1950 FBI UFO Document

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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby IsaacKoi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:42 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:I've just had a look at your post(s) on ATS and I have to say that is the best damn collection of information on this matter that I've seen. It's an entire article (and then some) and deserves to be published as such.


Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them.

I know you have your own website under construction, but if you don't plan on hosting this information there, I would love to host it here on the main site.


I couldn't be bothered with the time and effort dealing with the technical side of putting that information on my own website (which is likely to remain under construction indefinitely - which reminds me that I need to push back the launch date indicated on my draft home page!).

ATS was the easiest technical solution for me, but I'd be more than happy for you to put my material on Reality Uncovered. The point of doing the work was to try to reduce the nonsense being written and having it appear here may help with that goal - although I remain fairly confident these particular issues will arise again in the not-too-distant future...

All the best,

Isaac
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:23 pm

Excellent, thank you Isaac.
I'll get it put together for going online either tonight or tomorrow.

Cheers,
Steve
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby ryguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:20 pm

Wow...nicely done Isaac. That's about as good a piece as any I've read in a long time. I'm becoming more and more convinced that mainstream journalists are completely inept, and that the real stories come from guys like you that actually take the time to research.

Nice work man.

-Ryan
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby IsaacKoi » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:08 pm

ryguy wrote:Wow...nicely done Isaac. That's about as good a piece as any I've read in a long time.


Thanks Ryan. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

ryguy wrote: I'm becoming more and more convinced that mainstream journalists are completely inept


I don't think they are "completely inept" - I just think many mainstream journalists consider ufology to be a joke and simply cannot be bothered applying their usual standards of research to this topic.
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Flying Saucers From Venus Come to Earth

Postby Access Denied » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:14 am

IsaacKoi wrote:Ok, I've now posted my rather lengthy piece on this farce on ATS at the link below:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread689049/pg1

(I thought this material may be of interest to you guys - probably more so than to many on ATS. ...)

Absolutely, an impressive piece of work I found both timely and helpful to my own research. Thank you for sharing. My comments below (in no particular order) but business first…

IsaacKoi wrote:I couldn't be bothered with the time and effort dealing with the technical side of putting that information on my own website (which is likely to remain under construction indefinitely - which reminds me that I need to push back the launch date indicated on my draft home page!).

I don’t suppose we can interest you in a WordPress account so you can post any future work yourself on our blog? No length restrictions and you’ll find the full-featured WYSIWYG editor is as easy to use as Microsoft Word (my editor of choice). Send us a PM if you’re interested in checking it out.

IsaacKoi wrote:ATS was the easiest technical solution for me, but I'd be more than happy for you to put my material on Reality Uncovered.

Oh come on, who do you think you’re fooling? Everybody knows you’re a paid disinfo agent on the payroll at ATS... :)

IsaacKoi wrote:While the very brief article by Dave Thomas did not give a reference for information credited to William Moore, I’ve tracked it down to a MUFON Symposium paper (Moore, 1985). […] I’ve taken the liberty of including those paragraphs below (since I do not think they are available online elsewhere and the relevant publication is not very easy to obtain)

Not sure who posted it first but it should be noted Dave posted a copy that Chris Allen dug up here…

http://www.nmsr.org/hottel.htm

IsaacKoi wrote:Contrary to the version of events relayed by some researchers (particularly sceptics), the Air Force did not merely pass on the Wyandotte Echo article to Hottel at the FBI. The Air Force put a reasonable amount of effort into investigating the story. It interviewed several of those involved.

You’re right, I for one should have known better than to not double-check Bill Moore’s assertion that the AFOSI simply passed the story they read in the paper on without investigating it at all. In retrospect, I can see how it would fit his agenda to imply that.

IsaacKoi wrote:The National Archives include various memos relating to that Wyandotte Echo article, including one that attaches the text of that article.

