coverage until the Chilles-Whitted sighting. MOGUL proponents are forced to believe this was all just a fortunate accident.




Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:By March of 1948 McCoy told the S.A.B. that T-2 had 300 reports that hadn't been reported in the papers.

McCoy wrote:I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.

This shows McCoy and T-2 had an interest in reports that the Press had not reported.

And you find this surprising because?


What I find "surprising" is the fact that It looks like you've blatantly misquoted me! Responding to what I actually was talking about must be too hard, I guess.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:41 am

lost_shaman wrote:What I find "surprising" is the fact that It looks like you've blatantly misquoted me! Responding to what I actually was talking about must be too hard, I guess.

How did I know you would feign indignation? After you figure that out you can try answering my question about what YOU wrote, not the part somebody else said that I blatantly highlighted to illustrate your hypocrisy and the disingenuity of your Roswell argument that’s staring you right in the face.

Tell us LS, what’s supposed to be so “surprising” (or significant if you prefer) about 300 reports that that hadn't been reported in the papers by March of 1948 and McCoy's interest?

Otherwise, I think we’re done here…
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:09 am

How does this statement, "I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.", by McCoy highlight "my" hypocrisy and show that I'm disinginuous?
I don't see it, (because its not true), unless you really believe I'm secretly trying to convince you that Aliens crashed in the desert.

Tell us LS, what’s supposed to be so “surprising” (or significant if you prefer) about 300 reports that that hadn't been reported in the papers by March of 1948 and McCoy's interest?


It's not the reports that I considered significant, but rather that this shows McCoy's and thus T-2's interest in the Press involvment with the Phenomena specifically that the Press not be involved. It shows the motive existed at a time when this investigation was still secret and this was likely true from the begining in July,'47. Such a motive potentially explains the events in July, 1947. Other hypotheses tend to only focus on July, 7th, and 8th.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Access Denied » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:52 pm

First of all, thank you for answering the question and I apologize for being so harsh because maybe you truly are just not seeing it…

lost_shaman wrote:How does this statement, "I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.", by McCoy highlight "my" hypocrisy and show that I'm disinginuous?

Because as you said in your last post for example, “If it [Roswell] was simply a false news story to cool down National Press interest in reporting Saucer stories as I've suggested, it has to be viewed as a great success.” that would make it even less likely they would hear about a crash and be able to recover one.

If, as you believe, this hypothetical “counter intelligence operation” was a “great success” in convincing people through the press that flying saucers were “ours” and the military wasn’t interested, why would anybody bother to report it and why would AMC have 300 reports by early 1948 from both the military and the public that weren’t reported in the press?

Picture this, Virgil and Ed stumble onto a crashed flying saucer on their farm near Dayton, Ohio…

    Virgil: Say Ed, what do you think we should do about this?
    Ed: Well I don’t know Virgil, that poor rancher in New Mexico reported one of these crashed flying saucers to the sheriff and all hell broke loose!
    Virgil: Yeah I read in the paper he said “if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it.”
    Ed: Well, it don’t look like no bomb to me.
    Virgil: Yeah, maybe we should bury it. I don’t want those G Men crawling all over my farm and finding the still in the barn.
    Ed: Maybe we can cut it up and sell it for scrap.
    Virgil: I’ll go get the combine.
Obviously your hypothetical “counter intelligence operation” is counter productive from an intelligence gathering perspective.

Of course we know now it took the Air Force another 20 years to convince the “powers that be” in government that soliciting UFO reports from the public was counter productive from a counter intelligence (and National Security) perspective because in many cases (like Roswell) they were “ours” which put them in the very awkward position of having to explain it and our adversaries hearing about it.

Also, with the advent of advanced radar and more complete coverage, it was no longer necessary from an intelligence gathering or National Security perspective to rely on the general public for reports of any possible unauthorized incursions into our airspace…
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:56 pm

Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:How does this statement, "I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.", by McCoy highlight "my" hypocrisy and show that I'm disinginuous?

Because as you said in your last post for example, “If it [Roswell] was simply a false news story to cool down National Press interest in reporting Saucer stories as I've suggested, it has to be viewed as a great success.” that would make it even less likely they would hear about a crash and be able to recover one.

If, as you believe, this hypothetical “counter intelligence operation” was a “great success” in convincing people through the press that flying saucers were “ours” and the military wasn’t interested, why would anybody bother to report it and why would AMC have 300 reports by early 1948 from both the military and the public that weren’t reported in the press?


Interesting angle AD, however if this had been a real problem they could have reversed their position and asked for the Press and Publics help with a simple Press conference at anytime they wished. The fact that they didn't do so IMO lends support to the idea that the weather balloon explaination that was sold to the Press in July '47 was intentional as opposed to accidental.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby lost_shaman » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:07 am

I just want to address something here...

Of course we know now it took the Air Force another 20 years to convince the “powers that be” in government that soliciting UFO reports from the public was counter productive from a counter intelligence (and National Security) perspective because in many cases (like Roswell) they were “ours” which put them in the very awkward position of having to explain it and our adversaries hearing about it.


While it is true that there are many cases that might be cited, not a single one of them is anything like "Roswell". For that matter the idea that "Roswell" was a cover for something the U.S. did (other than a counter intelligence operation) is only loosely based on recollections of two people that claim no knowledge of such a cover story, Moore and Col. Trakowski.

Since neither of these two people were involved in 1947 I wonder how anyone preformed a cover for something that was secret? There is not a single shred of evidence that even suggests a cover for "MOGUL" or anything else was responsible for "Roswell".

Barring evidence in the form of documents that show one way or the other my "counter intelligence operation" explains the actions of the Army, AAF, and the Navy begining July 9th. The AF version of events doesn't even bother to explain anything.
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Re: Roswellian Soothsayer?

Postby Gilles F. » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:47 am

Greetings,

Very sorry to make "up" an old thread. Just in order you know if you dont, that Bernard Newman 1948 book the flying saucer have been reprinted or re-edited by Westholme Publishing.

For example, it is available in amazon.

Regards,

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