UFO over O'Hare International Airport??

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UFO over O'Hare International Airport??

Postby Serpentime » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:35 am

Hi everyone (especially Max :)),


The following article was written by Jon Hilkevitch and appeared in the Chicago tribune on January 1, 2007:
In the sky! A bird? A plane? A ... UFO?

The column describes an incident in which multiple, independent, witnesses reported an unknown object hovering over the United Airlines terminal at O’Hare International Airport, northwest of Chicago, on November 7, 2006.


{~ Earlier in the day, CNN reported the same story (I recall?).}


It sounds like a tired joke--but a group of airline employees insist they are in earnest, and they are upset that neither their bosses nor the government will take them seriously.

A flying saucerlike object hovered low over O'Hare International Airport for several minutes before bolting through thick clouds with such intense energy that it left an eerie hole in overcast skies, said some United Airlines employees who observed the phenomenon.

Was it an alien spaceship? A weather balloon lost in the airspace over the world's second-busiest airport? A top-secret military craft? Or simply a reflection from lights that played a trick on the eyes?

Officials at United professed no knowledge of the Nov. 7 event--which was reported to the airline by as many as a dozen of its own workers--when the Tribune started asking questions recently. But the Federal Aviation Administration said its air traffic control tower at O'Hare did receive a call from a United supervisor asking if controllers had spotted a mysterious elliptical-shaped craft sitting motionless over Concourse C of the United terminal.

No controllers saw the object, and a preliminary check of radar found nothing out of the ordinary, FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory said.

The FAA is not conducting a further investigation, Cory said. The theory is the sighting was caused by a "weather phenomenon," she said.

The UFO report has sparked some chuckles among controllers in O'Hare tower.

"To fly 7 million light years to O'Hare and then have to turn around and go home because your gate was occupied is simply unacceptable," said O'Hare controller and union official Craig Burzych.


Again, the rest of the article is continued HERE.


Though I would like to hear Max’s opinion of the ”preliminary check of radar found nothing out of the ordinary” statement, some of the more interesting quotes continue on as follows:


The sighting occurred during daylight, about 4:30 p.m., just before sunset.

All the witnesses said the object was dark gray and well defined in the overcast skies. They said the craft, estimated by different accounts to be 6 feet to 24 feet in diameter, did not display any lights.

Some said it looked like a rotating Frisbee, while others said it did not appear to be spinning. All agreed the object made no noise and it was at a fixed position in the sky, just below the 1,900-foot cloud deck, until shooting off into the clouds.


and


"But I know that what I saw and what a lot of other people saw stood out very clearly, and it definitely was not an [Earth] aircraft," the mechanic said.

One United employee appeared emotionally shaken by the sighting and "experienced some religious issues" over it, one co-worker said.


and


”We must be proactive before an aircraft goes down," said Haines, a former chief of the Space Human Factors Office at NASA's Ames Research Center.

Haines is investigating the O'Hare incident. He said he has determined that no weather balloons were launched in the vicinity of O'Hare on Nov. 7.

"It's absurd that the military would be conducting aerial test flights" near the airport, Haines said.

All the witnesses to the O'Hare event, who included at least several pilots, said they are certain based on the disc's appearance and flight characteristics that it was not an airplane, helicopter, weather balloon or any other craft known to man.


and


The pilots of the United plane being directed back from Gate C17 also were notified by United personnel of the sighting, and one of the pilots reportedly opened a windscreen in the cockpit to get a better view of the object estimated to be hovering 1,500 feet above the ground.

The object was seen to suddenly accelerate straight up through the solid overcast skies, which the FAA reported had 1,900-foot cloud ceilings at the time.

"It was like somebody punched a hole in the sky," said one United employee.


and


The United employees interviewed by the Tribune spoke on condition of anonymity.

Some said they were interviewed by United officials and instructed to write reports and draw pictures of what they observed, and that they were advised by United officials to refrain from speaking about what they saw.


and


Like United, the FAA originally told the Tribune that it had no information on the alleged UFO sighting. But the federal agency quickly reversed its position after the newspaper filed a Freedom of Information Act request.

An internal FAA review of air-traffic communications tapes, a step toward complying with the Tribune request, turned up the call by the United supervisor to an FAA manager in the airport tower, Cory said.