[slaps forehead]

I don’t know why I didn’t think to check the Project Blue Book files, thanks for the tip. I see now the Air Force exercised due diligence as evidenced by the following 16 (redacted, second release) pages from the OSI investigation with the amusing title of…

Unconventional Aircraft (Flying Saucers From Venus Come to Earth)

[“By Accident Says Rudy Flick, Ford Dealer” according to the headline of the article in question]

http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613458

[clicking on the right arrow at the page linked above on Footnote should go to the following pages linked below]

http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613463
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613464
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613467
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613470
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613472
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613475
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613479
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613482
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613485
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613488
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613490
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613493
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613496
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613498
http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613501

Their investigation started shortly after the Kansas City, Kansas Wyandotte Echo article was published on 6 JAN 50 and was closed on 31 March 1950 (for reference the Hottel memo is dated 22 MAR 50) by SA Lawrence A. Applebee with the following...

All logical leads have been developed and reported. This investigation will be considered CLOSED in the files of the 13th District, Office of Special Investigations.

Of course this pales in comparison to the reported hundreds of pages on file at the FBI concerning the folks behind this elaborate hoax… not to mention those they’ve gathered on a number of well known UFO “researchers” over the years since. ;)

Interestingly, I’ve yet to see any indication the FBI, at least in writing, was very forthcoming with Air Force investigators with whatever they already had on these scammers… unless that indication is the fact they closed the case right after the Hottel memo was written.

[note the undeveloped lead to locate and interview the elusive “Dr. G”]

Anyway, thanks again. Your knowledge of UFO history (particularly the literature) is, in my opinion, paralleled by very few.

AD
Last edited by Access Denied on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix typo
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Re: Flying Saucers From Venus Come to Earth

Postby IsaacKoi » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:44 pm

Access Denied wrote:an impressive piece of work I found both timely and helpful to my own research. Thank you for sharing.


Thanks for the compliments AD.

Access Denied wrote: I don’t suppose we can interest you in a WordPress account so you can post any future work yourself on our blog?


Thanks, really, but the thought of learning to use yet another bit of software - however easy - does not appeal to me...


Access Denied wrote:You’re right, I for one should have known better than to not double-check Bill Moore’s assertion that the AFOSI simply passed the story they read in the paper on without investigating it at all. In retrospect, I can see how it would fit his agenda to imply that.


I must say that I found it a curious error for Bill Moore to make, given that he had obviously read these Air Force documents...

Access Denied wrote:http://www.footnote.com/image/#9613458

[clicking on the right arrow at the page linked above on Footnote should go to the following pages linked below]


The problem with the footnote.com images (while a VERY handy resource, which I keep meaning on highlighting on ATS etc in a new piece that I've been thinking about to try to encourage more searches of it) is that footnote.com used the REDACTED memos with names blacked out rather than the available UNREDACTED ones - hence my including both versions of some of the key Air Force documents in my post (i.e. the more readable but incomplete redacted ones and the less clear but more complete unredacted ones).

All the best,

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Re: Flying Saucers From Venus Come to Earth

Postby Access Denied » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:30 am

IsaacKoi wrote:Thanks, really, but the thought of learning to use yet another bit of software - however easy - does not appeal to me...

That’s OK, just checking. I wasn’t sure where you were coming from at first but I see now I should probably be glad you didn’t take me up on the offer. In hindsight your material appears much better suited to the tin-foil hat crowd at ATS and isn’t exactly up to RU standards. Among other things, I thought it curious you didn’t provide links to your sources for the AF documents in your OP on ATS and you branded the redacted ones, and given you ignored the fact I pointed out the ones I linked to were from the redacted (second) release of the PBB files in your reply, and this post today on ATS offering to help promote a known fraud (Hastings) promote another known fraud (Salas) promote a known hoax (Malmstrom) for profit…

IsaacKoi wrote:Hi Robert,

Curious. I was able to post there (including mentioning that Radford's article, while much better than most relevant press articles, repeated several errors made by other without apparently checking the underlying Air Force documents) without any problems.

