Roswell, My idea

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Roswell, My idea

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:27 am

As I got accused of 'Taking the piss' on the other thread Ive moved my post here.


OK I'llk go a bit further in my ideas of Roswell.
Look at the date.
Look at what happened only 2 year earlier and continued for another year or so
Everyone knows about 'Paperclip', that was just the public face of the US and Russia's appropriation of German technology.
What you wont find is much, (if any at all) information on the secret technology that the US obtained. VERY secret stuff, anti gravity being just one of the technologies. Technology which the US still cant controll properly.

I am of the belief that Hans Kammler was 'spirited' across to the US and it was the technology which he was in charge of and equipoment he was also in posession of, that was developed and subsequently crashed at Rosswell. (though it could have been a balloon).
By the end of the war the US was pretty proficient at disinformation and it was probably they who created the myth of Rosswell being a UFO.
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Frank Stalter » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:10 pm

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Last edited by Frank Stalter on Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:40 pm

Frank Stalter wrote:You might find this interesting:

http://ufopartisan.blogspot.com/2010/08/roswell-d-day-and-titanium-industry.html

The crash debris was taken to Wright-Patterson AFB, per the USAF 95 Roswell report, where there were some Paper Clip scientists on staff. You should look into your idea further. It's possible there's something to it.


Oh I tried, believe me I tried. Just this past week Ive been in Poland and the Czech republic nosing around (with respect to Kammler).
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:40 pm

Hmmm...

Chorlton wrote:What you wont find is much, (if any at all) information on the secret technology that the US obtained. VERY secret stuff, anti gravity being just one of the technologies.

So you have no evidence? What lead you to believe this then?

Source(s) please…

Chorlton wrote:Technology which the US still cant controll properly.

That's funny because...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gravity

Under general relativity, anti-gravity is highly unlikely, except under contrived circumstances that are regarded as unlikely or impossible.

Would you have people believe that in over 60 years not one other scientist (other than the VERY secret German ones who are now dead and you have no evidence figured this out in the first place) in the whole world hasn’t figured this out independently on their own?

That’s a whole lot of incompetent scientists don’t you think?

Chorlton wrote:I am of the belief that Hans Kammler was 'spirited' across to the US and it was the technology which he was in charge of and equipoment he was also in posession of, that was developed and subsequently crashed at Rosswell. (though it could have been a balloon).

Ah, you’re a Nick Cook fan…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kammler

Joseph P. Farrell's "Reich of the Black Sun" (2005) casts further doubt upon the facts surrounding his death[10], however Farrell's only source is the book "Blunder! How the U.S. Gave Away Nazi Supersecrets to Russia" (1985) by self-identified "British Intelligence agent" Tom Agoston.

Is that you Chorlton? :)

In reality, unlike many other war criminals who escaped from Europe at the end of World War II, such as Josef Mengele, there have been no sightings of Kammler since the end of the war, and it might indeed have been that he did die in 1945. Additionally, Kammler was primarily an administrator rather than a physicist or rocket engineer, and it would appear unlikely that he would have been considered suitable for recruitment by the US.

In other words, no brains.

Chorlton wrote:By the end of the war the US was pretty proficient at disinformation and it was probably they who created the myth of Rosswell being a UFO.

Russia was good at this too, perhaps even better…
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:59 pm

Access Denied wrote:Hmmm...

Chorlton wrote:What you wont find is much, (if any at all) information on the secret technology that the US obtained. VERY secret stuff, anti gravity being just one of the technologies.

So you have no evidence? What lead you to believe this then?
Source(s) please…

So you dont believe the US took secret technology? You do believe they took the rockets though?
OK You asked below if I was a fan of Nick Cook? Actually I'm not but if you would like to take a look at the bibliography of his book 'The Hunt for Zero Point' your answers to the above will be easily found.
However I think you'll find that Anti-Grav research is probably THE most secret thing in the US, apart from which, basic Anti-grav or gravity deflection has been shown many time, even by our own Eric laithwaite.

Chorlton wrote:Technology which the US still cant controll properly.

That's funny because...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gravity


As I said, probably THE most secret subject in the US and probably UK and Russia and Japan.