~ Finally capped off by this conclusion:


Cory said the weather might have factored into what the witnesses thought they saw.

"Our theory on this is that it was a weather phenomenon," she said. "That night was a perfect atmospheric condition in terms of low [cloud] ceiling and a lot of airport lights. When the lights shine up into the clouds, sometimes you can see funny things. That's our take on it."


{Emphasis added}



Interesting story, no?


What does everyone think?



Serpentime ;)


> As for me, I think that it’s an interesting story at this point, and that I’d like to know more about the details. :)
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Postby I.P.Freely » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:43 am

I know I feel insulted by the faa explaination And angry that my tax dollars go to people who lie to us.
"You can either trust people or not. I choose to trust what people say and sometimes I get lied to. If I were to trust no one I would never hear the truth." - James (IPF) Martell
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Postby ryguy » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:43 pm

I.P.Freely wrote:I know I feel insulted by the faa explaination And angry that my tax dollars go to people who lie to us.


I agree with that 100%. Also - the best point made in the article was the question - why would the military do any kind of flight testing directly over a commercial airport? And balloons aren't likely to shoot off punching a hole through cloud cover.

Another strong statement is the fact that one witness experienced religious effects from the incident. That speaks strongly of its authenticity. I would also like to learn more about this particular incident.... and would love to read Max's take on the radar comments as well.

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Postby ScaRZ » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:04 pm

I'm a member of Democratic Underground and this was posted by a first-hand witness almost two months before the story broke.

purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Wed Nov-08-06 01:16 AM
Original message
UFO sighting at O'hare International

Edited on Wed Nov-08-06 01:17 AM by purduejake

I just finished reading "Voices of the Universe" by Suzanne Ward earlier this week and know many people are fans, so I thought this may be an appropriate place to post this message:

I'm an employee for a major airline at ORD and received a radio call from an employee concerning a flying object around his gate. I JUST finished reading Ward's book, so am really interested in such things. Anyway, I ran outside to see a dark metallic oval shaped disk hovering over the gate. I pointed it out to a colleague who agreed he hadn't seen anything like it before. I confirmed the sighting to our operations center and after about a minute, it zipped to the east and disappeared.

I drove over to the gate and the employees stated the object was rotating and looked like a metallic frisbee about 500-1000 feet directly above them. To make this even more interesting, nobody really looks directly up in our dangerous environment, but the employee said he felt compelled to look up for some unknown reason. The ceiling at the time was OVC 1900 ft. Our operations center was contacted and the pilots of the aircraft at the gate were notified and they too witnessed the object by opening the front windows and looking for themselves. 10-15 people witnessed this UFO and of all people, airline employees know what an airplane or helicopter looks like!

The FAA was contacted and there were no radar blips. A few of our employees were upset about this sighting, but were not afraid. They just had trouble accepting what they just saw and exactly what it means.

What do you think these displays are for? Why over the world's busiest airport in daylight of all places? Your thoughts?


***MOD edit - fixed quotes and made link easier to see
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Postby Max » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Hi Serpentine and everybody.

Interesting sighting, eh?

I had to laugh when I was reading the FAA's reaction to this. They are so predictable. They would rather lie than get involved in something like this. The protocol for dealing with the press goes like this: All supervisors on duty have the responsibility for notifying the "Regional Office" when there is any hint that the press is involved in something. The Powers-That-Be then get their heads together and call in their "press spokesperson" (there is one per region).
They formulate some kind of press statement, many times in consultation with Washington HQ, and give it to the spokesperson to release. Now, you have to understand that this spokesperson's background is in journalism, not aviation. The closest they come to an aviation background is that sometime in their lives they have seen an airplane and can usually identify one as such, given enough chances. If the press is allowed questions (and don't forget, their aviation background is identical to the spokeperson's) and the questions are not covered in the scripted official version, the goofy answers start to come out (ie. ball lightning on a cloudless day for example) Sometimes it's very entertaining to watch.

