Tehran 1976

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Tehran 1976

Postby Gilles F. » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:54 pm

Greetings friends,

I open this topic because in France, we have very few prosaic or skeptic sources concerning this famous UFO case, excepting one or two discussions in french tong, proposing complex mistake. I know only Philip Klass thesis concerning "Jupiter", pilot incompetence and equipment malfunction and french skeptics are mainly following this thesis.

Do you guys have other sources, articles, readings, discussions etc. to propose in order we increase our "file" and in order we share or translate english skeptic sources concerning this famous UFO case?

Thank you very much!
Very Best Regards,

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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:47 pm

I had a brief discussion with an F-4 pilot (or at least he claimed to be and had pertinent documents to suggest such) and he had a problem with the story about the F-4 flying from its base at high speed. To make the trip from his airbase for the intercept would require wing tanks and that would have slowed the jet down considerably (I believe it would have been below mach 1.0). I will have to see what I have in this regard. Other than that, I don't have anything that has not been stated before.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Gilles F. » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:24 pm

Thank you Tim,

I totaly ignored this "technical" argument, very interesting to follow and to verify. And I'm probably not the only one!

Best Regards,

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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:38 pm

This was the fellow here:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5311255&postcount=2826

We had some private communications after this and if you go to the thread (which is quite extensive), he spent a few days there and got tired of convincing the proponent about some of the information being promoted on this case was flawed regarding the performance of the F-4. I was wrong about the speed with tanks. I don't have the documents he shared with me (I am assuming they are on my home computer) but I see he states it was more like Mach 1.3-1.4 (not the Mach 2.0+ described in the story).

Edit: some technical information about the F-4

http://www.mstewart.net/subob/fighters/f4.pdf
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:15 pm

Hi Gilles, I was involved in that same discussion that Tim mentions and I did a lot of research into the provenance of the infamous DIA “routing slip” and “classified” (confidential) teletype that was based on the (unclassified) “Mooy Memo” that was leaked to the press right after the incident and found some interesting things.

My working hypothesis is I basically agree with Klass that initially the jets were mistakenly scrambled to intercept a celestial object (no wonder they couldn't catch it) but I believe it's possible this may have been seen by the Soviets as an aggressive move (evidently playing “chicken” with each other was quite common during that time period) and they scrambled one or two of their own jets (likely the far superior Mach 2.8+ MiG-25 with ECM) to intercept and the pilots quickly found themselves outmatched. If that was the case I believe it's possible the Iranians then tried to cover up their incompetence by attributing it to UFOs and denying authorization was given to the pilot to fire in violation of international agreements. Of course this is all assuming we’ve been given a reasonably accurate accounting of events…

Another point that came out of that discussion is if the second pilot actually did pick up a bogey on his six on the rear facing homing warning system (basically a passive radar detector) then it seems to me it had to be a terrestrial craft because the systems were tuned to pick up known enemy radar frequencies… that is unless ET are using the same radar as the Soviets. :)

Anyway, when I get some time I can put together some links to my findings if you’re interested. I also have some doubt that Jafari who’s being paraded around the UFO circuit was actually the pilot of the second jet. For example Bob Pratt at the National Enquirer who was involved in the original reporting (and paid the six participants a “reward” of $5,000 each for their story) cites First Lieutenant Jalal Damirian and Second Lieutenant Hossein Shokry as the pilots of the second jet here…

http://www.mufon.com/bob_pratt/classic.html

And the Wikipedia articles states Captain Mohammad Reza Azizkhani was the pilot of the first jet and says Lieutenant Parviz Jafari was the pilot of the second but then talks about an episode of Sightings that interviewed one of the pilots of the first jet named Yaddi Nazeri and refers to Jafari as a General…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident

I find it hard to believe he would have been promoted to General after allegedly trying to fire on a bogey that General Azarbarzin claims the order was never given for. Seems somebody would (literally) have had his head…


P.S. I have copies of Pratt’s MUFON case file that seems to have gone missing if anyone’s interested.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Gilles F. » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:52 pm

Very interesting ! Thank you so much Tim and Access Denied.

Yes,we are very interested: Skeptics sources about this case are very rare in french tong, so I think we will summerize all of this and translate in French (mentioning the sources and your findings of course) in a thread, in order readers have counter-tons! Take your time: as for you this end of the year is hard and "ufology" just an hobby. Happy hollidays then;)

TY again!

