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Postby Shawnna » Tue May 23, 2006 7:57 pm

You're welcome, Stan!

BTW - I am trying to track down Brad Sparks to clarify the information I have included in my timeline.

I will keep all informed on this effort.

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Tue May 23, 2006 8:34 pm

Shawnna wrote:You're welcome, Stan!

BTW - I am trying to track down Brad Sparks to clarify the information I have included in my timeline.

I will keep all informed on this effort.

Always,
Shawnna


brad sparks. what credentials does he have other than being associated with pete gersten?

the truth is that anyone can claim to know the 'truth' about anything. bring him to us, flesh and blood. i look forward to the brad sparks interview.

always,
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Postby ryguy » Tue May 23, 2006 8:48 pm

fyi - Shawnna you wanted verification of Stanton. The email from Kim comes from Friedman, there's no doubt. He's living/working in Canada at the moment and I believe he has an interest in putting the rumors about him to rest. btw - his Bio here is quite interesting!

I quote here:

He has spent many weeks at a total of 20 document archives. Stan has successfully taken on many critics of flying saucers, Roswell, Majestic 12, including winning a debate at Oxford University.


Sounds like a man worth his mettle! ;)

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Tue May 23, 2006 9:12 pm

stan friedman has devoted his entire adult life to discovery. he has no agenda other than the truth behind ufology. i refuse to suffer the b.s..

if shawnna has evidence that stan friedman is some kind of disinfo agent- she needs to present it here. brad sparks is not enough. i'm really tired of the paranoia.

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Postby Shawnna » Wed May 24, 2006 12:16 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:if shawnna has evidence that stan friedman is some kind of disinfo agent- she needs to present it here. brad sparks is not enough. i'm really tired of the paranoia.

hibits


I never stated Stan was some kind of disinfo agent so please do not start that rumour.

I did receive this from Brad Sparks in email today:

"I don't know what more you actually need when there is so much out there including a book (see this from the website):
Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt in their 1994 book, "The Truth About The UFO Crash At Roswell."

In a brief chapter debunking the MJ-12 papers, the book reports: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed.".

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-44.html

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed May 24, 2006 10:20 pm

Shawnna wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:if shawnna has evidence that stan friedman is some kind of disinfo agent- she needs to present it here. brad sparks is not enough. i'm really tired of the paranoia.

hibits


I never stated Stan was some kind of disinfo agent so please do not start that rumour.

I did receive this from Brad Sparks in email today:

"I don't know what more you actually need when there is so much out there including a book (see this from the website):
Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt in their 1994 book, "The Truth About The UFO Crash At Roswell."

In a brief chapter debunking the MJ-12 papers, the book reports: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed.".

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-44.html



i don't consider phil klaas (RIP) to be a serious researcher. and yes you did accuse stan friedman of being a disinfo agent. you said this:

However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.


i'd have to conclude that his alleged support of the 'moore/doty fabrication idea' would make him a disinfo agent. no?

but the facts refute that allegation. even the great phil klass makes no such charge, nor does your 'source,' brad sparks.

so upon what reliable information did you make your charge that he supported ..." the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors."?

and upon what basis do you now "...suspect his underlying integrity and ethics...?"

are you over it?

i well understand the suspicion that subsumes this field of our endeavor. ufology is replete with all manner of schmucks and liars. my only point in all of this thread is that stan freidman is one of ours. unsnatched and brave. he belongs on realityuncovered.

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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed May 24, 2006 10:55 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:i don't consider phil klaas (RIP) to be a serious researcher.


Hi hibits, could you tell me why you say the above? Imho, the man made a lot of sense regarding a lot of subjects. He also made a lot of enemies along the way.

and yes you did accuse stan friedman of being a disinfo agent. you said this:

However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.


i'd have to conclude that his alleged support of the 'moore/doty fabrication idea' would make him a disinfo agent. no?


No, that isn't neccessarily a correct assumption to make. There are sources on the Internet that say the same thing, but I agree, that doesn't make them right. I have also read the same thing about Mr. Friedman. What we are trying to do here is look into all the different claims made by both sides of the fence and decide what the truth of the matter is. As a result of your posts above, Shawnna has gone out and contacted the source of the information relating to her statement. That's what we want to see here. You have presented your argument and commendably presented words from the horses mouth, so to speak. Shawnna has taken that on board and investigated further.

Again, IMHO only, there is no need for a discussion with a "hostile" tone to it. There's too much of that in UFOlogy as it is. I understand where it is coming from, but let's all try to be different here :)


i well understand the suspicion that subsumes this field of our endeavor. ufology is replete with all manner of schmucks and liars. my only point in all of this thread is that stan freidman is one of ours. unsnatched and brave. he belongs on realityuncovered.


Thanks for that hibits, he would be most welcome here too!

Cheers,
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Postby Shawnna » Wed May 24, 2006 11:00 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:i don't consider phil klaas (RIP) to be a serious researcher. and yes you did accuse stan friedman of being a disinfo agent. you said this:

However, with respect to Stan Friedman - I agree he presents himself as a serious researcher. Which is all well and good.

However, I am disturbed by his support of the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors. It leads me to suspect his underlying integrity and ethics which, as we can all see, is sorely wanting in this field of research.


You are right - the above is exactly what I said.

What I did NOT say is "Stan Friedman is a disinfo agent."

i'd have to conclude that his alleged support of the 'moore/doty fabrication idea' would make him a disinfo agent. no?


You can conclude whatever you want from whatever information you choose to research. And I reserve the right to do the same.

but the facts refute that allegation. even the great phil klass makes no such charge, nor does your 'source,' brad sparks.

so upon what reliable information did you make your charge that he supported ..." the Moore/Doty idea to fabricate documents as a way of opening doors."?

and upon what basis do you now "...suspect his underlying integrity and ethics...?"