IPF don't read this: Does FAA upper management lie? Routinely, sometimes even when they know they are going to be caught. However, the controller, the Union, and even most first-line supervisors, most of whom have very strong loyalties to their workforce, love to expose the FAA with its pants down and embarrass them (there are reasons for this) . That keeps them more honest than anything. Through collective bargaining the union has won certain rights. One of them is that any time there is a controller involved in anything the FAA is investigating (and rarely is a controller not involved) the union is to be have a part in the investigation and be present during all interviews, statements, playing of radar tapes or voice tapes, etc. Upper management finds it difficult to cover anything up when this is done.

Balloons. Give me a break. Whenever you hear this explanation keep the following in mind:
1. There are two types of weather balloons: Radiosonde (sp?) balloons and base-layer balloons. Radiosonde balloons are huge. I.m sure you've seen pictures of them in regards to the Roswell crash. They are released from relatively remote locations due to their size and concerns for their interfering with any aircraft. NEVER released from anywhere near major airports. A Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) is put out and publicized well in advance and is on record. The second type is that used to estimate the height of the base layer of clouds. Usually during overcast conditions since you can't aim them at a cloud. The meteorologist or controller will fill the balloon with a measured amount of helium to assure a predetermined rate of ascent and then time, with a stopwatch, the time it takes to reach the base of the clouds, thus giving them the height. Helium makes things RISE, not hover. They are somewhat bigger than a basketball (probably two to three times as large) and at 1900 feet they would be a little dot in the sky. They come in orange for nighttime operations and charcoal gray for daytime. Since the clouds are also usually gray during overcasts (duh!) the supply of orange goes first and you are left with the gray ones if you haven't resupplied. However these balloons are rarely if ever used anymore except at small airports. They have been replaced with a system the FAA paid billions of dollars for, that shines a beam of light at the base of the clouds and measures the time it takes for it to reflect back to determine the height. It can estimate several layers if the clouds are where it shines the beam. (It also measures wind, wind shear, temperature, dew point and barometric pressure). You would have to have just come out of the deepest recesses of the jungle to confuse one of these balloons for a ufo even if one was used near a major terminal. (we found use for them in one place I worked: we tethered 3 together and put a sheet over them one Halloween night and let them rise to the tower windows-and succeeded in scaring the crap out of the swivel-head up there, but I digress).

Weather phenomena. Give me another break. In addition to the requirement at major terminals to have a trained meteorologist present at the airport whenever there are flight operations (many are 24x7), the controllers receive extensive training in weather. Especially since the crash at Dallas many years ago which was caused by thunderstorm/microbursts. If you are a meteorologist or a controller and you are not in tune to ANY and All weather phenomena that may be in your area, then you are simply not doing your job. BTW, I've never heard of weather leaving a hole in the clouds that disappeared after a few minutes, have you? The same expensive weather monitoring equipment I mentioned also makes a written record of hourly observations or any so called "special observations" that it automatically performs whenever the weather changes.

Lights. I love this one. First of all, it's illegal to have any lights in an airport that shine upwards except the runway lights and taxiway lights (and the rotating airport beacon). In fact even the street lights on the streets surrounding an airport have to have the top cover in place, by law, so as not to shine upwards. Also, once you've worked in an environment for any length of time, wether you are a controller or a terminal worker at United, you become very familiar with all of the lights in the sorrounding area. The human mind is very visually oriented. A controller can even detect when a local radio tower is WITHOUT lights in a certain location because he's used to seeing them there every night. And when was the last time you had a religious experience over a light shining upwards? And pilots were notified? And the tower was called? And people came running out to see it? Even a manager who I'm sure was busy at United? (those guys really work for a living) Over a simple light? Quotes:""" The sighting occurred during daylight, about 4:30 p.m., just before sunset. """ "That night was a perfect atmospheric condition in terms of low [cloud] ceiling and a lot of airport lights. When the lights shine up into the clouds, sometimes you can see funny things. That's our take on it."""" Somebody please help me stop laughing!

The Military. Another good one. Yeah, that's what the military needs: to conduct tests of unknown craft over O'Hare International! Military excercises are very well publicized by NOTAMS and by other means so that everybody is playing from the same sheet of music. They are NEVER conducted over major airports or even in busy airspace so as to reduce the chances of an accident. Only over open ranges, such as Nellis and others, which are prohibited to civilian aircraft, can the military just launch a test flight without telling anybody. There are Warning Areas, IR routes (for IFR training), VR routes (for VFR training) and offshore areas along the coasts available to the military for training. These are coordinated in advance with a telephone call and then the aircraft itself will make contact upon entry into one of these and again on exit when it is all finished. All other aircraft in the vicinity are either warned off or prohibited depending on the area's status. You can just imagine the uproar there would be if a military test or training caused an accident. The military doesn't need this nor wants it. They've got plenty of space to do their thing without going to major airports or busy airspace. Keep this in mind when you hear people attributing sightings to military testing.