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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:40 pm

I guess the question that was raised last time was (assuming Jafari was the pilot) Jafari's experience level/rank at the time. "Puddle duck" suggested he could have been an inexperienced LT at the time and some of the problems with the aircraft were simply mistakes on his part in the excitement of the moment. These sort of things do happen. The Washington DC airplane crash back in the early 1980s (I think it was an air Florida plane), went down partly because the pilots had the flaps in the wrong position (at least that is my recollection). Pilot error seems to be a more likely possibility than alien spaceship interference.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby nablator » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:51 pm

Hi all,

Access Denied wrote:P.S. I have copies of Pratt’s MUFON case file that seems to have gone missing if anyone’s interested.

This 113-page PDF maybe?
http://www.mufon.com/FamousCases/1976%2 ... 20File.pdf

So many contradictory statements... see page 41:
The pilots made no attempt to open fire and at no time did the aircrafts' electronic gear fail to function.


Bruce Maccabee calls this article in the Kayhan International newspaper "a bold attempt at a cover-up". A top UFO story without any official cover-up would be unthinkable. :wink:
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:10 pm

That’s it, thanks Nablator! Hmm, I wonder why the link I had didn’t work? There was a Part 2 and 3 as well but they were just copies of the unredacted teletype which should be available elsewhere. By the way, check out pages 103 and tell me if you see anything interesting. If not, I outlined what I found interesting here…

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=3547

Tim, here’s the page PD seemed to be basing his confidence in Jafari on and he asked you to search for his name…

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Coun ... losses.htm

And here's the post where I pointed out some more discrepancies with that...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=3544

I suppose it’s possible Jafari was an IIAF pilot, but given all the name discrepancies with various sources I would really like to some documentation that proves he was the pilot in this case.

Of course regardless of who actually was the pilot, that doesn’t change the validity of the inexperience argument.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:18 pm

Jafari says he was a Major at the time and squadron commander (Kean's book). I wonder if that can be checked?

EDIT: Even an experienced pilot can make a mistake. I saw the show on NOVA about the deadliest plane crash involving two 747s in the Canary islands. It all came down to the poor decision making process of one of the most experienced pilot at KLM. It makes you really think about the guy in the cockpit you trust your life with everytime you board a plane.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:46 pm

nablator wrote:Bruce Maccabee calls this article in the Kayhan International newspaper "a bold attempt at a cover-up". A top UFO story without any official cover-up would be unthinkable. :wink:

I see you removed this part that you quoted from that article...

And, since everything on the plane from controls to fuel pump is electronically operated, it's a little puzzling to figure out how the plane could possibly have kept in the air anyway.

Can't remember what the consensus is on that but in this case it appears the Iranians and Maccabee were the only ones trying to cover anything up. :)

astrophotographer wrote:Jafari says he was a Major at the time and squadron commander (Kean's book). I wonder if that can be checked?

Good question, I imagine records from that period might be hard to come by after the government was overthrown and the Islamic Revolution ended in 1979. A better question might be did Kean et. al. check?
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:52 am

I pretty much am convinced that Kean did very little fact checking in her book. She even admitted this on MSNBC.com when she answered Oberg's commentary. She basically stated that Oberg should take his comments on one chapter up with the author and not her.

The records probably were destroyed but on I am curious as to when various photographs were taken. Jafari, in Kean's book, said the first plane left some time after 12:30 and he was at home. He drove to the base and then jumped in his plane at 1:30 to take off. Who knows what really happened that night. I wonder if the author of the original USAF report is still alive (I think his name was Mooey or something like that).
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:52 am

Really? Mooy's report (reportedly based on notes he took during the “interview” of the second pilot he sat in on the next day) says the first plane took off at 0130 and the second at 0140...

Have not seen the photos in Kean's book. I do recall seeing one of Jafari standing in front of a F-4 somewhere though.

I'll send you a potential lead I found by separate email.
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Re: Teheran 1976

Postby Gilles F. » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:38 pm

astrophotographer wrote:I pretty much am convinced that Kean did very little fact checking in her book. She even admitted this on MSNBC.com when she answered Oberg's commentary. She basically stated that Oberg should take his comments on one chapter up with the author and not her.


I believe that her chapter 14 "FRANCE AND THE UFO QUESTION" is writted by Jean Jacques Velasco, "retired" GE(I)PAN (our official french organization about UFOs), as the Chaper 2 (concerning the Belgium wave) by General De Brouwer?