That’s a whole lot of incompetent scientists don’t you think?

No just a whole lot of obfuscation, deflection and secrecy.

Chorlton wrote:In reality, unlike many other war criminals who escaped from Europe at the end of World War II, such as Josef Mengele, there have been no sightings of Kammler since the end of the war, and it might indeed have been that he did die in 1945. Additionally, Kammler was primarily an administrator rather than a physicist or rocket engineer, and it would appear unlikely that he would have been considered suitable for recruitment by the US.

In other words, no brains.

You continue believing that and the disinfo surrounding it.
If you dont think that the major powers in the world arent seriously researching Anti Grav then my opinion of you has sunk lower than a dachsunds nuts. You dont really think they spend all those billions on hammers and toilet seats do you? Seen the Japanese research into Superconductors or dont you relate that to anti grav?


Chorlton wrote:By the end of the war the US was pretty proficient at disinformation and it was probably they who created the myth of Rosswell being a UFO.

Russia was good at this too, perhaps even better…

Indeed as the many UFO's seen over Russia testify
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:11 pm

So tell me AD, what technologies do you think the US is researching in the top secret Labs across the US?
You still think theyre playing with Rocket Science?
Maybe you think they have a REAL Alien craft at Roswell? (laughs out very loud)

What do YOU think happened at Roswell? I gave my opinion

Seems to me your US Disinfo people are working very well.
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:13 pm

Chorlton wrote:As I got accused of 'Taking the piss' on the other thread Ive moved my post here.

Thank you, the other thread was about evidence that the Roswell Myth (crashed alien spaceship) may have been based on similar events that happened or similar stories that were told either before or after it occurred but long before the story became popular some 30 years later…

Your idea appears to be about Roswell being something other than a crashed alien spaceship or a balloon. In other words it’s a separate topic...
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:05 pm

Chorlton wrote:So you dont believe the US took secret technology? You do believe they took the rockets though?

Of course we did and of course I do. However, it's no longer a secret...

Now can you prove Santa Claus doesn't exist? :)

Here you go, some fuel for your conspiracy theory…

United States gravity control propulsion research (1955–1974)

Perhaps you’d like to discuss something specific from that?

(that you think is related to Roswell)

Chorlton wrote:If you dont think that the major powers in the world arent seriously researching Anti Grav then my opinion of you has sunk lower than a dachsunds nuts.

I'm crushed, I really didn’t think it could get any lower than that…

:cry:

Chorlton wrote:You dont really think they spend all those billions on hammers and toilet seats do you?

Of course not, we have much better stuff than that, and you… :)

Chorlton wrote:Seen the Japanese research into Superconductors or dont you relate that to anti grav?

No.

Chorlton wrote:So tell me AD, what technologies do you think the US is researching in the top secret Labs across the US?
You still think theyre playing with Rocket Science?

I don’t think, I know… :)

(there is no classified "anti-gravity" or "field propulsion" research going on… it’s pseudoscience and no credible theoretical work that refutes GR has ever been published)

Chorlton wrote:Maybe you think they have a REAL Alien craft at Roswell? (laughs out very loud)

What do YOU think happened at Roswell? I gave my opinion

All of the first hand accounts and historical evidence points to a balloon and radar reflector… the official explanation is it was being used in highly classified project to try and detect Russian nuclear tests and this is backed up by considerable formerly classified documentation.

What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Chorlton wrote:Seems to me your US Disinfo people are working very well.

It’s designed to work on our enemies, are you one of our enemies? :)
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:38 pm

Access Denied wrote:
(that you think is related to Roswell)

So you dont consider that the timing of Roswell and the retrieval and possible testing of stuff they found in Germany at all related? Curious, if not bizarre. Your ability to think laterally is rather dissapointing
Chorlton wrote:If you dont think that the major powers in the world arent seriously researching Anti Grav then my opinion of you has sunk lower than a dachsunds nuts.

I'm crushed, I really didn’t think it could get any lower than that…
:cry:


So you dont? Fine. The US disinfo works.
Chorlton wrote:You dont really think they spend all those billions on hammers and toilet seats do you?