Radar confirmation. As many of us know, there are two types of systems: primary and secondary. Primary radar works on the principal of bouncing radar waves off aluminum (or whatever) and sensing how long those waves took to travel there and back. Secondary radar works by interrogating an aircraft's transponder (or military IFF) and displays the transponder's information on the controller's radar scope (altitude, speed, aircraft identification, heading, etc).
Most small towers don't have their own radar. They rely on slaves to the radars of nearby facilities. En-route Centers work primarily with secondary radar since they work primarily with IFR aircraft which are REQUIRED to have a transponder and fly under the umbrella of Air Traffic Control.

Facilities like O'Hare (among many others) operate with a terminal radar that is a combination of both primary and secondary. These radars can usually see out to 35 or 50 miles or so, and enable the "approach control" and "departure control" guys to work aircraft from the time the tower is done with them, until they hand them off to an EN Route Center (ARTCC). These radars can not only pick up all of the transponder information and the "blip" but can pick up showers/thunderstorms, flocks of birds, and anything of size within the radar beam. Sometimes, even though it's unusual, it will pick up a single large goose or similar bird but not usually. Depending on the size of the object, the height of the object and the distance from the antenna it may or may not pick something up much smaller than a Cessna like an ultralight. When it does, it gets everybody's attention as something that doesn't belong there, and an effort is made to determine what that something is, in case it's a wayward idiot. If it is a wayward idiot disruption of the system occurs until contact can be established and the aircraft is no longer an issue. The airspace around the area is usually cleared. These days the wayward idiot will be looking at a couple of F-16's in a few minutes and have an FAA Inspector waiting for him on the ground to discuss for how long the pilot's license should be suspended. That is to say unknown "blips" are just not ignored. There was no chance of an unknown aircraft having "snuck" in there.

Keep in mind that even we backwards humans have technology that will defeat radar. From certain paints that absorb radar waves to certain shapes that scatter the radar waves and only a few make it back to the antennae. And who knows what else they've come up with in the last few years that's still in the "black projects" category. For all we know the UFO's will absorb radar waves since the theorists say that any antigravity devices would rely on certain effects of the electromagnetic spectrum. Radar is just part of that same thing just different frequency for the waves.

Sometimes, after the fact, the radar tapes are played and a very small object will appear on the tape which was so small that the controller at the time ignored it because it was irrelevant in his judgement due to the size. The union is always present, remember, during these tape playbacks if a controller's judgement is in question. If not in question, FAA management is free to play the tapes privately for their own amusement and may not wish to comment on an object seen during playback that the controller ignored. We've all heard of many instances where visual sightings were made and no radar evidence is available. Maybe, maybe not.

Max
Last edited by Max on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:24 am

"IPF don't read this" lol thats the same as twisting my arm and making me read it. Which by the way I thank you those are things I knew nothing about. And the only people I am angry at is the faa person "Cory" and her supervisors. I,ve never been able to understand how people can say some of the things they do and look at themselves in the mirror every morning.
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Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:46 pm

Max wrote:Radar confirmation. As many of us know, there are two types of systems: primary and secondary. Primary radar works on the principal of bouncing radar waves off aluminum (or whatever) and sensing how long those waves took to travel there and back. Secondary radar works by interrogating an aircraft's transponder (or military IFF) and displays the transponder's information on the controller's radar scope (altitude, speed, aircraft identification, heading, etc).


Hey Max - do you know what the Primary radar's technical limitations are in terms of metals/materials aircraft is made of? Obviously for aircraft without a transponder, secondary is useless. However Primary radar is dependant on the radar waves properly bouncing off of the solid craft. Correct me if I'm wrong, but current military stealth technology works in two ways - The airplane's shape and the material it is covered in. The shape has flat surfaces and sharp edges (the less "rounded" the better) so that the radar reflects away at an angle. Secondary the material covering the craft absorbs radar energy well. However - the best they can do (as far as we know) is make the aircraft appear on the screen with a radar signature of a small bird and not an aircraft.