I have not readed her book right now, then cant absolutly confirm, but I think Nablator, our french forum great contributor, did, and can confirm it?
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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:02 am

Gilles, for what it’s worth, as indicated earlier, here’s the links to my findings regarding the provenance of the teletype that Maccabee incorrectly attributes to having been sent by Lt. Col. Mooy from the Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG) in Tehran who sat in on an “interview” by Iranian officials with the pilot of the second jet…

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=2638
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=3076
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=3447
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p= ... count=3547

If that’s not confusing enough, in summary, it turns out the teletype was sent up the chain as a matter of routine intelligence by Col. McKenzie in the Defense Attaché Office (DAO) at the US Embassy in Tehran who had somehow obtained a copy of Mooy’s unclassified “Memorandum for the Record” from an unidentified source which is the only part of the teletype that was classified Confidential. If he had received a copy of the memo from Mooy or any other US official there would be no reason not to name him.

The teletype made it’s way (a month after it was published by NICAP) to Col. Evans, an analyst at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), who found it to be “An outstanding report: this case is a classic which meets all the criteria necessary for a valid study of UFO phenomena” however it appears Evans was unaware that both Iranian and US officials in Iran had dismissed the report as written and already covered in the press. In a letter to Klass Zechel, [regarding a letter from] Mooy’s boss Maj. Gen. Miles [, Klass] stated…

“Why a security classification of "Confidential" was added, and by whom, when this unclassified debriefing report later was sent by teletype dispatch to Washington is beyond me!”

In conclusion, I suspect Iranian intelligence was somehow involved (perhaps through journalists or one of the principals) in passing a copy of Mooy’s memo to McKenzie as well as UFO investigators as part of an effort to cover-up the fact that they screwed up and were inadvertently engaged by the Soviets while chasing a star or planet. It’s not clear who the initial “sources” of the UFO interpretation of the event given to the press that night immediately after the incident were but I suspect Pirouzi (a civilian) was involved…

“Late Saturday night the Ettela'at evening daily reporter who broke the story in Tehran, said that highly informed sources had told him that the pilots tried to open fire on the object when it became obvious it was changing its course against them but, inexplicably, their electronically operated devices failed to respond.”

However, I suspect Iranian officials decided it was better to run with the UFO narrative the next day than the alternative, having to admit one of their pilots tried to fire on the Soviets while having their asses handed to them. That would seem to be the purpose of the “interview “ with the second pilot that Mooy was invited to attend. As noted earlier, many aspects of the story given to Mooy simply don’t add up. That would also explain why Azarbarzin told the press the order to fire was never given and Azarbarzin seemed (pretended to be) frustrated in his interview with Pratt that US officials didn’t take the UFO narrative seriously.

In other words the SNAFU was FUBAR… mission accomplished?

I could be wrong and a slightly different scenario fits the data (whole or partial fabrication of the “encounters”?) but regardless, it seems clear US officials weren’t concerned about it from a UFO aspect no matter how you look at it. Certainly the reasons given by the State Department for withholding information requested under the FOIA seems to suggest there was as a sensitive international aspect to the incident.

Anyway, hope that helps and as always, I would be interested in hearing alternate interpretations from others or if there’s anything I missed. Regarding Jafari, it should be noted he was identified as a young lieutenant and the pilot of the first jet in an article published by the Tehran Journal (and in the Kayhan International article “debunking” it as Pilot ‘J’ it would appear) shortly after the incident…

“The mystery of the ‘Unidentified Flying Object’ which was chased by the Air Force on Saturday night deepened yesterday as the pilot’s reports were released. The tape of Imperial Air Force Lt. Jafari’s reports to the control tower at Mehrebad airport was made available to Ettela’at reporters yesterday. The 23 year old pilot told controllers that the UFO had doubled back on it pursuers and he was in danger of being forced down. Jafari was piloting the first of two jet fighters which took off from Shahrokii Air Base in Hamadan to investigate the object.”

This seems consistent with Bob Pratt’s article that identifies the pilots of the second jet as Damirian and Shokry who curiously seem to have disappeared…

Tom


P.S. I hope you don’t mind but I changed the title of the thread from Teheran to Tehran since that’s the common spelling used here.
Last edited by Access Denied on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote incorrectly attributed to Miles
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