Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby chrLz » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:32 pm

simp wrote:
Is there nothing else, just stories, most of which were either reported by Cynthia, or collected *after* Cynthia had spent time with them?? Have you noticed any problem in what was reported *immediately* afterwards, versus what then was 'uncovered'? And have you looked at who was next to do interviews? Yep, *another* ufologist... Where are the actual reports NOT from ufologists? What other experts were brought in?

Seriously, do you think this is how a real investigation goes, and that this sort of 'event' is how we will be visited by aliens?


Yet Im sure you believe JFK was assassinated right?

Why change the subject? To avoid discussing the points I made? Do you dispute any of them, and if so, in what way? Remember it was you who raised the African 'incident'. Not so keen on it now?

But its just an anecdote to you right?

YES. (Going back to the topics at hand, I mean) Unless it is properly documented and investigated by unbiased and professional, capable investigators with full documentation and discussion of the limitations and flaws inherent in that investigation, it's not just anecdotal, it is very likely JUNK, and deliberately biased JUNK..

I mean were you there?

In Africa, you mean, of course :? - NO, I wasn't. (I'm not entertaining your offtopic ramblings) Pretty silly question, really. And as is usual with me, if I wasn't there, I look for signs of a proper analysis/investigation.

Did you actually witness the event?

No, I didn't. Why do you press this point so stridently, yet not address anything I posted?

Did you hold his brains in your hand or just read about it?

Ah, so you really are desperate to get away from Africa and back to JFK, eh? Sorry, but NO, you're not getting away with that. Do you just like orating with great drama, in the hope no-one notices your avoidance?

Oh sure you saw film of it but Ive seen plenty of film of strange craft in the sky etc.

So we're back to ufo's? Good-oh! Do you mean film other than CGI or aircraft or sky lanterns? Which film evidence is your most favorite? Don't be shy - you seem to be using a lot of verbiage but when it comes down to actually, factually, addressing and analysing stuff... no. I think I know why... So prove me wrong and post your evidence. I'm pretty good at identifying objects in the sky (and fakery), so perhaps I can help?

What I want to know is why do you skeptics seem to think its so strange that conscious beings/ entities from other dimensions can indeed interact with other conscious beings/entities in other dimensions in what the Vedas call "Brahman"?

Which conscious beings are these, exactly, and where is the evidence of such interaction? You keep referring to some (presumably highly relevant) documentation/evidence, but not posting it. Why not?

For me, belief comes after the evidence provides convincing proof, not before. And if you can't see how people are milking ufology and related topics for every cent they can drain off the gullible, then perhaps you are at the wrong forum...
"To wear the mantle of Galileo, it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment. You must also be right." - Robert L. Park (..almost)
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby nablator » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:51 pm

chrLz wrote:YES. (Going back to the topics at hand, I mean) Unless it is properly documented and investigated by unbiased and professional, capable investigators with full documentation and discussion of the limitations and flaws inherent in that investigation, it's not just anecdotal, it is very likely JUNK, and deliberately biased JUNK..

True. Even worse, there is evidence of deliberately induced false memories by psychiatrist John Mack in one of the videos of the Ariel school case that, surprisingly, no one seems to notice. Leading questions are one (bad) thing, but the unethical use of mind manipulation techniques to fabricate at least a part of the story is much more revealing of the many problems with this investigation. We should discuss this case in another thread.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby DrDil » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:08 pm

ryguy wrote:Just a follow-up - I dug for an hour last night, I guess the email is pre-2009 and is in my archive that I keep locked away on a hard drive off of the Internet. I'll have to plug that beast in and sift through it this weekend. This is a tidbit that I won't forget to follow-up on, don't worry. I think, considering Vallee's recent activities, this is important to cover at this point.

-Ry

Hi again Ryan,

I was going to say when you first mentioned it that if you’d perhaps be best off starting with February/March (through to July) 2008 as this was when Vallee was most vocal about the UN UFO hoax (which is what I assume you were referencing).


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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:22 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:so basically you are doing exactly what jack did, avoiding answering any question i ask you with real and straightforward answers and avoiding backing up your claim because you cant.

thanks

rich


Rich

If we look at all the released files over the years we find that many Govts of the world have kept large files on unexplained aerial phenomena. When analyzing the files, many cases of physical craft, landing marks, strange beings getting out of the craft etc etc. not just one isolated case but hell!... thousands and thousands and thousands of these cases!!. And from all over the world - from China to Sth Africa to the desert towns of Australia to Brazil, the UK, France etc etc - Ìf we are to believe these OFFICIAL Govt files - This phenomena is being experienced by hundreds of thousands of witnesses all over the planet.