Would you like me to try posting your comments there (attributed to you, of course)?

All the best,

Isaac

...I’m sorry, I’m afraid I’ve lost all respect for you.

Apparently you didn’t follow the link to Dave Thomas’ page I provided and you neglected to point out to the members of ATS that before Hastings was against this hoax, he was for it as evidenced by this article posted there courtesy of Robert Schaeffer from the Houston Chronicle in 1985 …

http://www.nmsr.org/houston.jpg

LITTLETON, Colo. - Government officials may put down UFOs as science-fiction bunk, but a UFO researcher said they can't deny the contents of a top-secret memo sent to then-FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover in 1950.

[...]

The memo is one of hundreds of secret government documents proving the existence of UFOs according to Robert Hastings, an independent UFO researcher from Albuquerque. Hastings, 35, was in town to speak on the Arapahoe Community College campus Monday night, one-stop on his national lecture circuit.

[...]

The brief memo doesn't reveal what happened to the bodies or the flying saucers. Hastings, working with former National Security Agency employee W. Todd Zechel, is striving to end the mystery through investigation and by pressing for release of more secret documents.

Some “researcher” eh?

And so much for “denying ignorance”…

AD

P.S. It should be noted the Project BLUE BOOK file documents in the NARA collection at Footnote are searchable (thanks to OCR technology) making the issue of private citizen’s names (not all) being redacted to protect their privacy somewhat of a red herring in my opinion. How would you like someone like Hastings beating down your door?
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Re: Flying Saucers From Venus Come to Earth

Postby IsaacKoi » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:17 am

Access Denied wrote:
IsaacKoi wrote:In hindsight your material appears much better suited to the tin-foil hat crowd at ATS and isn’t exactly up to RU standards.


Er, okay.

Oh well.

Bye.

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JFK,CIA and UFOs

Postby longhaircowboy » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:45 pm

I didn't want to start a new thread so I thought I'd tack this on here. Apparently there's a new doc out that links JFK,the CIA and UFOs.
A story that combines UFO cover-ups with the assassination of John F. Kennedy is a gold mine for conspiracy theorists. And that's just what author William Lester says he uncovered while conducting research for a new book on Kennedy: a memo written by JFK and addressed to the CIA in which the president requests confidential information about UFOs.
In the never-before-seen, top secret memo supposedly written on Nov. 12, 1963, the president ordered the CIA director to organize the agency's intelligence files relating to UFOs, and to debrief him on all "unknowns" by the following February. Ten days later, Kennedy was assassinated.
The newly surfaced document is bound to add fuel to the undying fire surrounding the president's death. But first things first: Is the document authentic? [Top 10 Conspiracy Theories]

http://www.space.com/11452-declassified ... ation.html
The doc is at that site. Its not easy to read but I didn't see the actual word UFO on it so we're left to assume that the reference to "knowns and unknowns" is to UFOs. Also there seems to be some debate as to whether its real or fake like the "burned memo". And supposedly this all ties into the CIA plot to kill JFK.
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:00 pm

oh dear....

roll on over 200 crazy threads on ats....

thanks

rich
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby James Carlson » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:50 pm