So a couple of things bother me about the comment that no radar signature was found for the sighting. Either they're completely lying about that....or whatever technology was used to stealth the craft was one that could absorb all of the radar energy (since the craft was allegedly completely rounded...so no radar energy would be reflected at an angle).

Am I correct in assuming that the only way for an object to have absolutely no radar signature would be for that object to completely absorb the radar energy....?

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Postby Max » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:58 pm

ryguy wrote:
Max wrote:.

Am I correct in assuming that the only way for an object to have absolutely no radar signature would be for that object to completely absorb the radar energy....?

-Ry


Yes and no. They are working on being able to scatter a bigger percentage of the waves. Don't forget, if a B1 appears to be the size of a big bird, what would a much smaller object appear as? And, in many cases the reported size of these objects are not as big. This one in particular was mentioned in the story as being maybe 6 to 24 ft long. Although that is prone to huge errors due to most witnesses not being able to estimate their size correctly.

More significantly, theoretically, if the target could change the frequency of radar waves being directed at it the echoes wouldn't make sense to the antenna. The one combat loss of a F-117 was over Bosnia. The reason it was shot down by a missile was because the rebel factions were using very old long-wave radar that picked up the aircraft. Ooops. Apparently they were designed to defeat more modern short-wave radar. So, if a type of jamming could be devised that would confuse those radar waves into behaving differently, you would have total radar stealth. Also, as I said, if the aircraft (alien or otherwise) is surrounded by an electromagnetic field, due to it' propulsion system or other reason, that could very well have the same effect.

Radar has many limitations, for example a light shower doesn't show up many times. A heavy shower, having many more raindrops shows up better. But at longer distances two thunderstorms will look like a single cell. If they get closer to the antenna the radar is able to show the space between them where an aircraft could possibly fly through. If you turn up the power of the beam, the radar's ability goes way up. But there are reasons not to do this. There is also a phenomenon called anomolous propagation where certain atmospheric conditions cause the radar waves to bounce along the ground and this causes "ground clutter" on a scope. Modern air traffic radars are able to eliminate most of this by having a feature that eliminates all non-moving echoes from the display. If an object is hovering, absolutely still it probably would not show up. There is a button on the radar console to turn off this feature but nobody ever uses it.

If you're getting the sense that it's all very complex and not as cut and dried as most people think, you would be absolutely right.

And, the FAA lies a lot. :?
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Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:24 pm

One more writeup - this one by Davenport:

CHICAGO-- On Tuesday, November 7, 2006, at 16:30 PM, Federal authorities at O'Hare Airport received a report that approximately a dozen witnesses were observing a small, round disc-shaped object, metallic in appearance, which hovered over Gate C 17 at that airport.

The object was first spotted by an employee, working on the ramp, who was engaged in "pushing back" Flight 446, departing Chicago for Charlotte, NC. The employee reported to his supervisors that the object appeared to be almost directly above his location at Gate C 17, it appeared to be perfectly round, and that its size was approximately equal to a U. S. quarter, held at arm's length. The object had a metallic appearance, according to the first witness, and it appeared to him to be spinning. The first witness apprised the flight crew of Flight 446 of the existence of the object above their aircraft, and we believe both the pilot and copilot were witness to the bizarre object, as well. The witness also contacted his supervisors, who also witnessed the object, which was visible for approximately 2 minutes.

At the end of that time, the object was seen to suddenly accelerate straight up at a very rapid pace, and it "shot" through the solid overcast, which was at 1,900 feet at the time. The witness added that the object appeared to leave a "hole" in the clouds, where it had streaked upwards through the overcast. Both the Federal Aviation Administration and Transportation Security Administration were apprised of the event at the time it was occurring, and personnel in one, or more, of the towers at O'Hare may have witnessed the object, possibly with binoculars. The FAA apparently reported that the object was not visible on radar, although that fact has not been confirmed at the time of this writing. We hope to be able to release more information about the incident at some time in the near future. In the meantime, we would like to invite anyone who may have been personal witness to the event to submit a report of their sighting, using our Online Report Form. We would be most grateful if you would indicate in your report where you were located, at the time of the sighting, and what the object looked like, from your vantage point. --.

Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
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Postby Hydden » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:51 pm

Coast to Coast AM talked about this in a segment that I've downloaded. I haven't listened to it yet, but they *did* have a mention of it on a Novemer 14/15 show so, they were right on top of the report.

I'll let you guys know if there's anything else to add from them once I listen to the new one.

Hydden


Edit: Here's the synopsis of the first hour of the show:

In the first hour, Sam Maranto, the Dir. of Illinois MUFON and UFO witness Don Wilkinson discussed Chicago area sightings, including the Nov. 7th incident at O'Hare Airport, which has recently garnered mainstream press. The witnesses are veteran employees of the airline industry, which lends the case additional credibility, noted Maranto. Wilkinson described videotaping a sighting near Chicago's Midway Airport in Oct. 2005. He saw three blinking red lights which he determined were coming from a large triangular craft. During the evening, callers shared their UFO sightings as well, with a focus on incidents in Illinois and Wisconsin.
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Postby Hidden Hand » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:33 pm

NUFORC has 2 witness reports in their database:
http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/053/S53392.html
http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/053/S53541.html

in the 2nd link above, the witness states:
We had to contiune moving the aircraft to the hangar. After parking I noticed the craft of no longer there but there was an almost perfect circle in the cloud layer were the craft had been. The hole disappeared a few minutes later.


in the 1st link above, the witness states:
After about a minute, I saw the aircraft zip to the east and disappeared.


NUFORC also has some info on their front page:
http://www.nuforc.org/ including a 1/4/07 update


[Commentary: I find it odd that some of the reports say the UFO departed to the east and some of the reports say it departed straight up and "punched a hole in the clouds".]


Also - http://ufowatchdog.com/dolan_cnn.html
Transcript of journalist Hilkevitch & Richard Dolan on CNN re: O'Hare UFO.
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Postby Max » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:29 pm

Yes, as always, discrepancies start to come out. Went straight up, went east. Was at 700 ft (pilot). Was at 1000 ft. Was at 1500 ft. Was rotating. Was not rotating. But, I wouldn't make too much out of that. The witnesses, with the exception of the pilot are probably not used to estimating heights and therefore you could expect a wide range. As for movement, well.... I remember reading many years ago a study done by the FBI regarding witnesses descriptions of bank robberies. The variety of descriptions by witnesses seeing the same thing was incredible. Yet no one doubted a bank robbery had occurred because of this (lol!) But, if you start to see a variance in the reports of a UFO, immediately peop[le will start using that as a reason to debunk it. (not reffering to you Hidden).

I see United had to finally admit (like the FAA) that it had lied initially and it had been interviewing its people about it. same'o same'o.

And for the first time I learn from a United manager that the next aircraft to use that gate was reporting electrical problems. Would love to know more about that! Don't these interviewers know what type of questions to ask????

And here's perfect example of feeding fodder to those looking for it:

Interviwer Beck:
""Is there a possibility that you think that this is just some sort of military aircraft that we haven`t released that we have?""

Response by:
RICHARD DOLAN, UFO HISTORIAN (pictured left): ""Sure, anything is possible, Glenn.""

Amazing! The response should have been: Think about it! A top secret craft being "tested" at the world's second busiest airport with airplanes landing and taking off. Taking chances of a collision or other accident happening with this as yet unrevealed craft that they want to keep secret. Well, yeah, maybe all of those open ranges in the western and southwestern U.S. were busy and O'Hare was the only place available to test that evening! :flgpig: ](*,)
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:03 pm

allen hynak: swamp gas.

0'hare was built on a swamp. and the swamp creatures resented it. i, even though i'm not a swamp creature, resent it still.

what would you do if you were a swamp creature, max? fight back in the only way you know. no?

please chill out, man.
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Postby Max » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:21 pm

Hey, cartoon? What is your problem?? Be more clear. Chill out about what??
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:57 pm

Max wrote:Hey, cartoon? What is your problem?? Be more clear. Chill out about what??


just being facitious. i guess you need to know me. sorry. a sense of humor is a useful thing.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
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