But do we see Govts keeping files on the easter Bunny, fairies, Santa Claus and leprechauns. yet RU skeptics put the UFO phenomenon in that basket.

Next Greers Disclosure Project tells us that the phenomenon and research into has been all but PRIVATIZED for various reasons [ ie follow the money ]

Personally Ive spoken to many researchers and military intelligence people and heard their cases and looked at the évidence' they presented [ ie one Australian researcher had hundreds of photographs over the years of craft, aerial phenomena etc also many accounts of eye witnesses in remote Australian towns , farmers experiencing craft , beings etc ]

I mean..the list goes on and on.. and on and on and on..Its not just one case here. We are talking in the hundreds of thousands of cases. Speak to Timothy Good. Speak to anyone who has researched this phenomena

If you want to deny this, not believe it etc that is your want. It wont make the phenomena go away. You can deny it all you want.

Personally I have seen craft in the skies numerous times [ with witnesses ] such as cigar shaped mothership, a giant flotilla of flying orbs in the shape of a triangle flying above a city at speeds easily above 25,000 mph, etc etc etc etc.

Read the vallee paper that he is presenting in Saudi. Try and understand what someone who has spent the greater part of his life investigating in detail is actually trying to say. AND ITs NOT THAT LITTLE GREEN MEN ARE VISITING.! This is NOT what the phenomena is about. [ Hint: As one mil intel guy said '' ïts all spiritual!! "' ]

The phenomenon is validating what the Ancient Vedas and the eastern religions speak about in great detail.

You dont believe in the paranormal? Read the eye witness account of the Fatima event [ witnessed by 17,000 people including many european journalists etc ] - How logical and rational was that event? DUH!!
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:41 am

Which conscious beings are these, exactly, and where is the evidence of such interaction? You keep referring to some (presumably highly relevant) documentation/evidence, but not posting it. Why not?

For me, belief comes after the evidence provides convincing proof, not before. And if you can't see how people are milking ufology and related topics for every cent they can drain off the gullible, then perhaps you are at the wrong forum...


Well - just look at any of the released Govt files - ie British MoD files or the files from Brazil etc.. perhaps speak to actual investigators - i dined with a CIA investigator of the phenomenon some years back who had done most of his ground work in China and also Australia - spent well over 3 hours discussing his work in the greatest of detail incl the investigation of Aust pilot Frederic Valentic [ google this ]

but lets get back to the files that have been released - we have apparently if we believe these official Govt files - tens of thousands of cases all over the planet of craft both physical and interdimensional [ hint: there is NO REAL Physical - everything is a mere empty form in consciousness ] and beings, landing marks etc etc, pilots, policemans eye witnesses etc etc etc..

So if nothing is going on - why are there so many files, cases etc. What about all of Greers witnesses at the NPC discussing coverups, retrievals etc..

Is all this not ëvidence?? I suppose evidence for you is its on the 6-30 news at night?
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby chrLz » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:23 am

It's getting a little noticeable that there are a lot of statements about just how many cases there are, but when asked for just one CONVINCING one, that request is completely ignored/avoided. This is the worst possible misuse of 'meta-analysis' and is the one of the key methods of choice for charlatans, hoaxers and barrow-pushers.

I could go out tonight and film ten or twenty 'ufo's' (I live near both commercial and military airports), and there would be that many more cases adding to the 'overwhelming proof'... Yes, overwhelming proof that people are uninformed about photography, aerial phenomena, basic logic and proper analysis.

Cases like the African one prove just one thing (to date) - that some (many?) ufologists will go to any lengths to further their cause, including taking advantage of the young and/or gullible. The more remote the location, the better (less competition from real analysts), and if there are cultural differences they can callously and reprehensibly use to their advantage, so much the better. It's shameful.

PS - I know the Valentich case very well, too... Do you really want to go there?

But do we see Govts keeping files on the easter Bunny, fairies, Santa Claus and leprechauns. yet RU skeptics put the UFO phenomenon in that basket.

That's a ludicrous statement. A UFO is an unidentified flying object, in other words, something that someone has seen in the sky, that cannot be properly and convincingly identified. Do you know of a skeptic who denies that many such unidentified aerial phenomena exist? What we do say (I hope I can speak for youse other guys/gals!) is that further investigation will usually identify the object, and that the remaining ones... remain unidentified. That's IT.

