Ancient aliens

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Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:58 am

I've been watching History Channel's Ancient Aliens series and would love to hear some factual criticism of the ideas presented there. I couldn't find anything on the subject here, at first look.

I'm sure that many people see red when they see Erich von Däniken interviewed on any show. :D

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:23 pm

To narrow it down, one of the claims is that structures, such as the monuments on Malta or the Pumapunku in Boliva couldn't have been built, using stone age technology.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby Tim Hebert » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:28 pm

ufosense wrote:I'm sure that many people see red when they see Erich von Däniken interviewed on any show


I find it interesting that von Daniken, when he wrote "Chariots of the Gods", didn't hold much stock in this hypothesis, but thought the subject deserved due consideration. He only came around, a decade later? and wholeheartedly endorsed ancient alien presence, possibly due to some of his/others research in Central and South America, ie, Inca ruins and stone carvings.

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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:58 pm

Saying that something "couldn't have been built, using stone age technology" is a catch-all excuse I don't put much faith in. You can build anything you want from stone if you've got 10,000 people willing to help out or forced to help out. Anybody who says differently doesn't have a very firm grasp of what humans are capable of. It's the motivation that's hard, not the construction.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:36 pm

James Carlson wrote:Saying that something "couldn't have been built, using stone age technology" is a catch-all excuse I don't put much faith in. You can build anything you want from stone if you've got 10,000 people willing to help out or forced to help out. Anybody who says differently doesn't have a very firm grasp of what humans are capable of. It's the motivation that's hard, not the construction.


Having 10,000 workers will certainly increase the quantity of stones that could be cut and put in place (such as in pyramids), but it doesn't explain the apparent quality of the workmanship and the organization.

To build something monumental - ignoring claims of extra-terrestrial help - would require 1) huge workforce, as you point out, 2) but also engineering skills (as well as managerial skills) and 3) precision tools, right? If we again disregard the extra-terrestrial hypotheses, we seem to have hugely underestimated the skills and technology of our ancestors.

I agree with you that it is just too easy to explain everything with aliens. Therefore I would love to get convincing explanations of earthly origin.
Last edited by ufosense on Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:38 pm

Tim Hebert wrote:
ufosense wrote:I'm sure that many people see red when they see Erich von Däniken interviewed on any show


I find it interesting that von Daniken, when he wrote "Chariots of the Gods", didn't hold much stock in this hypothesis, but thought the subject deserved due consideration. He only came around, a decade later? and wholeheartedly endorsed ancient alien presence, possibly due to some of his/others research in Central and South America, ie, Inca ruins and stone carvings.

Tim


He does look a used car sales man, doesn't he? :D I'm trying though to separate the messenger from the message, as it is so easy to dismiss the latter because of the former.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby Illudium Q-36 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:21 pm

Well I'm glad you narrowed it down a bit, there are many different aspects to the series that could be covered. Given enough time I'm sure they can be discussed too.


What is wrong with the explaination given in wiki for Pumapunku and why would that be less believable then the AA theory?
Sure it's not difinitive as it was a long time ago and we never may know the exact process but we do know an awful lot about how it was built as mentioned in the 'Engineering' write up of the wiki article. That's the thing with these History(lol) Channel specials, they only air the biased argument and don't offer any skeptical criticism at all.
You are led to believe that 'we seem to have hugely underestimated the skills and technology of our ancestors' when infact it doesn't seem that we have and modern day engineers say that it would be possible. This paper is quite an interesting read too..........http://aztec-inca-project.wikispaces.co ... k-LONG.pdf . Stoneage technology seems quite capable.

More is understood than von Däniken will tell you anyway, and certainly more comprehensively understood than the "we can't say for sure so it must be aliens" crowd.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby astrophotographer » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:35 pm

ufosense wrote:If we again disregard the extra-terrestrial hypotheses, we seem to have hugely underestimated the skills and technology of our ancestors.