Of course not, we have much better stuff than that, and you… :)

OK I see this is too much for you
Chorlton wrote:Seen the Japanese research into Superconductors or dont you relate that to anti grav?

No.

No what? you havent seen it or you dont think it could relate to anti-grav, or are you just being totally obnoxious today? PMT maybe? You really should read up a little more.
Chorlton wrote:So tell me AD, what technologies do you think the US is researching in the top secret Labs across the US?
You still think theyre playing with Rocket Science?

I don’t think, I know… :)

Really? then theres no hope for the future of US tech if you really believe that.
(there is no classified "anti-gravity" or "field propulsion" research going on… it’s pseudoscience and no credible theoretical work that refutes GR has ever been published)

You are either being facile or silly. In this specific case I would suggest total abscence of evidence IS evidence of something going on. In this specific case I would suggest you do indeed read The Hunt for Zero Point and check the credentials of US scientists and people mentioned in it with respect to anti-grav. That basic forms of Anti-grav or Gravity deflection are already known and public info, Check up on Dr Eric Laithwaite and his experiments.

Chorlton wrote:Maybe you think they have a REAL Alien craft at Roswell? (laughs out very loud)

What do YOU think happened at Roswell? I gave my opinion

All of the first hand accounts and historical evidence points to a balloon and radar reflector… the official explanation is it was being used in highly classified project to try and detect Russian nuclear tests and this is backed up by considerable formerly classified documentation.
What evidence do you have to the contrary?

There is no incontrovertible evidence for or against your or my theory (a test vehicle crash) Still seems like you go for the disinfo line though, then again youre an American, whats new? follow the government line.
I never thought you would swallow it though.

Chorlton wrote:Seems to me your US Disinfo people are working very well.

It’s designed to work on our enemies, are you one of our enemies? :)

No dear, its designed to work on YOU


I tried to put over a rational idea for discussion. However, as you are inclined to take the piss (something you wrongly accused me of). I'm out.
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 pm

Show me the evidence...

Oh that's right, you can't because it's secret, yet somehow YOU of all people know about it because someone else who doesn't have any evidence either told you. :roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning


P.S. I fixed your quotes for you again, that's ok, you can thank me later... :)
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:52 am

Chorlton wrote:In this specific case I would suggest total abscence of evidence IS evidence of something going on.


My BULL-SHIT-O-METER is pinging off the scales! Stop it, Chorly, or you will break it!

You are quite an anachronism, Chorlton. On some subjects you will harangue and harass people who don't have evidence for wild claims. But when it comes to YOUR wild claims, with no evidence, you harangue and harass people for not accepting your lack of evidence. And you can't PRESENT evidence, but you can employ the old hoaxer dodge of "you need to do more reading up on ....." but never cite a single SPECIFIC thing related to your innuendo that would support your wild claim.

I love it how you, a Brit without any experience (much less clearance) in the aerospace biz (which would be the central focus in any sort of "anti=grav" engineering) knows for certain all about our US secrets. But those of us who actually work IN the US aerospace biz, and some of us with SECRET and TS clerances...we are all just in the dark and don't know.

I always knew you were an entertainer, Chorly, but I thought it was music only...never knew you did comedy!

:lol:
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby ryguy » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:01 pm

Chorlton wrote:Everyone knows about 'Paperclip', that was just the public face of the US and Russia's appropriation of German technology. What you wont find is much, (if any at all) information on the secret technology that the US obtained. VERY secret stuff, anti gravity being just one of the technologies. Technology which the US still cant control properly.

I am of the belief that Hans Kammler was 'spirited' across to the US and it was the technology which he was in charge of and equipoment he was also in posession of, that was developed and subsequently crashed at Rosswell. (though it could have been a balloon).
By the end of the war the US was pretty proficient at disinformation and it was probably they who created the myth of Rosswell being a UFO.


This is an excellent avenue to explore, and as I recall from reading a couple of interesting books on the topic, there are plenty of declassified documents on the topic, many of which have not been published, talked about or scoured over (there are just too many - quite a few "quietly" declassified and stored away). A couple of great authors briefly touched on this topic - I would highly suggest Nick Redfurn's book "Bodysnatchers in the Desert", as he published a few FOIA docs that refer specifically to that history that you're talking about - but those documents suggest nothing related to antigravity at all.

