RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

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RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby Access Denied » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:39 am

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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby nablator » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:09 pm

Curious choice of word, but as the journalist didn't know what he was talking about, can "instrument" mean any kind of mechanical contraption ? For an aircraft "a device or system for use in navigation or control" according to:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/instrument
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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:18 am

Well, first of all, why wouldn't the journalist know what he was talking about? The article says “according to information released by the department” (first refereed to as the “intelligence office”) and the term “instrument” is used twice in the first article and again in both of the subsequent RDR articles…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/Articles/PressReports.htm

On the other hand, the UP article says…

Brizell [sic] told the sheriff he didn't know just what the disc was, but that at first it appeared to be a weather meter.

Not sure what a “weather meter” that a rancher in 1947 would be familiar with would look like but it seems clear he figured it was an instrument of some sort and he also said in an interview later that same day…

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it."

Of course it’s possible he had never seen a RAWIN target before and he thought it was some sort of (or part of an) instrument but one wonders if he (or alternatively Marcel and CIC Agent Caviitt) might have found the sonobouy (or some other unusual component) that was launched on June 4th when they went out to the ranch with Brazel and that’s what was being covered up given the unexpected nationwide attention the story was getting might have tipped the Russians off to what the NYU personnel at Alamogordo AAF were really up to?

AN/CRT-1A Radio Sonobuoy and Hydrophone
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/sonar/img/fig16-19.jpg

Sofar (Sound Fixing and Ranging) is a long-range position-fixing system that uses explosive sounds in the permanent sound channel of the ocean. A fix is determined from the differences in arrival times, at known geographic positions, of a signal that is sent from any given point. The useful range from the signal source to the monitor stations can exceed 3,000 miles.

I normally associate the word “instrument” with anything that measures something and it seems to me if anybody thought the “disk” was an aircraft (or alien spaceship) they would have called it that.

If so, that might explain why the “debris” was sent to Ft. Worth AAF first (where it was debunked as a mere “weather balloon” in a high profile way) and then on to Wright Field (for positive ID since it may very well have been a Soviet “instrument” for spying on the nukes at Roswell given Marcel would not have been read on to Project MOGUL) and why we never heard about the sonobouy (even from Marcel in later years who died before the project was officially declassified) and why Brazel (who died well before Friedman “resurrected” the case) felt “harassed”…

[or perhaps he was just upset about not getting the $3,000 reward for a “flying disk” he heard about in Corona on Saturday before he came into Roswell to show the Sheriff what he found three weeks before]

By the same token, did the term “flying saucer” (a term that was in fact coined by the press just two weeks before after Kenneth Arnold’s sighting) used in the headline and body of the original article came from the military or the press?

I don’t know but one thing’s for sure, Project MOGUL was an instrument…



Physics for Future Presidents – Waves
Professor Richard A. Muller
Lecture Notes:
http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physics1 ... s-5-27.htm (HTML)
http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physics1 ... s-5-27.pdf (PDF)

Should the US Government ever lie? This is just the sort of issue that you should confront before you become president!

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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby nablator » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:19 pm

It is a matter of interpretation, of course. I would rather expect the weird description of the debris, inconsistent with Marcel's account, to be caused by the fact that no one knew what they were talking about when retelling the facts in the chain between Jesse Marcel and the journalist, than an early reference to the sonobuoy or something else, that was never mentioned later by the witnesses.

The strange choice of words can also be viewed as perfectly normal, considering the circumstances of the press release. Sensational news, delivered prematurely to the media in the excitement of the flying saucer craze, without checking the facts...

The extremely bad wording and many mistakes in the press release is typical of deformation of facts obtained through the grapevine. The journalist got it from Walter Haut, who (probably) wrote the press release and did not see the debris. Haut (probably) got the information from Blanchard, who did not see anything either at this time and got the information from Marcel (the intelligence officer mentioned in the press release), who saw the debris but believed they were the remains of the explosion of a craft and could not identify the materials that he saw.

