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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Thu May 25, 2006 12:44 am

Shawnna wrote:I think it is dangerous to assume anything with respect to UFOlogy.

Although I'm pretty sure someone would be happy to debate you if you did say the earth was flat and made of swiss cheese! :lol:


i don't recall saying that the earth was made of 'swiss cheese.' actually i incline towards provolone. and i'm ready to beat yer sorry ass about it!

actually, shawnna, we're on the same page here. you know stuff that i don't know and i know stuff that you don't know. that's why we're here.

the first time i was spaganked off of the om forum had to do with my defense of shawnna, whom i didn't know. i ranted this: 'why was shawnna banned?!' and then i said this: Why was Shawnna banned??!!! and so i was banned too. you weren't there at that time because you were banned. hahahah. but the record is there. i didn't know you- but i defended you. because you were honest and pure. i still feel that way- the stan friedman stuff not withstanding. as result of my defense of you, i was termed a 'knothead stupid wanker' by admin- a badge i wear with pride to this day! hahahaha. you an i shared the idea that the serpo schtick was an incipient cult. ...a view i still hold, bye the way.

in any case, my point is that we are certainly kindred spirits in our biggg fight against assholery. so we should never fight with oneanother. that's all.

best,

kim
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Postby Shawnna » Thu May 25, 2006 8:41 am

Yes - I agree we seem to have kindred spirits - I do not suffer fools lightly and neither do you. :lol:

And I also agree that we should never fight one another. :(

I know we are all quite capable of having an open, honest, intelligent and sometimes passion-filled debate without resorting to personal attacks or other forms of negative behavior toward one another. :P

And I am committed to finding the truth - even if it means I piss someone off doing so! :lol:

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby Serpentime » Sat May 27, 2006 8:20 pm

Hi Shawnna,

I’ve been having an odd, nagging, thought for the last few weeks, so – seeing as you’ve already raised the first component of it here in this thread – I thought I might as well air it out.

Here goes…

You wrote:

Early 1983… Bill Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to his plan to create counterfeit government documents to be used to induce former military officials to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFO’s and the coverup. Sparks was very concerned and called Stanton Friedman who to Spark’s surprise, supports the idea.


Now, compare that idea to the last – often overlooked – paragraphs of the original “Request Anonymous” e-mail:

I have never seen or read anything about the exchange program. I once
heard a little bit of information from Linda Howe but she didn't have
much information.

I've monitored your emails for about six months. I've read emails from
you and others. But I've never seen nor heard the truth about the real
Roswell incident or the exchange program. I'd like to hear what others
say about this
.

Sylvester McCoglin


{Emphasis added}


By gosh, is it possible that “Request Anonymous” wasn’t trying to tell us a story, so much as he was hoping that someone else would volunteer information to him?

Is it just me, or could we all have overlooked what now appears to be a very obvious and purposeful “baited-hook-in-the-water”?

Could I be getting "warm"?


Fishing expedition to Planet Serpo, anyone?


Regards,

Serpentime
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Postby Shawnna » Sun May 28, 2006 5:12 am

Hi Serpentime,

Your post is an interesting find - so I went to the serpo.info site and reread the original Anon's email.

However, my read of it is that he is presenting the story as what he 'knows' and is trying to find out if anyone else has similar information? Maybe I am interpreting it wrong but that's my read of it.

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun May 28, 2006 2:04 pm

serp quoting shawnna (who was quoting another source): "Sparks was very concerned and called Stanton Friedman who to Spark’s surprise, supports the idea."

as has been established here, stan friedman denies this assertion. the source has no legitimacy. repeating this statement out of context does nothing to serve the interests of truth and, in fact, is harmful to ugology in general. stan's denial has been duly posted here and has not been contested by brad sparks. i had hoped that shawnna and i had put this nonsense to bed. in my opinion there are 3 ethical ufologists upon which disclosure relies- stan friedman, len stringfield and and kevin randle. friedman and randle, in fact, are two of the charter members of royce myer's hall of fame. see: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/fame1.html. and as we all know, royce does his homework (even though i've argued with him at length about his inclusion of art bell in the hall of shame!)
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Postby Shawnna » Sun May 28, 2006 4:50 pm

I'd like to just set the record straight with respect to this situation.

1. The information I have posted on my timeline was put before both Stan and Brad Sparks and both replies were posted here.
2. Stan - of course - denies it.
3. Brad - who appears to not want to engage anyone - much less the great and powerful Stan Friedman - answered my inquiry by pointing me to another source that supports the idea that Stan believes the Majestic 12 documents are fake.

If you can agree on the above three points, I believe we have common ground.

The whole point of this thread is that the Majestic 12 documents appear to have been the fabrication of Bill Moore and Rick Doty.

You appear to take exception to my own opinion of Stan Friedman - which is fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion. I do admire your tenacity to change my opinion but I base them on my own research, not on anything anyone else feels strongly about. :roll:

I can certainly imagine that back in the early 1980's, Stan may have made a supportive comment about Moore's idea to create fake documents and has now come to regret that comment. It would certainly be within the range of normal human behavior.