What we DON'T do is blithely conclude easter bunnies, Santa, leprechauns, fairies (or frigging aliens) are the cause, BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONVINCING EVIDENCE FOR THOSE HYPOTHESES. (In fact, if all unsupported evidence was allowable, I think it's fair to say that Santa is the most likely cause, using meta-analysis... 'santa' gets ten times more hits on Google than 'ufo')

Anyway, I ask again - if you have that evidence, lay it out and we'll go through it point by point - and stop wasting the forum's time on this meaningless handwaving. As a working elf, I have more important things to do...
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Zep Tepi » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:33 am

chrLz wrote:It's getting a little noticeable that there are a lot of statements about just how many cases there are, but when asked for just one CONVINCING one, that request is completely ignored/avoided. This is the worst possible misuse of 'meta-analysis' and is the one of the key methods of choice for charlatans, hoaxers and barrow-pushers.

I could go out tonight and film ten or twenty 'ufo's' (I live near both commercial and military airports), and there would be that many more cases adding to the 'overwhelming proof'... Yes, overwhelming proof that people are uninformed about photography, aerial phenomena, basic logic and proper analysis.


Absolutely chrLz. A perfect case in point from my own experience:
Last year I was sat at home watching tv at about 10pm, the kids were asleep in bed and my fiancée was outside chatting to the next door neighbour. She opened the door and told me to come outside because there was something I needed to see. As I stepped outside, the neighbour said "So Mr. UFO man, what's that then eh!" [Mr UFO man ffs!] and pointed up at the sky. Seemingly high up and moving fairly quickly from north to south was a very bright light. It was brighter than most chinese lanterns I've seen, but the way it was moving and the occasional flickering easily gave it away as being exactly that. They both looked pretty incredulous at that so I told them there would probably be another one or two coming from the same direction because they very rarely appear on their own. Right on cue, another two appeared over the horizon flying together and a few seconds after that another one. I watched the lanterns for a little while, before telling them both to keep an eye out for little green men and coming back inside the house.

There were a few more lanterns, including one which was flying much lower than the others so that they could even see the flame inside.

Anyway, the next day I was driving to pick up my daughter from school and on the way there was a news report about mysterious lights in the sky. The presenter (Peter Levy, Rich will know who I mean) was clearly having a bit of fun with the story and he played an interview live on air of a guy who had seen the lights. I shook my head and muttered to myself, when this guy comes out with "Believe me Peter, I was in the air force and I've never seen anything like it. Whatever they were, they weren't any of ours that's for sure!" Levy then told the man that he had also seen a couple of the lights for himself and they looked a lot like chinese lanterns to him. The man then reiterated the fact that he used to be in the air force and also we have nothing that can move that fast through the sky. :shock:

Hmm, ok then.

I've seen videos on You Tube of people actually being afraid and bewildered over lights in the sky, lights that are quite clearly chinese lanterns!

If "normal" people can get frightened over something as harmless as chinese lanterns in the night sky, it's hardly surprising that there are thousands of UFO reports in government files all over the world. The vast majority of the time, people don't know what it is they are seeing but ufologists and cranks use the mere fact that there are so many "unexplained" reports as proof to back up their own ludicrous claims!

Nah, it doesn't work like that I'm afraid.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:13 am

simp wrote:Yet Im sure you believe JFK was assassinated right? But its just an anecdote to you right?


It is not just an anecdote, as it is supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is extraordinary evidence that JFK was assassinated. You are speaking nonsense and everyone sees right through it. Respond to the points, do not try to change the subject. It is disrespectful to your fellow members. We are not as dumb as you think and you are not as smart as you think.

simp wrote: Oh sure you saw film of it but Ive seen plenty of film of strange craft in the sky etc.


Completely two different events. The Zaproder (sic) shows a clear, inarguable event. A film of a UFO doesn't, as you do not know the complete circumstances of what you are looking at.

simp wrote:I want to know is why do you skeptics seem to think its so strange that conscious beings/ entities from other dimensions can indeed interact with other conscious beings/entities in other dimensions in what the Vedas call "Brahman"?