I have simply shared the information Mr. Sparks gave me to date. I have not completed my research into this particular piece of information. I reserve the right to withhold forming a more definitive opinion until I do.

are you over it?

i well understand the suspicion that subsumes this field of our endeavor. ufology is replete with all manner of schmucks and liars. my only point in all of this thread is that stan freidman is one of ours. unsnatched and brave. he belongs on realityuncovered.

hibits,

aka cartoonsyndicate, eapoe, skeptical


I believe this forum's mission is to provide a place for everyone. I am not part of anyone's side - which you seem to imply exists by saying Stan Friedman is "one of ours. "

I am simply trying to find the truth - whatever it may be.

The whole point of my original post with the timeline was to show Doty's involvement in the creation of the Majestive 12 documents.

I apologize if what I have posted has offended you in any way.

Always,
Shawnna
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed May 24, 2006 11:13 pm

"What we are trying to do here is look into all the different claims made by both sides of the fence and decide what the truth of the matter is. As a result of your posts above, Shawnna has gone out and contacted the source of the information relating to her statement. That's what we want to see here. You have presented your argument and commendably presented words from the horses mouth, so to speak. Shawnna has taken that on board and investigated further. "

and what if there is no legitimacy to the 'other side of the fence?' should it still be considered? are all posits equal in their valiidity? where do we start? for instance- does the premise that 'all jews are evil' have equal standing in the argument that 'jews are good?' or is the original premise simply ridiculous on the face of it?

i trust you understand this argument. but if not- tell me- and i'll elaborate.

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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed May 24, 2006 11:21 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:and what if there is no legitimacy to the 'other side of the fence?' should it still be considered? are all posits equal in their valiidity? where do we start? for instance- does the premise that 'all jews are evil' have equal standing in the argument that 'jews are good?' or is the original premise simply ridiculous on the face of it?

i trust you understand this argument. but if not- tell me- and i'll elaborate.

hibits


The legitimacy of the argument is exactly that which needs investigation. The comparison above is simply not relevant, it's like comparing apples with quantum theory lol.

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Zep
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Postby ryguy » Wed May 24, 2006 11:48 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:and what if there is no legitimacy to the 'other side of the fence?' should it still be considered?


None of us can judge the legitimacy to the "other side of the fence" until we've examined, carefully, both sides of the argument. It's not safe to prematurely call one side or the other side illigitimate, until we get various points of view and examine the evidence (if any can be found).

are all posits equal in their valiidity?


Absolutely. All posts in this forum are equal in validity until they can be proven or disproven fairly and openly.

where do we start? for instance- does the premise that 'all jews are evil' have equal standing in the argument that 'jews are good?' or is the original premise simply ridiculous on the face of it?


Each question would face equal scrutiny. Obviously some statements are much more easily shot down than others. But yes, all statements, right wrong or indifferent on their face, need to be initially approached fairly from all sides.

All emails are verified (yes, I verified Shawnna's from Sparks as well), and the argument needs to flow all the way to conclusion - we can't make premature decisions either way until we explore all possible avenues of getting to the truth.

Right now, there's no decision on Stan OR Sparks. We need more info. I'll be truthful - I tend to believe Stan might have been given a bad rap. But I would bet Zep & Shawnna disagree strongly with that. We just can't make that final call yet. We need to move forward and learn more. Agreed?

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Postby Shawnna » Thu May 25, 2006 12:01 am

ryguy wrote:Right now, there's no decision on Stan OR Sparks. We need more info. I'll be truthful - I tend to believe Stan might have been given a bad rap. But I would bet Zep & Shawnna disagree strongly with that. We just can't make that final call yet. We need to move forward and learn more. Agreed?

-Ry


I know very little of Stan Friedman so I wouldn't venture to guess one way or the other at this point. I feel like I am still in the fact finding part of this little adventure.

I do agree - wholeheartedly - that we need to move forward and learn more! To the extent we can. Brad Sparks wasn't exactly welcoming my inquiry with open arms!
:roll:

But I have to chuckle - the whole point of this wasn't to call into question Stan Friedman's work - as much as it was to illustrate Doty's involvement in the creation of the Majestic 12 documents.

And for the digression of this thread - I take 100% responsibility. :lol:

Always,
Shawnna
Last edited by Shawnna on Thu May 25, 2006 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Thu May 25, 2006 12:09 am

jesus ry, you misunderstood my point.

what if i were to say: the earth is flat and made out of cheese.

should we debate that?

i think this forum has a certain point of departurev that precludes certain arguments. we're not starting on square one here. we must assume that there is a modicum of accepted knowledge.

if not, why are we here?
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Postby Shawnna » Thu May 25, 2006 12:17 am

I think it is dangerous to assume anything with respect to UFOlogy.

Although I'm pretty sure someone would be happy to debate you if you did say the earth was flat and made of swiss cheese! :lol:
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Postby ryguy » Thu May 25, 2006 12:19 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:jesus ry, you misunderstood my point.

what if i were to say: the earth is flat and made out of cheese.

should we debate that?

i think this forum has a certain point of departurev that precludes certain arguments. we're not starting on square one here. we must assume that there is a modicum of accepted knowledge.

if not, why are we here?


We're also assuming a certain degree of intelligence. If you say "the earth is flat" - you'll be shot down in one post (not too difficult to disprove is it? lol) and we'll move on to the next discussion.

I do understand your point, however. Not all statements made in a forum deserve equal discussion. However, I do hope you're not trying to say that the statement "the Earth is flat" is equivalent to the statement "Stan Freidman helped to perpetrate the Majestic 12 document hoax"....

You're right, maybe I missed your point?

-Ry
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