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun May 28, 2006 6:40 pm

Shawnna wrote:I'd like to just set the record straight with respect to this situation.

1. The information I have posted on my timeline was put before both Stan and Brad Sparks and both replies were posted here.
2. Stan - of course - denies it.
3. Brad - who appears to not want to engage anyone - much less the great and powerful Stan Friedman - answered my inquiry by pointing me to another source that supports the idea that Stan believes the Majestic 12 documents are fake.

If you can agree on the above three points, I believe we have common ground.

The whole point of this thread is that the Majestic 12 documents appear to have been the fabrication of Bill Moore and Rick Doty.

You appear to take exception to my own opinion of Stan Friedman - which is fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion. I do admire your tenacity to change my opinion but I base them on my own research, not on anything anyone else feels strongly about. :roll:

I can certainly imagine that back in the early 1980's, Stan may have made a supportive comment about Moore's idea to create fake documents and has now come to regret that comment. It would certainly be within the range of normal human behavior.

Always,
Shawnna


the source of the innuendo cited by sparks is none other than phil klass, the notorious and mendacious debunker, who for years conducted a campaign of character assassinationation against stan friedman and other serious students of ufology- (apparently with some effect.) this is a fact that is well known to brad sparks and may answer your questions as to his reticence in his response to you- i.e. that he didn't have a hell of a lot of confidence in the source he was quoting.

a little reading about phil klass and his vindictive treatment of stan friedman ought to disqualify him as a source concerning friedman's perceived lack of integrity.

http://keyholepublishing.com/New%20Klas ... 0Found.htm
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Postby Shawnna » Sun May 28, 2006 8:24 pm

With all due respect cartoonsyndicate, I do believe you have misinterpreted Brad's response to my inquiry. Here is what he said specifically:

In a brief chapter debunking the MJ-12 papers, the book reports: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed.".

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-44.html


What Brad has done is avoid my specific question about whether or not Mr. Friedman expressed support of creating documents as suggested by Bill Moore when Brad approached him in the early 1980's.

Instead he has responded by pointing me to a website that appears to support the core purpose of this thread, and that is that the Majestic 12 documents were a fabrication initiated by Bill Moore with the support of Rick Doty.

You really need to take off the "supporter of Stan Friedman" filter that you are reading everything through and go back and see exactly what Brad has responded to me with. He obviously doesn't want to engage in any kind of pissing contest with the great Stan Friedman so has focused instead on the core purpose of this thread.

And I can understand why given the obvious nature of UFOlogists to engage in backstabbing and other sort of nasty behavior now and then.

Now - can we just agree here and now to move beyond this? You obviously have thrown your support behind whatever Stan Friedman says/does - which is fine with me.

The purpose of this thread was to illustrate the fabricated history of the Majestic 12 documents - which I think has been fully accomplished.

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon May 29, 2006 8:19 pm

Well- it’s not a riddle. It’s just a long time ago. Those were speedy and chaotic times. Just a few years after the murder of JFK. Riots in Detroit and Hough and Watts, the murders of MLK and RFK, Nixon in our faces again, the democratic convention, Abbie Hoffman, Bobby Seale, Jerry Rubin, the execution of Che (1967), the birth of my daughter (whom we named ‘Che’), the march on the pentagon (1967), the new Paris Commune (1968), the rise of the anarchist syndicates, SDS, Vietnam, Muhammed Ali, Tim Leary, Baba Ram Das, Kent State, the Six Day War, Goldy Meir, People’s Park- and Alan Hynek’s swampgas in Michigan.

The world as an acid trip. You had to be there to believe it!

And so I remember this about the swampgas aliens: I met a woman who claimed to be a member of a colony of people from another world. I had no reason to disbelieve her. I was a bit freaked out, but given the tenor of the times- not very freaked out. This is what she told me: There was a colony of people from a planet called Durs (sp) that had established itself in southern Michigan- between Pontiac and Dearborn, south of Detroit, north of Toledo. They had a ship upon which they arrived hidden in a field. Their method of travel had to do with joining hands and meditation. She said that the truth of her spiel could be found in the libraries of the Ethical Culture Society. (I’ve looked and found nothing…) The reason that they were here? Study. That’s all I know. Shortly after I met her I was called by Tom Hayden to travel to NY to recruit radical terminal cancer patients to serve on the front lines at antiwar demonstrations at Columbia University. Hahahahahah. True!

A couple of years later, in Taos, I ran into a handful of Jewish hippies who decided to break with the 2000 year old prohibition against eating lamb on Passover. No small matter for them! The law stated that lamb should never be eaten at Passover until the Israelites return to Jerusalem. In 1967 Jerusalem had fallen to the Jews. And so, in this godforsaken little place in New Mexico, the law was fulfilled. I was there.

Sorry if I’m rambling. I’m getting old.
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Postby Shawnna » Mon May 29, 2006 8:38 pm

:D
Yep - I was there for most of that too!

As for the lady you met from the colony - was Timothy Leary a member? :shock:

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon May 29, 2006 9:09 pm

no. but his son was. woolsey st., berkeley
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