I think the only people who have underestimated the skills and technology of the Egyptians are those who want to portray the construction as impossible. Plenty of people have demonstrated how it was done and that it did not require significant technology. All it took was the will and manpower to do it. They had both. Just some links:


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/who-built-the-pyramids.html

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids

http://web.archive.org/web/20070608101037/http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/0699feat.html

The last link is pretty informative. You have to remember, the Egyptians had a bunch of trial pyramids (the step and bent pyramids to start) they built prior to building the great pyramid. They were able to perfect ther techniques and manpower allocations based on what they learned on these efforts.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:30 am

hi all.

strangely enough, ive started watching ancient aliens and have watched most episodes online in the last week, the programme is very interesting but by far the most annoying thing for me is that almost every one of the people that give their opinions are authors of some loony ufo book, i would really like to see far more counter argument from top engineers and scientists from places like m.i.t etc etc.

the second most annoying thing is georgio tsoukalos hair........ not to forget his huge leap of faith conclusion answer for everything "must have been extraterrestrials".......

thanks

rich
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:59 am

just to add,

ive worked in construction since i left school and even i know there are some very simple ways to make things flat and square by hand using string, different couloured blocks and many other methods that would be available to the ancients, now dont get me wrong it would still have been very very difficullt, time and labour intensive but most of what ive seen is far from impossible and im no engineer or scientist.....

thanks

rich
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby Tim Hebert » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:40 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:the second most annoying thing is georgio tsoukalos hair........ not to forget his huge leap of faith conclusion answer for everything "must have been extraterrestrials".......

Yes...the "Flock of Sea Gulls" look does distract and enhances/distances ufology's current state of affairs.

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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby LCARS24 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:11 am

The Great Pyramid was built with geopolyer, with each stone cast in place, and it took only 20 years. Once the materials were used up, the technology was eventually lost, as well. Some later pyramids were built with sandstone, not cast. One took 1,500 years to complete.

Here's a demonstration of people making a pyramid block for real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FuJAbTmaLI

The narrator of the video is Dr. Joseph Davidovits, who discovered in the 1970s how it was done.

Pyramid limestone can be distinguished from natural limestone only with a powerful microscope. A famous geologist once looked (using the pocket microscope he always carries) at a piece that Dr. Davidvits had made and incorrectly pronounced it natural, refusing to believe otherwise.

Here's a well-researched book that documents it in great detail:

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Sec ... 0972043462

The author has worked with Dr. Davidovits since shortly after his discovery and coauthored some of his books.

By the way, the outside facing stones were stolen about 700 years ago to rebuild Cairo after a major earthquake. You can see a few remaining facing stones near the top, still in good condition.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:03 am

I want some of what that guy is smoking ...
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby LCARS24 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:38 pm

The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:15 pm

LCARS24 wrote:Oh well, here a few of the many references to be found in a quick search. No mention of Mary Jane.

Very interesting, I agree. It's a subject certainly worth pursuing. I take it that you're not introducing this as evidence of ancient alien interaction, but merely as the method of construction actually used, yes?

The only problem that I can see with this theory without actually conducting the level of research it deserves -- and it isn't a major problem, so please don't think I'm being close-minded here; I agree, it's worth exploring -- is the tremendous amount of evidence regarding the quarrying efforts undertaken, the cities that were built for those working on the pyramids, and the absence of any associated evidence whatsoever involving the use of molds, etc., necessary to create blocks in this manner. In my opinion, we need more than merely the fact that it was possible to establish its actual use. If this method was being used, I think there would be more evidence to substantiate that fact. That being said, you can't prove the negative with reliability.

LCARS24, I was dismissive earlier without looking closer at the claims being made, and for that I apologize. I assumed you were bringing up something similar to what I've heard regarding the "psychic gluing" of liquified stone that's been discussed elsewhere regarding the Inca's methods of high-altitude construction in South America, and I just didn't want to hear about it. As for the technique you've brought up, I still don't think the ancient Egyptians built their pyramids using the same or a similar method, but I do agree that it was certainly possible, if I understand it properly, and I should have realized that immediately instead of making an assumption based on my own prejudices.
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