Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Zep Tepi » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:44 pm

simp wrote:You ask for evidence.. Evidence is what is evident. Govt files show that it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us.


No, evidence is evidence is evidence. What is evident is the fact that you are making one outrageous claim after another, despite repeated requests for evidence that will back up your claim(s).

This particular statement "it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us." is very specific so it won't be too difficult for you to cite a case that proves you are correct and we are all wrong.

I expect your next post to address this, thank you.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:20 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:I expect your next post to address this, thank you.


Jesus will be back before you get a straight answer from him.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:26 pm

DoomsdayRex wrote:Jesus will be back before you get a straight answer from him.


Jesus will only exist is jacques vallee decides to conclude that he does!
:D

thanks

rich
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby nablator » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:53 am

ryguy wrote:I didn't see anywhere that anyone called Vallee a fraud. In fact I've personally always promoted his control systems approach to analyzing the phenomenon.

I would like to know what you mean exactly... I never understood what's so great about the control system idea. Is it that much different from other ufological dogma? The control system meta-theory is a vague, ambiguous, unfalsifiable claim that Vallee is unable to clarify, which makes it sound like a profound philosophy. From the mildly paranoid certainty that ancient forces and shadowy groups or entities are plotting to manipulate mankind follows the uncritical acceptance of many badly investigated cases (the amazing sighting at Fort-de-France, 1965, featured in Confrontations, and only recently solved) and some hoaxes (the Cergy-Pontoise abduction).

P.S. I don't mean that belief in folklore (and its modern avatar, pop UFO culture) is not a powerful ancient force, and that no shadowy UFO-promotional group exists, but... they don't explain everything, obviously.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:05 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:wrong again, there is not one bit of evidence anywhere that proves there is anything visiting us"clearly not from this planet"

and again, nobody cares about what vallee concludes, we ask for proof not some random ufo guys conclusion.

and still you have yet to back up your claim or give me straightforward answers to my straightforward questions.


So who to believe?? Hmmm let me see.

Someone who has collected data for thirty years like vallee or all the govt files discussing craft etc or my cia contact or the military guy I know who worked at pine gap or daniel sheehan who presented evidence to US council of churches or myself who has observed craft on 5 separate occasions or do I believe rich who does not seem to know anything at all about the phenomena ?

Gosh. Such a tough decision ! LOL
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:20 am

Zep Tepi wrote:No, evidence is evidence is evidence. What is evident is the fact that you are making one outrageous claim after another, despite repeated requests for evidence that will back up your claim(s).

This particular statement "it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us." is very specific so it won't be too difficult for you to cite a case that proves you are correct and we are all wrong.

I expect your next post to address this, thank you.



Evidence actually means what is evident. Its actuallly how people get convicted in a court of law as jurors were not at the scene of the crime


So studying each countries files one must conclude from the evidence that craft under intelligent control and clearly not from known earth origin are interacting

That is what is being presented in these thousands of files. Or are they concluding that a person named santa claus exists? Are they works of fiction ?

Why do all these govt files continuously repeat observations of strange craft landing traces missing time bipedal small beings near the landed craft??
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:21 am

@simp.

you are still failing to answer questions and back up your claims.

you keep mentioning vallees name as though that somehow validates anything you say, and that things must be true just because he concludes that they are.

vallee is no more qualified to validate alien visitation than you, i or the local milkman because he has no proof just his own personal opinion and theory based on annecdotal evidence.

and you asked if you should believe me?. believe me about what?. again i have not made any claims, you have so back them up?...

thanks

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:35 am

@simp.

Evidence actually means what is evident. Its actuallly how people get convicted in a court of law as jurors were bot at the scene of the crime

again this is absolute nonsense, a court will not convict someone just based on shaky and badly collected annecdotal evidence, police, courts and lawyers know full well how bad eyewitness accounts are and would only have a case when witnesses statements are corroborated by scientific evidence...


So studying each countries files one must conclude from the evidence that craft under intelligent control and clearly not from known earth origin are interacting


absolute nonsense again, one must not conclude anything of the sort based on purely annecdotal evidence, and must just concede that if not explained and doesn't have enough information then it just remains unexplained, how can anyone conclude that something must be clearly of not from earth just because they didn't know what it was?

i mean seriously you need evidence proving its not from earth to conclude that it isnt!, just because somebody cannot explain something doesn't mean it cannot be explained full stop....

That is what is being presented in these thousands of files. Or are they concluding that a person named santa claus exists? Are they works of fiction ?


again, there is absolutely nothing in those files proving or showing that we are definitely being visited by something not of this earth, if there was then we wouldn't be here debating it!.

thanks

rich
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:35 am

@simp.

you made a little joke about santa but there's just as much if not more annecdotal evidence for santa as there is for alien visitation, and just as much real physical proveable evidence (none), so why is santa any less or more of a real phenomenon than yours?. why can you mock that as a joke when your phenomenon is no more or no less a proveable reality?.

thanks

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby simp » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:53 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:again, there is absolutely nothing in those files proving or showing that we are definitely being visited by something not of this earth, if there was then we wouldn't be here debating it!.



Courts convict people all the time on shaky evidence. Google lindy chamberlain

So rich if you were asked to prove you are actually upside down could you in fact do this. ? Its really the people on the opposite side of the planet who are the right sideup

If vallee is not qualified to discuss strange craft under some form of control am I?