In my mind, he didn't pursue it far enough - just published the docs and then speculated on what they "could" mean (he doesn't support the antigravity theory), but those docs introduce a lot of clues and leads that a good researcher could pursue in the very areas that you reference.

They certainly brought over a lot of technology from Germany during Project Paperclip and related efforts, but as far as I understand/remember from the existing docs, all of the "antigravity" claims are disinformation, misinformation. With that said, there was a lot of technology/research that was "imported" from the Nazis, so I think that you bring up an excellent avenue of research that should be pursued. The history of the time was fascinating - I really love reading about it because it feeds into my WWII obsession. It would be interesting to read through more of the declassified documents of the time.

From what I remember, they had less to do with advanced flight or "antigravity" and more to do with some pretty atrocious experiments conducted on humans, and of course there was a ton of missile technology research. I'll post up the ones I've seen with references shortly when I get home and have time to find them.

A number of Ufology writers have used the event to suggest anti-gravity technology was discovered, but those writers don't tend to base those conclusions on any solid, hard documents that I've seen - it's always speculation. With that said, there are declassified docs from that time and this topic is a great research project to pursue.

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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Count » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:58 pm

Access Denied wrote:Hmmm...
In reality, unlike many other war criminals who escaped from Europe at the end of World War II, such as Josef Mengele, there have been no sightings of Kammler since the end of the war, and it might indeed have been that he did die in 1945. Additionally, Kammler was primarily an administrator rather than a physicist or rocket engineer, and it would appear unlikely that he would have been considered suitable for recruitment by the US.

In other words, no brains.


With all due respect, that's not what your quote says.

If you were an administrator of a sizable military/government sponsored think-tank/research organization, would it be fair to you to say that you have no brains even if you weren't a scientist in that organization yourself? Afterall, the man had a PhD to go with his jackboots.

I don't know if Kammler survived or not but in my opinion I would consider a man who knows what's been done and who has all the information in his head and/or in his files a prime catch - not for doing the actual research, but to point out who the worthwhile researchers are.
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:45 am

Well, besides the fact he was hard core SS which would make him a serious security risk and unlikely to “join the other side” willingly I would imagine, his PhD was in Civil Engineering so nothing desirable about that either. Also, according to Wikipedia…

The Osenberg List

By early 1943, the German government began recalling from combat a number of scientists, engineers, and technicians; they returned to work in research and development to bolster German defense for a protracted war with the USSR.

[…]

Werner Osenberg, the engineer-scientist heading the Wehrforschungsgemeinschaft (Military Research Association), recorded the names of the politically-cleared men to the Osenberg List, thus reinstating them to scientific work.

In March 1945, at Bonn University, a Polish laboratory technician found pieces of the Osenberg List stuffed in a toilet; the list subsequently reached MI6, who transmitted it to US Intelligence. Then US Army Major Robert B. Staver, Chief of the Jet Propulsion Section of the Research and Intelligence Branch of the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps, used the Osenberg List to compile his list of German scientists to be captured and interrogated; Wernher von Braun, Nazi Germany’s premier rocket scientist headed Major Staver’s list.

And…

Early on the U.S. created the Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (CIOS). This provided the information on targets for the T-Forces that went in and targeted scientific, military and industrial installations (and their employees) for their know-how. Initial priorities were advanced technology, such as infrared, that could be used in the war against Japan; finding out what technology had been passed on to Japan; and finally to halt the research.

It would appear the most valuable scientists would have already been identified one way or the other and later targeted for recruitment making Kammler’s knowledge somewhat redundant and had he been captured alive, no doubt he would have been interrogated for all he was worth anyway.

[shrugs]

Anyway, looking at the Wikipedia entry for the Nazi "Bell" it appears the whole flying saucer thing is based on hearsay alone so one would have to come up with a pretty elaborate conspiracy theory to explain the lack of any evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Glocke
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Re: Roswell, My idea

Postby century » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:15 pm

Edgar Mitchell seems to think we have been visited.
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