A few thoughts after a first read: I find it interesting that he differentiates between "bona fide as opposed to classified CIA and USAF sources." It suggests that not all "classified" discussions of UFOs are "bona fide" unknowns. The fact that half of the UFO reports throughout the 1950s and 1960s have been attributed to U-2 flights at extreme altitudes suggests that he may be separating them for this reason. UFO reports made to or by the USAF would not be considered "bona fide" UFOs if the CIA later correlated U-2 flights with the sightings. This would invariably result in the USAF maintaining classified UFO reports that the CIA linked to U-2; the classification, of course, would still have been maintained, but the reports would not qualify as "bona fide" UFOs, having been identified by the CIA. They wouldn't be considered true "unknowns" and they would have been classified for reasons of national security. The fact that Kennedy (if it's not a fake memo; personally I don't see any reason to consider it a fake, but if the question has been raised, somebody else must have, I suppose) wanted this done in preparation for a future attempt to interest the USSR in "joint space and lunar exploration", and that he was specifically interested "high threat cases" for the purpose of differentiating between the "classified" and the "bona fide" just in case the Soviets suspected for some reason that the actual purpose for such missions would be intelligence gathering also suggests this. "High threat cases" would presumably be those UFO sightings that were classified for national security reasons, but were also identified as having originated with U.S. aircraft like the U-2 that he would not want anybody to discuss in the context of a joint space mission with the USSR. At the same time, it would be embarrassing if someone raised the issue of a UFO that the Soviets had already correlated with a U-2 flight, or otherwise suspected the U.S. to be responsible for.

Another thing needs to be considered as well. If the USSR were to assert that we were making the offer for intelligence gathering of their defence and space program, we would be better able to dismiss that notion while preserving our own secrets if we could more readily discuss Soviet intelligence gathering, something I'm certain must have been considered as an explanation for UFO reports that our own secret aircraft were not responsible for. In this interpretation, "high threat cases" would simply refer to those UFO reports that we suspected the Soviet Union to be responsible for. This is also supported by the proposal to share such information with NASA mission directors to enable them to better discharge their own defensive responsibilities, "defensive" indicating a concern with maintaining the secrecy of already classified NASA mission command and control. The confusion that existed between government offices being on different pages regarding what knowledge was actually available to each related to what was known and classifed or unknown and classified must have been significant. It could easily be repaired, however, by simply establishing a limited program of data sharing, which is exactly what he's proposing in the memo.

All of these reasons would require the need to differentiate between "bona fide" and merely "classified" in the event the issue of UFOs was introduced into the conversation with the USSR. In my opinion, the fact that he refers to all of it as a "data review" at the very least suggests some knowledge of pre-identification of the sources. It's likely that we're not talking about "true" UFOs; we're talking about UFOs reported that we don't really want to identify in public, or even in private to the USSR, because we already know what they are, and we're very well aware of the fact that they are indeed being used for gathering intelligence of Soviet space and defence capabilities, which is exactly the issue Kennedy is most concerned with in the memo.
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Re: 1950 FBI UFO Document

Postby Frank Stalter » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:00 am

From Popular Mechanics, not exactly a deep-digging news organization . . .

http://bit.ly/m6DvsR

Gerald Haines, of the National Reconnaissance Office, provides no stats whatsoever to back up this claim. He says it and people who don't want to believe believe him. The FBI doc is interesting because Hottel was a top Hoover aide and Hoover was, of course, the FBI Director. Hoover wanted UFO information but wasn't getting the best of it. There's a reason for that. http://ufopartisan.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-revealed-by-fbi-ufo-memos-truman.html
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Re: JFK,CIA and UFOs

Postby Access Denied » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:52 am

longhaircowboy wrote:...supposedly this all ties into the CIA plot to kill JFK.

Hmmm, so let me see if I got this conspiracy "theory" straight...

As a result of this alleged "explosive" memo "they" hatch the perfect plot to kill him ten days later without a trace to keep him from exposing the "truth" about UFOs... but "they" don't destroy the memo.

Who comes up with this stuff?
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Re: JFK,CIA and UFOs

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:23 pm

Access Denied wrote:
longhaircowboy wrote:...supposedly this all ties into the CIA plot to kill JFK.

Hmmm, so let me see if I got this conspiracy "theory" straight...

As a result of this alleged "explosive" memo "they" hatch the perfect plot to kill him ten days later without a trace to keep him from exposing the "truth" about UFOs... but "they" don't destroy the memo.

Who comes up with this stuff?


and don't forget Tom, it was the driver that did it.... 8) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

thanks

rich
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