In the pro-saucer UFO literature, Marcel is supposed to know everything about RAWIN targets, because he followed a "radar intelligence officer" training. However, as shown by Robert Todd, the training did not include any hands on or theoretic study of radar targets. (I read about it in Gilles F.'s book BTW.)

In the context of July 1947 any strange thing apparently fallen from the sky was a flying disk, even if it didn't look like a disk at all. There are several other cases of RAWIN radar targets in the press, about people who assumed them be one of those "disks", and reported them as such to the authorities. The reward might have been a factor too in the identification. :)

All that taken into account, the words "instrument" and "weather meter" are perfectly explainable as simple deformations of what was initially told by Marcel IMHO.
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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby jeddyhi » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:54 pm

The article also uses the word 'disk' and 'saucer' four times each, compared to only two times for instrument.

Instrument, in the context of the article, seems to imply or mean a 'device'. Much the same way that instrument implies a device when used like "An instrument of destruction or an instrument of war".

HAARP is referred to as an instrument of destruction in this article.

So yes I think it comes down to context and literal interpretation. Odd choice of word I suppose but maybe more acceptable and common back then.
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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:01 pm

I agree, not that I'm old enough to remember or anything, because I'm not. :D
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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby Gilles F. » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:50 pm

Greetings,

BTW, I believe Charles B. Moore in his interview with McAndrew and Butler in the USAF report (attachment 23 p.2) seems to show pictures of the ML307b model to those interviewers. He claims that it can be seen a discoloration which would be the famous reinforcing tape.

I have never found such pictures which Moore seems to be refering (my bad?) or any picture of a B model of ML307 and possible "derivated" before the C model. Do you know if they are still available somewhere and where you could see or analyze them? Thank you so much if possible or any indication.

Best Regards,

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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby astrophotographer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:10 am

I am not sure Giles. He may have been looking at a high quality photograph of the mogul balloon train components in the photograph section just before the Marcel pictures. Of course, those look like a 1948 or later flight, which would probably have the model C versions. Maybe he was looking at some photographs of ml-307s being used somewhere else or possibly some high quality photographs from the demonstration made at Alamogordo a few days after the Roswell event.

Actually, it might be interesting if one could obtain the original photographic images taken at Alamogordo. If they came from the same stock as the NYU team, they might show some tape with figures on them.

EDIT: After rereading the interview, he mentions this was a photograph from 1948 showing multiple targets. So, my guess is it is the same photograph shown in the photographs section just before the Marcel photographs (p. 994 in the pdf document). I have a scanned image I think I got from the CSI website at http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ml307s.jpg

EDIT 2: I am not sure what happened to all of Prof. Moore's documentation and photographs but Dave Thomas probably knows. You might want to contact him.
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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby Gilles F. » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:23 am

Thank you so much Tim,

Actually, it might be interesting if one could obtain the original photographic images taken at Alamogordo. If they came from the same stock as the NYU team, they might show some tape with figures on them.


=D>

Yeah, really interresting imho : if I well remember, Major Pritchard was here (in the demonstration), as Capt. Dryvad. And some those guys will come in september 1947 (the 10 from my memories) to meet RAAF staff with Mister Hackman (NYU-Mogul team)...

I remember too that the photos in the newspapers (the "Alamogordo news" newspaper ? I have not my documents here ) shown some "exclusive Moore technics" aka multiple radars targets use in a cluster of balloons or the ebullition technic (boiling in english?) before the launch of the balloons, launch with the help of a "stepladder".
Then, it seems that the demonstration was "prepared " with NYU/Watson Labs/Mogul guys still in Alamogordo, so the possibility that the radar targets used in this demonstration are coming from NYU team stock is possible .

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Re: RAAF Debunks Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region

Postby astrophotographer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:41 pm

Hard to say if they did or just used their own stock supply of ML-307s (if they had ML-307s). It is possible that Moore was looking at the pictures and was seeing what he wanted to see. If you expect to see tape on a reflector and think you see it, you can convince yourself that it is there. I have this problem all the time when I am looking at astrophotos of planets (as well as visual observations). You think you see a feature but you are not sure.

I recall a History channel program where they showed an ML-307 come out of a container but it probably was a C version.
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