Once again, you are attempting a distract and change the subject. Even if skeptics do believe so, it does not change anything. It does not make them automatically wrong or automatically right. Belief does not change facts.
If anyone can show me and prove to me that I am wrong in thought or deed I will gladly change. I seek the truth which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm. -- Marcus Aurelias
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:50 am

@ simp

ill try to make this as crystal clear as possible.

im not trying to be offensive and i care not for arguments.

i dont care for beliefs as you put it.

i dont care about claims and annecdotes.

i dont care for hypothetical philosophical ramblngs about what people like vallee etc think the visitors may or may not be.

i care about things being proven as real.

i care for people backing up their claims with real evidence.

there are millions of annecdotes and claims for every paranormal event and mythical being we can possibly imagine ranging from santa to the man in the moon but that doesn't make them true.

there are claims that almost everything we can think of is some sort of government cover up or conspiracy yet if even a small percentage were true then millions upon millions of people would have to be involved to cover these things up yet we cant get any evidence for most of them but only three people were involved in watergate and one talked........

now not once have i stated anywhere that aliens dont exist, not once have i said that its totally impossible that we have been visited, not once have i said that my "beliefs" are set in stone and unchangable...

i am quite open to all possibilities and to alter any of my views should any solid and incontrovertible evidence be brought forward for anything of the paranormal or mythical.

but one thing i will not do is accept things as facts just because people say so or have made claims.

the biggest problem is that every time i ask a claimant a straight forward question they just go off on a tangent about allsorts and never give me an answer, im already awaiting answers fron three different members of this forum and i haven't been here long!....

edit) and btw, mentioning steven greer is very silly, that guy is a fraud that posts obvious pictures of god damn moths and says they are aliens....

thanks

rich
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Why Not? » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:12 am

RICH-ENGLAND.....

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:an ex poster from ats, his name is savvys84,


I tried to help him.....

I referred him to a neurosyphillis clinic.

Kind regards
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:21 am

Why Not? wrote:RICH-ENGLAND.....

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:an ex poster from ats, his name is savvys84,


I tried to help him.....

I referred him to a neurosyphillis clinic.

Kind regards
Why Not?


welcome back my friend.

glad everyone has returned, i thought i had been deserted for a while there! lol.

im quite sure that savvys84 returned to ats under a new name but i got banned before i had chance to mention it to you.

i cant remember what the name was now but he was posting very similar claims and talking about similar subjects in the same odd style!.

thanks

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Why Not? » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:15 am

RICH-ENGLAND.....

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:i cant remember what the name was now but he was posting very similar claims and talking about similar subjects in the same odd style!.


Yes RICH me ol' mate.....

The ATS crowd let him back on.....he even used that same avatar I made for him!

He's "Angelic Resurrection" now..... just a tubby little ATS angel.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/mem/Angelic%20Resurrection

I wonder if he's still posting on those German language forums trying to pick up German chicks......he didn't like it when I posted those little "talks" of his! lol

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:13 am

simp wrote:tens of thousands of cases all over the planet

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Let’s do some math shall we?

Over some 18 years, Project Blue Book collected some 12,000+ reports.

That works out to something like 2 people per day on average out of some 200,000,000 (circa 1967) in all of the US see something in the sky they can’t identify.

199,999,998 people per day on average did not.

However, all but about 700 (95%) of those sightings were identified.

That works out to something like under 1 person per week see something in the sky that wasn’t able to be identified.

Now, in accordance with Rule 4, present your evidence in a new thread that just one of these sightings can be identified as “craft both physical and interdimensional” or retract the claim.

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:the biggest problem is that every time i ask a claimant a straight forward question they just go off on a tangent about allsorts and never give me an answer, im already awaiting answers fron three different members of this forum and i haven't been here long!....

That’s not a problem, simply repost along with a reminder of the relevant board rule any question or call for evidence from any of those members you feel wasn’t answered with something approaching intellectual honesty and if he/she doesn’t again in their very next post and I agree, they will be suspended…

Life is too short to have to suffer Trolls.

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:49 am

That works out to something like 2 people per day on average out of some 200,000,000 (circa 1967) in all of the US see something in the sky they can’t identify.

199,999,998 people per day on average did not.


wrong. Project bluebook only reports on eveidence they collected. Not all the objects seen that arent reported

You ask for evidence.. Evidence is what is evident. Govt files show that it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us. Seems thats the conclusion that Vallee et al is also making and lets face it they know more than the people on this forum
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:58 am

simp wrote:You ask for evidence.. Evidence is what is evident. Govt files show that it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us. Seems thats the conclusion that Vallee et al is also making and lets face it they know more than the people on this forum


wrong again, there is not one bit of evidence anywhere that proves there is anything visiting us"clearly not from this planet"

and again, nobody cares about what vallee concludes, we ask for proof not some random ufo guys conclusion.

and still you have yet to back up your claim or give me straightforward answers to my straightforward questions.

thanks

rich
Last edited by Access Denied on Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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