As I have seen craft on numerous occasions. Should I believe what I have seen with my own eyes and shared with witnesses?

I presume you have not observed such or would have a different opinion correct?
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:57 am

simp wrote:wrong. Project bluebook only reports on eveidence they collected. Not all the objects seen that arent reported

That’s true but please present your evidence that more than 2 people a day in the US on average see something in the sky they can't identify or more importantly, more than 1 person per week sees something that can’t be identified based on the information at hand.

I would agree that it most likely happens more than that (how much more who knows?) but then we can only speculate why they didn’t report it. Perhaps it’s because they weren’t all that worried about it or, as it seems most ET proponents believe, it’s because of the fear of ridicule. Either way it’s irrelevant…

[and I would argue ET proponents only have themselves to blame for the ridicule]

The point is very few out of some 300,000,000 people now in the US report UFOs and only 701 out of the 12,618 UFOs reported to the Air Force over some 20 years remained unidentified, 0 of which were able to be identified as alien spaceship.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:15 am

simp wrote:
Zep Tepi wrote:I expect your next post to address this, thank you.

That is what is being presented in these thousands of files.

You were asked to present a single case to back up your claim that "it is clearly evident that craft under some form of intelligent control clearly not from this planet are somehow interacting with us." or retract it.

If you don’t do this in your first post after you come back from your one week suspension, you will be banned permanently.
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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:18 am

@simp

Courts convict people all the time on shaky evidence. Google lindy chamberlain


yes, they do, but as i already stated, they do not convict or even make a case based on purely annecdotal evidence, you are being disengenuous with every single post by taking them slightly out of context and not addressing each point properly, deflecting and avoiding questions, and still avoiding backing up claims by going off on a tangent of nonsense.....

So rich if you were asked to prove you are actually upside down could you in fact do this. ? Its really the people on the opposite side of the planet who are the right sideup


i never claimed to be upside down so i have no need to prove it unlike you and your claims, BUT if i did claim it and i was actually upside down then yes i could prove it quite easily to anyone that wasn't just gonna dismiss real physical proveable evidence with some sort of hypothetical philosophical ramble about the perceived reality as i expect you would do...

the earth is spherical and gravity keeps us on the ground no matter which side of the planet we are on, my feet being towards the ground and my head being towards the sky would count as me being the right way up and needs to be to keep blood from rushing to my head, now if i am the opposite way and my head is pointing to the ground and my feet to the sky then that would class as me being upside down relative to the ground, it is irrelevant which way anyone on the other side of the planet is facing...

If vallee is not qualified to discuss strange craft under some form of control am I?

not once did i claim vallee is unqualified to DISCUSS anything, anybody can discuss what they please, and yes you are qualified to DISCUSS whatever you like.
but he is no more qualified than you or i to say or conclude ufos are factual alien craft and not of this earth because he has no proof of this, its just his opinion and his conclusions do not make anything true or factual...

As I have seen craft on numerous occasions. Should I believe what I have seen with my own eyes and shared with witnesses?


you do realise that just because you claim it does not make it true. again its just an annecdote to me, and you could be mistaken in what you saw as many many people do make mistakes, even trained military observers.

I presume you have not observed such or would have a different opinion correct?


wrong, i have actually had a strange sighting that I could not explain but that does not make it unexplainable nor does it make it automatically alien!...

and that is one of the reasons im so interested, but i want truth and proof not someone's story.


thanks

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Re: Case closed (to logic and rational thinking)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:52 am

simp wrote:Evidence actually means what is evident. Its actuallly how people get convicted in a court of law as jurors were not at the scene of the crime


This particular argument is starting to become a logical fallacy in and of itself.

While we are all prone to making logical fallacies, as it is part of the human condition, this one is rather odious and it tells you everything you need to know about the person who makes it. This argument demonstrates the person making it is completely scientifically-illiterate.
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Re: Thread title could be clearer ;)

Postby franspeakfree » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:30 am

m0r1arty wrote:
jacksarfatti wrote:Rich, look at your photo how you present yourself to the world and



So it's possible that testing the waters of potential ETs visiting Earth could benefit mankind by unifying it through the lie of aliens who are obviously unaccountable, hidden behind the fact they don't exist and able to 'terrorize' or 'benefit' as the situation calls for. Mind control through an unseen, and unprovable, threat - similar to modern terrorism in the USA.
-m0r


m0r,

I have kept the video in the quote above because I think everyone should watch it.

I wish to take this opportunity beforehand to clarify my stance on the speaker in the video. I do not trust her since the first time I read about her I felt that she had an agenda, and the company she keeps is well worth keeping a beady eye on. That said, her points are valid in the video and should be treated as such.

I have the same beliefs as many it appears, that is possible to social engineer a population via a web of lies and deciet in regards to ET presence.

The fact that big corporations are possible sources of funding to pull such a thing off is completely off the scale. To discuss marketing and business opportunities with so called ET presence is astounding. if this really becomes a reality then there would be a consideral amount of apprehension in my mind as to whether or not the whole ET presence 'disclosure' was indeed manufactured. I keep an open mind but if there is one thing I have come to learn over the years no one can be trusted.
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