Tehran 1976

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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby nablator » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:26 am

Thank you AD for the breakdown of these points that are so confusing to us frenchies. As always exotic cases look more compelling than those that can be investigated in our country. The same is true for Leslie Kean with her emphasis on french cases and COMETA report. Possible interactions between military intelligence and the Iranians pilots, and later the UFO community, actually promoting the ETH, in order to hide much more down-to-earth mistakes and incompetence seems plausible. However, I'm not buying your soviet interceptors theory yet. I still find disturbing that Mooy's memo did not express any doubt about the "facts" given by the Iranian officials and seemed to just take the story at face value. All the details about the chase, the control tower, the landed ufo with the nearby beeper that could not be retrieved, etc. sound too weird to be part of an entirely made up story. Why not keep in simple? Is this a case where the US intelligence is part of the disinformation campaign, and why? All this doesn't make sense, neither as a pure military screw-up nor as a PSYOP-style ufo promotion campaign directed at the ruskies. Maybe both?

Some of us in France have been speculating that Philip J. Klass may have actually known the answers from his military contacts and chose to ignore most of the complexity of the case, maybe subtly hinting with his incomplete debunking that there was more about the case that he could not disclose, for example vulnerabilities of the electrical systems of the F-4.

I've been reading Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men, and while he doesn't say much about this incident, unconvincingly pointing at some fake UFO operations that were supposedly taking place at the russian border, I've been entertaining the idea that maybe several drones, missiles or flares could account for the "jumps" described by Jafari, one lighting up when the other switched down its conspicuous light show, purposefully playing with the nerves of iranian pilots. A test?

Jafari's account in Leslie Kean's book sounds like a (many times) reconstructed story from memory that may have significant gaps and distortions. Who knows what really happened...
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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Mooy's report was just that. It was only reporting what happened as reported by the pilots and was to make no conclusions. A good officer is just going to provide all the information without comment so those higher in the chain of command can determine what, if anything, to do about it. Privately, he may have questioned the stories but he was not going to put that in his report.
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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby Gilles F. » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:22 pm

Thank you very much for your feed-backs Tim and Tom, very interresting and informative ! Will learn all of the texts and inputs you furnished in order to summerize a day (very buzzy :( ) for our french forum and readers.

P.S. I hope you don’t mind but I changed the title of the thread from Teheran to Tehran since that’s the common spelling used here.
===> I'm annoyed :oops: (joke)

Best Regards,

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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:25 pm

nablator wrote:Possible interactions between military intelligence and the Iranians pilots, and later the UFO community, actually promoting the ETH, in order to hide much more down-to-earth mistakes and incompetence seems plausible. However, I'm not buying your soviet interceptors theory yet.

Nor should you, obviously I don’t really have any evidence to support it. It is however a hypothesis I think needs to be ruled out by anyone interested in getting to the bottom this… assuming that’s even possible which I think most of would agree probably isn’t at this late date.

nablator wrote:I still find disturbing that Mooy's memo did not express any doubt about the "facts" given by the Iranian officials and seemed to just take the story at face value.

As Tim pointed out, that wasn’t really his job. His job with the MAAG was to (A)ssist and (A)dvise the Iranians, in this case with the F-4s we sold to the Shah of Iran…

Phantom with Iran
http://www.f-4.nl/f4_44.html

The first batch of F-4Ds arrived in Iran on September 8, 1968, with a total of 32 F-4Ds being ultimately delivered to the Imperial Iranian Air Force. Iranian F-4Ds were used in several unsuccessful attempts to intercept Soviet MiG-25s that were spying on Iran.

So we see this happened less than two weeks after they got them.

nablator wrote:All the details about the chase, the control tower, the landed ufo with the nearby beeper that could not be retrieved, etc. sound too weird to be part of an entirely made up story.

Understood, however that may have been the point. On the other hand, if we accept the events happened more or less as recorded in the memo, the problem then becomes trying to figure which if any parts of the narrative are accurate given what we know about human perception and how easy it is to become disoriented in an aircraft at night, not to mention in a stressful situation with little to no experience.

nablator wrote:Why not keep in simple? Is this a case where the US intelligence is part of the disinformation campaign, and why?

In this case it appears US officials had very little to do with it other than no comment.

nablator wrote:All this doesn't make sense, neither as a pure military screw-up nor as a PSYOP-style ufo promotion campaign directed at the ruskies. Maybe both?

Why doesn’t it make sense as a screw-up by the Iranians? Does trying to fire on an unknown make any sense to you? That’s an act of war… what if they actually did?

nablator wrote:Some of us in France have been speculating that Philip J. Klass may have actually known the answers from his military contacts and chose to ignore most of the complexity of the case, maybe subtly hinting with his incomplete debunking that there was more about the case that he could not disclose, for example vulnerabilities of the electrical systems of the F-4.

I suppose that’s possible but like the rest of us, Klass only had anecdotal accounts of what supposedly happened that were given to us by the Iranians to go by. Where’s the military radar data and recordings of their communications for example? There’s really nothing to debunk here…

nablator wrote:I've been reading Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men, and while he doesn't say much about this incident, unconvincingly pointing at some fake UFO operations that were supposedly taking place at the russian border, I've been entertaining the idea that maybe several drones, missiles or flares could account for the "jumps" described by Jafari, one lighting up when the other switched down its conspicuous light show, purposefully playing with the nerves of iranian pilots. A test?

It does sound like maybe some missiles were involved and the UFO "landing" does sound like a flare.

nablator wrote:A test?

By the US? Not likely in my opinion. By the Soviets? They would certainly have a motive and as noted above, a history of spying on them, but then the question becomes one of capabilities to account in some way for all aspects of the story. For example, consider this from Pirouzi’s account given to the Enquirer…

“Running short of fuel, the pilot was ordered to return to base. It was 4 o'clock in the morning now. The light from the ground was no longer visible. The sky was clear of all flying objects except the mother UFO.

Slowly, it started to climb. It became smaller and smaller. And then it was gone.”


According to Pirouzi, the first report of the “mother UFO” (referred to as the “primary object” in the Mooy memo) came in at 1030. We know from the Mooy memo the first jet went up 3 hours later at 0130 and the second at 0140 so according to the above, the second jet was in the air for nearly 2.5 hours and the stationary “mother UFO” was visible for at least 5.5 hours.

What does that sound like to you? Did the Soviets have anything that could hover that long (apparently) over Tehran without (evidently) showing up on radar? Sounds to me like a bright star or planet and the various color changes reported both on the ground and by the second pilot could be attributed to scintillation effects. If that’s the case then I would suggest analyzing the case based on what’s in the Mooy memo with that in mind and not on any “additional detail” provided by Pirouzi and Jafai like Maccabee did and I think you’ll see a very different picture emerges…

nablator wrote:Jafari's account in Leslie Kean's book sounds like a (many times) reconstructed story from memory that may have significant gaps and distortions. Who knows what really happened...

Agreed.
Last edited by Access Denied on Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: misread date
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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby astrophotographer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:11 pm

AD, not to nitpick but the date you gave was for 1968 and this happened in 1976. So it was actually 8 years and a few weeks after they got them this all happened.
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Re: Tehran 1976

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:43 pm

That's not a nitpick, that's a huge error. Thank you for pointing it out!

By the way, in case nobody noticed, I found and corrected an error in quote attribution in my last post on the previous page.
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